New motor oil wear problems on older engines

[Ecomike]

Me? Self-conscious? Guilty? Not even. Just wondering whether to respond to your post or not.

As I said, the Chevron dude says the big uproar about zinc is misplaced.

As for the heavier oils, have you thought about Delo in 15W40?

Well I actually have three vehicles, running, right now. My sons 96 Ford Taurus which he bought in Dec '06, V-6, 3.3 l, 179,000 miles, got 10W30 on the first oil change, then went to 10W40 on the second and third for summer time here. It's doing fine.

Then I have an '82 Nissan SD-22, 2.2 L, diesel engine in my 85 Cherokee Pioneer, which has been running 15W40 Shell Rotella T for 5 years now with no problems, mileage unknown! I will be switching to Mobil Delvac 1300 Super for the Nissan in 3 months, because that is all I could find, and all I have left of the non-CJ-4 spec oils for now.

I may try the Mobil Delvac 1300 super (I have 4 gallons to try now), 15w40 in the 87, 4.0 Wagoneer ltd. (4x4), but I am sure I will end up boosting it up with Lucas (qt) and some CD-2 Slob (pt) I recently scored at BigLots (sounds like a drug fix, LOL) since the Lucas is devoid of ZDDP.

I looked real hard already, but could not find any Delo at all on the shelf that was not already CJ-4/SM so I setlled for Mobil. I have never heard anyone that used Mobil 1 oils that did not like them, so I figured maybe the Mobil Delvac would be OK too.

What I am trying to figure out is why it drank 20W50 Castrol Syntech so fast. And there was absolutely no smoke in the exhaust. I was originally running 10W40 Exxon dyno and only using a quart in 3000 miles when the hot oil idle pressure problem popped up last year (9 psig). Since then I started adding Lucas (which has worked great, even quited the lifter ticking noise) to solve the oil pressure problem since the new bearings and high flow oil pump had little effect on the hot idle oil pressure. But then I tried 20W50, castrol Syntech to that would solve the hot oil pressure problem, and boom It was using 1 qt/200 miles and that was AFTER I fixed the massive oil filter adapter o'ring leak. Added 1 qt of Lucas and later 1 qt of straight 50 Exxon dyno juice and no more worries. So right now its got about 2.5 qts of 20W50 Castrol Syntech (SM), 1 qt of Lucas, 1 qt of Exxon 40 wt and 1 qt of exxon 50 wt all mixed up in there..

Why are you so down on Mobil, other than it's synthetic?

 

[bewilderedbeast]

i'm not down on synthetics, jut don't see the need for one in my Jeep.
I do know that the 10W30 Mobil 1 has produced about the highest iron wear rates of any oil I've seen UOA's for in the 4.0.
I've also heard anecdotal reports that it makes the 4.0 noiser.
And finally, I just don't care for the way the company behaves on all levels.
( I also hear they're using Grp III basestocks these days).
Mostly, I'm just loving Havoline. Not that Chevron as a company is an angel, either. But the Hav gives me very excellent UOA results in all areas, the engine is as quiet as you could ask a 4.0 to be, and if I put 6 quarts in, there are still 6 quarts in there when I change it out.
I don't think Mobil 1 sucks or anything, I just prefer to pay less for better results.
I was perfectly happy with Castrol GTX in my Jeep until I did some research (provoked by finding BITOG) and then gave the Chev/Hav a try. Never looked back.
I even used to run 20W50 in my pre-Jeep cars--Daytona, Mustangs, etc.
But these days, I tend to think that the thinner oil is better--up to a point, and as long as you're not burning or leaking a lot.
Maybe I didn't word that right. I think chemistry is more important than viscosity, up to a point.
I'm not bold, like G, to run 5W20, or even 5W30....:shocked:

 

[Ecomike]

6 quarts in and 6 quarts out I can't argue with! My jeeps love the Chevron fuels (Techron)! I never ran anything over straight 40 wt, or 10W40 until recently with this strangly behaving Renix 87 beast.

At $5/qt the 20W50 Castrol Syntech qt/200 miles consumption rate was a bit expensive! The way my engine drank and leaked it there is no way it was too viscous!

About G, only time will tell if he is brave, or foolhardy with his 5w20 trials. I'm not that brave either.

