New motor oil wear problems on older engines

Quote?
geeaea said:
Jo, Einstein ...this is REDLINE'S chemical engineer I'm quoting. My own pal, who belongs to STLE ..the Society of Tribologists and Lub Engineers, says that RL's chief chemist has forgotten more than he'll ever learn.
Click to expand...

Now that's a good one. I'd be quite embarrased if I forgot more than I ever learned!:laugh3:
 
Ecomike said:
Well one of my rear tires through a steel belt off at 60 mph on the highway today.:scared: The tire still held air but it was treadless:rolleyes:.

It beat the Hell out of my tail light though. Can I blaim this on ZDDP depletion in the tire rubber?:rolleyes: Perhaps on global warming.:rolleyes: Never mind I think the Hiesenburg uncertainty principle fits this one better.:laugh3:

Anyways, while at Wally World stocking up on new treads, I found several NEW IMPROVED Mobil 1 oils, including 2 high mileage Mobil 1 formulas that were brand new, They said NEW right on the front in big bold letters, and they had API SL labels ONLY on them!!!!!! Absolutly no mention of the API SM compliance!

The new labels also specifically listed "includes additional anti wear additives for older engines" on the new labels. This was the NEW HIGH MILEAGE Mobil 1 oils. Also interesting was Mobil 1 EP oil containers (which I thought we were told had higher ZDDP in them) but they had API SM on the labels.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if they know something?

I did see Quaker State gallons still on the shelf with API SL only, and a new (I think it is new) Penzoil 20W50 with API SL only on the label (cases of it!).
Click to expand...

Well, why not put your mind at ease and pony up for some VOA's?
Why would you want to run a 20W50 anyway?
And Mobil 1, at least in the 10W30 doesn't do much for wear in the 4.0, at least relative to such regular oils as Castrol, Havoline, and Valvoline.
 
Ecomike said:
Quote?


Now that's a good one. I'd be quite embarrased if I forgot more than I ever learned!:laugh3:
Click to expand...


I've probably got a grammatical error or two in there. I didn't say that my pal isn't RL chief chemical engineer. <shrug>

btw- I don't have the zinc numbers ..but for phos there's no limit in the CJ4/SM in the 40 weight as long as the diesel spec is first.

That is, 5w/10w/15w40 CJ/SM has no limit on phos.

This should bring you some comfort.
 
Zuki-Ron said:
Pffft...



Change your oil at regular intervals, change your filter, don't use Penzoil for any reason, and take off that funny aluminum foil cap.
Click to expand...

Can I assume that both of those last statements were tongue in cheek? There is no "bad oil" the exists today that meets current spec's. You may find some SA or SC oil at Dollar General that I would avoid. PZ and QS got some bad reps during the early-mid 70's due to industry-wide deficiencies in motor oils. Quaker State and Pennzoil were two leading brands ..and suffered the most fall out. Most oils use Group II or Group II+ basestocks and the only (mostly) Group I oils are those that are used for carriers for additives.
 
Dare I add this ... Mobil has another dino oil (another loooooooooong call today).

Mobil Delvac MX (not the Super 1300) 15w-40


In addition to its reformulated Mobil Delvac 1300 Super, in October ExxonMobil will introduce a new member to its Mobil Delvac line, Mobil Delvac MX 15W-40, which will exceed the API CI-4 Plus specification.
Click to expand...
For our customers in the off-highway industry, Mobil Delvac MX 15W-40 will offer an ideal solution to help protect and extend the life of their equipment with a product that has proven performance in engines that require both CI-4 and CI-4 Plus oils.
Click to expand...
Quotes taken from here ... http://www.mobildelvac.com/usa-english/lubes/products_services/lubricants/Delvac_news.asp
 
I just got off the phone with a Chevron/Havoline Lube-Tek(ain't it cute how they spell that?)
He told me that Chevron and others are trying to figure out where anyone got the idea that zinc is being reduced. He claims that only phos is getting reduced, and is being replaced with an equally effective substance that is used in aircraft engines. He says nobody has any reason to worry about excess wear in any part of their engine, flat-tappet or otherwise.
He told me that for the 4.0, assuming it's not consuming much, plain old Havoline or Chevron 10W30 is an excellent choice.(of course he'd say Hav/Chev, but you can read it to mean most any SM oil) If there is consumption that bugs you enough, the High Mileage versions are thicker and do have somewhat higher levels of the additives.
In short, relax and drive.
 
You can't believe some of the people at some of these places.
Here's my e-mail response from STP regarding availability of Red product:

July 19, 2007
Reference Number: 4985879
Dear Mr. XXXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting us about STP Oil Treatment - 4-Cylinder. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

We are sorry you are having problems locating this product. I was not able to locate any retailer in your area carrying this product. You may want to do a search at www.google.com for retailers who sell it online.

If you are not able to find it you may use the STP Oil Treatment in the blue bottle. This has the same additives, you would only use half the bottle added to a warm engine. You would then take a short drive to allow the treatment to blend with the oil. I hope this information helps you.


Again, thank you for contacting us.


Sincerely,


PCOOPERblank.bmp



Patti Copper


Consumer Response Representative


Consumer Services

How simply scientific.
I stated my concerns with ZDDP etc. in the mail I sent to them.
 
bewilderedbeast said:
Why would you want to run a 20W50 anyway?
And Mobil 1, at least in the 10W30 doesn't do much for wear in the 4.0, at least relative to such regular oils as Castrol, Havoline, and Valvoline.
Click to expand...

First question, answer, I don't live in Seattle or Canada, for one, LOL.
I live in the humid, hot, oil capital of the world Houston, Tx. Overnight lows are like 78 F here. Second reason is to keep hot idle oil pressure up to 21 psig. Third, I have no oil consumption with 20W50 dyno.

I was using 10W40 Exxon (when I could find it) when I bought it at 225,000 miles, but I had, have no history on the engine. After about 10,000 miles the hot idel oil pressure dropped to 9 to 10 psig. I pulled the oil pan, installed a new high flow oil pump, check and replaced the lower crank and rod bearings, even though they were still in spec, put it back together and hot idle oil pressure was still low. It was still not not using or burning oil when fedd 10W40 dyno, but I could not handle sleepless nights worrying about 9 lbs of hot idle oil pressure! The oil pressure sensor had already been replaced recently (stuck at 80 psi....), and the OP gauge acts normal at cold start up and cruising speeds. Going to 20W50, plus 1 quart of Lucas oil additive gave me 21 pis minimum at 600 rpm hot idle in park for 30 minutes. Oh it has 248,000 miles on it now and runs great.

I tried 20W50 Castrol Syntec in December and it promptly went to using and leaking 1 quart every 200 miles.


Several people here have been using Mobil 1 10W30 (or 5W30?) for a hell of a long time (someone posted 300,000 miles on it for one engine as I recall) in the same 4.0, with no problems, but those engines were weened on Mobil 1 from the get go.
 
I lived on the NC coast for the first several years I had my Cherokee and it gets friggin' hot there too. 10W30 was fine. A lot of people still believe thicker is better. My co-worker has an 89 XJ with 289K on it when he got rid of it, and it was running fine, no issues. 10W30 all the time.
Mobil 1. Ah...
Certainly a 4.0 will go hundreds of thousands of miles on it and run fine. But it will also do it on a good dino oil and expereince less wear. So, if you can get 7ppm of iron wear instead of 30-50, why not?
But in the end, whatever lets us feel better is the way to go, it won't make a lot of difference when it's all said and done.
 
I knew what you were trying to say, it was just such a great opportunity for a good laugh, I could not resist temptation.

I have seen that claim in a couple of BITOG posts, but have yet to find out who started that rumor. Do you have any API published proof of this? As far as I am concerned it just adds credence to my claim that the multiple API labels are just meaningless Blather (Lies to delude the end user!) now. So if it says SM by itself it has P limit, if it says SM with something else it has no limit. Does that apply on Tuesday with a full moon?

If true, that just makes the API "SM" label meaningless BS. I have been doing some reading on the API tests and the scoring system they use that qualifies the oils for the API labels and I must say I am not too impressed with that either. So far I can not make heads or tails out the nonsense.

I still say I will stick with the 77 year old road tested (since ZDDP as been used since 1930) stuff that we know works.

I WANT MY ZDDP!


geeaea said:
I've probably got a grammatical error or two in there. I didn't say that my pal isn't RL chief chemical engineer. <shrug>

btw- I don't have the zinc numbers ..but for phos there's no limit in the CJ4/SM in the 40 weight as long as the diesel spec is first.

That is, 5w/10w/15w40 CJ/SM has no limit on phos.

This should bring you some comfort.
Click to expand...
 
You're not going to get real answers from a Lube-Tek, maybe a grease job though, LOL.

IMHO, real answers only come from the handfull of chemists and chemical engineers that do the real work. The phone systems are designed to keep them locked in the basement lab working. Its almost impossible to ever get them on the phone.

ZDDP has zinc and phosphorus in the same molecule. Can't get rid of one without losing the other, unless they use a different zinc compound like a zinc carbamate, but then its new, experimental and not widely tested and proven yet, at least in my book.

bewilderedbeast said:
I just got off the phone with a Chevron/Havoline Lube-Tek(ain't it cute how they spell that?)
He told me that Chevron and others are trying to figure out where anyone got the idea that zinc is being reduced. He claims that only phos is getting reduced, and is being replaced with an equally effective substance that is used in aircraft engines. He says nobody has any reason to worry about excess wear in any part of their engine, flat-tappet or otherwise.
He told me that for the 4.0, assuming it's not consuming much, plain old Havoline or Chevron 10W30 is an excellent choice.(of course he'd say Hav/Chev, but you can read it to mean most any SM oil) If there is consumption that bugs you enough, the High Mileage versions are thicker and do have somewhat higher levels of the additives.
In short, relax and drive.
Click to expand...
 