5w20 in mine would be like trying to lube it with HOT AIR! :laugh3:

i'm not down on synthetics, just don't see the need for one in my Jeep......
......Mostly, I'm just loving Havoline. Not that Chevron as a company is an angel, either. But the Hav gives me very excellent UOA results in all areas, the engine is as quiet as you could ask a 4.0 to be, and if I put 6 quarts in, there are still 6 quarts in there when I change it out.
I even used to run 20W50 in my pre-Jeep cars--Daytona, Mustangs, etc.
But these days, I tend to think that the thinner oil is better--up to a point, and as long as you're not burning or leaking a lot.
Maybe I didn't word that right. I think chemistry is more important than viscosity, up to a point.
I'm not bold, like G, to run 5W20, or even 5W30....:shocked:

 

[Mike1331]

Did she have an indian, asian accent? Sonds like outsourcing to me, LOL. On second thought Patti Cooper must be a blond name.

The guy at STP I contacted by email said they had discontinued Red a while back. The Red had twice as much ZDDP as the blue, not the other way around (which you knew). That WAS some really bad, backwards advice for sure.

Really pays to know the answer before you ask the question. First thing they teach trial lawyers is don't ask the question if you don't already know the answer.

So the STP red that everybody wants is the bottle that is labled STP- OIL treatment- 4 Cylinder? I found some of this at my local napa store, it was in a red bottle and it was the same size as the blue bottle.

 

[RyanM]

So the STP red that everybody wants is the bottle that is labled STP- OIL treatment- 4 Cylinder? I found some of this at my local napa store, it was in a red bottle and it was the same size as the blue bottle.

Yea its got more ZDDP adds.

 

[Mike1331]

Sweet, i'll go and pick up whatever they have left in stock today. Will I have a sufficient amount of zddp adds if I use 1 bottle of the stp red, 4.5 quarts of any api SL/CI-4 (most likely shell rotella 15w40), and a quart of lucas stabilizer?
My baby is a crude old beast so she likes the thicker stuff.
87/4.0/190k

 

[Flash]

You guys perseverate on this way too much. If you've got higher spring rates and whatnot, then get worried. You also put too much weight in the numbers. None of you (probably- speculation) run your oil change out to the point of depleting the lower level of ZDDP that's in there. It decays on a per RPM basis.

This is obviously the cheapest way to achieve lower wear in flat tappet applications. Even SM must meet the Sequence III-G endurance test. http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTests/IIIGtest/default.htm

I don't know if this has been covered yet
BUT, that test is with a roller cam eng (comparing apples to oranges)

2nt I'm not a snake additive type of guy But i have used eng restore and it works.............Dust it have the ZDDP? I don't know.

I had been using it in my 300,000+ XJ until my dissy started making noise and had to replace it. Was it the restore, with 300,000 on the clock,.......Probably not.


flash.

 

[jeepboy381]

I just got done talking to a family friend who for a living tests oil somewhere in Texas. I asked him about this Zinc problem and he said that the levels are lower than they were but as long as you use a good quality oil like Mobile 1 or castrol you should be fine. He said it might wear a little faster but that there is nothing to worry about. He said they have tested everything and the only oil he uses is Mobile 1.

 

[scottmcneal]

do you mean i can get only 300 thou from my motor? time to sale it... lol

 

[Ecomike]

Actually its more like comparing walnuts to peaches, LOL.:laugh:

I found some info on Restore at a UK site, seems they to use colloidal silver-copper-lead alloy particles that pass through the oil filter, as they are submicron sized, and they plate out in the worn areas of the cylinders to restore compression. Have not tried it myself, but I may the chance to test it soon on a jeep I am about to buy that is reported to have low compression (so called blown cyl) on #5 cyl, but it still drives.

I don't think restore would replace ZDDP, or visa versa, I suspect the Restore product is meant for more severe compression loss and restoration in pits and wear in the cylinders walls where as the ZDDP is meant for repeated attachment, wear removal, followed by reattachment of the ZDDP to the metal surface. In other words the ZDDP acts more like a thin film of oil that is wiped off then replated right back on, whereas the Restore product goes on and stays on with a much thicker layer, allowing you to extend the life of an engine with lots of wear and blowby. Restores claims to be able to "restore" an engine with lots of blowby back to normal blowby rates for about 7,000 miles.