Did she have an indian, asian accent? :rolleyes: Sonds like outsourcing to me, LOL. On second thought Patti Cooper must be a blond name.

The guy at STP I contacted by email said they had discontinued Red a while back. The Red had twice as much ZDDP as the blue, not the other way around (which you knew). That WAS some really bad, backwards advice for sure.

Really pays to know the answer before you ask the question. First thing they teach trial lawyers is don't ask the question if you don't already know the answer.

cygnus58 said:
You can't believe some of the people at some of these places.
Here's my e-mail response from STP regarding availability of Red product:

July 19, 2007
Reference Number: 4985879
Dear Mr. XXXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting us about STP Oil Treatment - 4-Cylinder. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

We are sorry you are having problems locating this product. I was not able to locate any retailer in your area carrying this product. You may want to do a search at www.google.com for retailers who sell it online.

If you are not able to find it you may use the STP Oil Treatment in the blue bottle. This has the same additives, you would only use half the bottle added to a warm engine. You would then take a short drive to allow the treatment to blend with the oil. I hope this information helps you.


Again, thank you for contacting us.


Sincerely,


PCOOPERblank.bmp



Patti Copper


Consumer Response Representative


Consumer Services

How simply scientific.
I stated my concerns with ZDDP etc. in the mail I sent to them.
Click to expand...
 
Why? Are you feeling self conscious, guilty perhaps?:D:roflmao:

Just kidding, no I was reffering to G's post and who ever started the rumor he is was repeating that CJ-4/SM does not really meet API SM limits on phosphorus just becasue the SM is preceeded by CJ-4/.

bewilderedbeast said:
Which rumor? Are you talking to me or G?
Click to expand...
 
Personally I do not think there is that much difference between a 10W and 20W in my climate. Has more to do with the ambient start up temperature, and here we call it a hard freeze when it hits 32 F for an entire hour :shiver: just before dawn. Happens for a few days a year here.

The high temp viscosity, 30 versus 50, has more to do with hot oil pressure and or oil consumption in older worn engines. Mine would go through 10W30 like cr*p through a goose. I go by the oil pressure gauge, and oil consumption for the particular engine in selecting the viscosity grade.

If I had a new engine I would be running 10W30.

I meet a 20 year veteran Chrysler Jeep mechanic a few months ago in a waiting room. We talked for quite some time. He said these old 4.0 engines work best with straight 40 wt oils, no multivisc stuff. He said that's what they recomend at the the dealership, the original first one here, which is still here in Houston. Of course I am sure that was partly based on the lack of cold temperatures here.

bewilderedbeast said:
I lived on the NC coast for the first several years I had my Cherokee and it gets friggin' hot there too. 10W30 was fine. A lot of people still believe thicker is better. My co-worker has an 89 XJ with 289K on it when he got rid of it, and it was running fine, no issues. 10W30 all the time.
Mobil 1. Ah...
Certainly a 4.0 will go hundreds of thousands of miles on it and run fine. But it will also do it on a good dino oil and expereince less wear. So, if you can get 7ppm of iron wear instead of 30-50, why not?
But in the end, whatever lets us feel better is the way to go, it won't make a lot of difference when it's all said and done.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Ecomike said:
Why? Are you feeling self conscious, guilty perhaps?:D:roflmao:

Just kidding, no I was reffering to G's post and who ever started the rumor he is was repeating that CJ-4/SM does not really meet API SM limits on phosphorus just becasue the SM is preceeded by CJ-4/.
Click to expand...

Me? Self-conscious? Guilty? Not even. Just wondering whether to respond to your post or not.

As I said, the Chevron dude says the big uproar about zinc is misplaced.

As for the heavier oils, have you thought about Delo in 15W40?
 
Ecomike said:
You're not going to get real answers from a Lube-Tek, maybe a grease job though, LOL.

IMHO, real answers only come from the handfull of chemists and chemical engineers that do the real work. The phone systems are designed to keep them locked in the basement lab working. Its almost impossible to ever get them on the phone.

ZDDP has zinc and phosphorus in the same molecule. Can't get rid of one without losing the other, unless they use a different zinc compound like a zinc carbamate, but then its new, experimental and not widely tested and proven yet, at least in my book.
Click to expand...

You can easily verify by doing--or looking at someone else's-- VOA's to see how much of what is where....
 
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