On the SLOB oil additive topic (Street Legal Oil Additive by CD-2), I managed to score about a dozen bottles at two BIG Lots stores in the Pasadena area. The store at the Almeda mall in south west Houston on I-45 still had a good 8 to 10 bottles left after I stocked up, maybe more left. So check out the Big Lots stores. They also have a nice selection of injector fuel additive (cleaners) for $1.00 a bottle.

I don't know if this has been covered yet
BUT, that test is with a roller cam eng (comparing apples to oranges)

2nt I'm not a snake additive type of guy But i have used eng restore and it works.............Dust it have the ZDDP? I don't know.

I had been using it in my 300,000+ XJ until my dissy started making noise and had to replace it. Was it the restore, with 300,000 on the clock,.......Probably not.


flash.

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

I've got about 50 bottles of SLOB now, from the two BigLots in my area.
One store still has about a dozen on their shelves, but I figured I had enough for awhile.....

Most were priced at $1, some at $1.99.

 

[RyanM]

Wreckin what the shelf life on that stuff is?

And the life of these 5 qts of Penzzoil API SH I found

 

[Runnin'OnEmpty]

The stuff should keep for several years, if stored in a cool dry place.
Mine's in the basement; near constant temperature year around.

 

[themud]

Since I didnt feel like reading all 12 pages of this thread thought Id let you guys know that when I was at the dealership today, I asked about their oil that the offer mopar oil 15-40 weight oil and guess what it was ci-4 / sl-4 grade stuff an it was 4.85 a quart(ouch its not even synethic). But they guy offered me 10% off for a bulk discount I told him Id buy a couple of cases from him, so it looks like Ill be buying oil from the dealership till aftermarket gets their crap together again...The things we do for our jeeps(It warms my heart)...
themud

 

[RyanM]

SCORE!!

Picked up 2 bottles of SLOB today. Couldn't find anymore.
Virgin Oil Analysis

Zinc: 4898 ppm (4700)
Phosphorus: 4921 ppm (4300)
Calcium: 4279 ppm (7800)
Moly: 0 ppm (0)
Vis @100C: 29.5 cSt (28)

Are they(biglots) still getting this stuff in on the truck.


Saw about 50 bottles of this

 

[RichP]

If you do score a case or more of those additives I would recommend you do a flip of the case every 3 months or so to keep it from settling. I buy my mobil-1 grease a case at a time and flip it every couple of months to keep the liquid from settling to one end of the tube.

 

[Rob Mayercik]

Should have mentioned this a while ago, but just remembered. Anyway:

A couple of weeks ago, my '84 Dodge spit a seal out of the steering rack. I limped it to the nearest shop (the local speed shop/general mechanic) for repair.

At any rate, along the way (took a couple weeks to get one that he could fab mounts for to make fit - long story), I asked him about this ZDDP thing. His opinion is that I needn't worry about this old '82 or my XJ, since I'm running stock spring pressures.

Take this as you will, but that's one professional mechanic/hot rodder's opinion.

Rob

 

[MudDawg]

This whole oil/cam wear thing came up as the result of a large number of aftermarket performance cams that were run with high spring pressure failing.

If you have a stocker with a zillion miles, I wouldn't worry either....Two of four of my Heeps DO run stout springs, so it matters to me....I found enough Delvac to keep me in oil for a couple of years for my hotrods.

 

[Jay Welch]

Hi,

I'm just coming into this discussion and I hope I'm not repeating what someone has already stated as I have not read every post on this lengthy topic.

It's my understanding that a generic statement can be made that this only affects flat tappet engines during the cam lobe/tappet break-in period.

The following is some conversation that I saved form a Triumph mail list that I belong to.

Good luck,
Jay in MA

================================

Engine Oil - Castrol GTX 20W50 has been widely recommended in the past but an an article in the March 2002 British Marque written by Gil Wistrup of the Jaguar Association of Central New York strongly advises the use of "CG-4" (compression ignition) diesel rated engine oils which contain a significant amount of ZDDP anti oxidation additive. "CG-4" engine oils contain about 80% more ZDDP & about 50% more detergent than "SJ" (spark ignition) rated oils. It’s supposed to be excellent for cars that sit idle a good part of their life. Chevron Delo 400 still has most of its zinc included but diesel oil is next on the hit list for reductions in ZDDP. Buy only diesel oils with the older CI-4 designation as CJ-4 has lowered levels of ZDDP. CI-4 should be available in most places through 2010.
Valvoline Racing VR1 20w50 is close. Both are supposed to have more zinc than most of the other "SJ" oil manufacturers. The Valvoline product is available at Autozone for $2.99 per bottle in a case of 12. Valvoline 20W-50 full synthetic is highly recommended for ultimate wear protection.

Now for the latest from Keith Ansell: Latest conclusion is that running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50 GTX is ok. You should break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol. New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best with the Redline synthetic 10W-40 or 10W-30.


1) Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in. 10W-40, 10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolutely NOT GOOD are any oil, any brand that is marked “Energy Conserving” in the API “Donut” on the bottle. These oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy our cams. Virtually all “Diesel” rated oils are acceptable.

2) Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for the break-in of new motors. This oil has one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and tappets. Break in for 3000 miles using this oil.

3) Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the additive package we need.

4) The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the “Energy Conservation” oils that we cannot use.

5) Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new engines! Proper seating of rings, with today’s lubricants is taking that long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.

6) The “Energy Conservation“ trend was first lead by automakers to increase mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don’t have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for most of us.


From a major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane) - They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines. Use their additive for at least the first 500 miles.

From Redline - They are well aware of the problem and still use the correct amounts of those additives in their products. They are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” oils that destroy flat tappet engines. They just build the best lubricants possible. Use their street formulated synthetics.

From Castrol - We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

From our major oil distributor that distributes Castrol, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils - After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem. The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline.

From General Motors (Chevrolet) - Add their oil fortifier (EOS) to your oil. It’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can. This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time.

From a representative of a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) - He stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations.

From American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) - Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

From a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer - He restored older British Motor bikes and was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding.

From Comp Cams, Tech Bulletin #225: Flat Tappet Camshafts - They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil.

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) - Use oils rated for diesel use. Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. It's about the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.

ZDDP - For you science buffs, ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to “Stand” the molecule up on the metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines, therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines. Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

 

[Ecomike]

Considering the searing heat and sheer forces as well as the oxidation and water / free radical exposure that it survives for thousands of miles in an engine, I would expect it to be chemically stable in the bottle for decades. Some have suggested that it needs to be well shaken and completely remixed before dispensing it, if it has been sitting up for a long, long time.

ZDDP is a multi-purpose additive. One function is antioxidation protection of the oil, just like Vitamin A, C, & E protect the body from free radical oxidation damage in the body. The new synthetic oils do not need as much oxidation protection as the dyno oils need. ZDDP is also an anti wear additive. As far as I am concerned, IMNSHO, the lower ZDDP levels in the latest SM gas engine oils and the new CJ-4 diesel engine oils will increase overall engine wear rates in the older engines, even after they have been properly broken in.

Jay, Nice find, thanks for posting it, but I disagree that the Jeep 4.0 engine, after breaking does not need the higher the ZDDP levels in the oil. Yes, there are other newer anti wear additives in some of the new formulations, but no one is testing these new oil formulas on the older engine designs for wear rates much less comparing them to known wear rates of the older ZDDP based oils in our engines. The test engines currently used in the current (new) API tests do not have the high (200-220 lb) spring pressures, or surface cam/lifter pressures that out STOCK Jeep 4.0 engines have, they (the current API test engines, GM...) have much less cam/lifter surface to surface sliding pressure as they use roller cams, and they have much lower spring pressures than the Jeep 4.0.

Detroit has been wrong before about changes, so called new design improvements that they brought to the market and so have the oil companies. They usually go through a learning experience at the new car buyers/owners expense, before the school of hard knocks teaches them what really works best. ZDDP has been a major ingredient in motor oils, and other lubricant fluids since the 1930s.

Me, I will be sticking with what I know works, and that is ZDDP.

The stuff should keep for several years, if stored in a cool dry place.
Mine's in the basement; near constant temperature year around.