New motor oil wear problems on older engines

[Ecomike]

So add full bottle or half of it to oil to make ZDDP right?

(STP blue bottle is half the volume, and the PDF says ZDDP will be raised to 1700 ppm when whole bottle is used with 5 quarts of oil)

STP volume is a lot higher, not lower, and the STP seems to be way too dilute in ZDDP content to do squat for us.

Looks like 2 oz of the 4 oz bottle of the ZDDP Plus product would be plenty to make an API SN oil equal (or higher) in ZDDP content to the old API SL oil spec. 4 oz would take you back to at least the 1980 levels of CH oil spec, pre SL spec, but final ZDDP level will depend on the SN ZDDP content which could be 0 to 600 ppm I think? I have read that unless you are breaking in a new engine or CAM you should not go over 1800 ppm. So for daily driver use, I would not add more tha 2 oz of the ZDDP plus, unless I knew the oil I was using had no ZDDP in it all!!!

 

[AdamG8GXP]

STP volume is a lot higher, not lower, and the STP seems to be way too dilute in ZDDP content to do squat for us.

Looks like 2 oz of the 4 oz bottle of the ZDDP Plus product would be plenty to make an API SN oil equal (or higher) in ZDDP content to the old API SL oil spec. 4 oz would take you back to at least the 1980 levels of CH oil spec, pre SL spec, but final ZDDP level will depend on the SN ZDDP content which could be 0 to 600 ppm I think? I have read that unless you are breaking in a new engine or CAM you should not go over 1800 ppm. So for daily driver use, I would not add more tha 2 oz of the ZDDP plus, unless I knew the oil I was using had no ZDDP in it all!!!

STP was half a quart.
My question was about RIslone

 

[Ecomike]

Note that I read somewhere the last 6 months that the newest API spec, SN oil is now using ZDP instead of ZDDP, but I have not found out what the implication to us of that change is, or how much of the ZDP is in the SN oils, or how well the ZDP works versus the ZDDP used in the past. I did read that that the ZDP was less harmful to the Cat converters (it has less Phosphorous) than ZDDP and they made the move because they seemed to be having problems getting the ZDDP low enough for extended Cat converter life with out causing engine wear problems, or least they hinted at that!!!! LOL!!!!

 

[Ecomike]

STP was half a quart.
My question was about RIslone

Oh, I had not taken a close look at the Risolene. I would go with the ZDDP Plus or Lucas, but the Rislone looks like a decent choice, use a full bottle. I would prefer the ZDDP plus, then the Lucas as best choices because they are not diluted with questionable oils. The Rislone lists mostly paraffin oil on the MSDS. The Parrafin oil may or may not be a as good as the base oil in your API SN oil, it certainly is inferior to synthetic base oils!!!

In my case I have no idea if the Rislone would reduce my 20W50 viscosity!!!

But if I had a choice between STP, Rislone and no additive I would USE the Rislone!!!!! And I would use a full quart if added to API SN spec oil.

IF I was using a diesel oil, like 15W40 with the API CH-4 Plus label I would not add more than 1/2 quart!!!!

 

[Ecomike]

While I disagree with many of this author's statements, there is a lot of good, and interesting info in this 33 page paper:

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

This looks new, updated, just stating to read it:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/api_motor_oil_classifications.htm

More info on ZnDDP chemistry:

http://apps.kemi.se/flodessok/floden/kemamne_eng/zinkdialkyl_eng.htm

 

[Ecomike]

I did some shopping today. I found and bought a bottle of Lucas ZDDP additive, 16 oz for $16, the one I posted the link to below. Also bought a quart of the Rislone ZDDP additive ($8), the one I posted the link for below. Found them at Advanced Auto only, none at AZ or O'reilys!

The Valvoline motorcycle oil 20W50 with the old API specs IS NOT VR-1. The VR-1 is a brand of some sort now and means nothing it seems regarding the API spec, viscosity etc. I found synthetic, non synthetic, Sl and even SN VR-1s on the shelf today, and they were not all motorcycle VR-1s, most were gas engine oils.

 

[Ecomike]

Seems to be e lot of sources now for just ZDDP additive. This one is from a brand name we all trust, REDLINE!!!!

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=121&pcid=1

Bottle (16oz) contains:
33.8 grams total ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate)
17,000 ppm, 7.8 grams Phosphorus (P)
20,500 ppm, 9.4 grams Zinc (Zn)
16.6 grams Sulphur (S)


Increases of antiwear per quart by using one bottle (16oz.): Oil capacity:
Phosphorus Zinc
15 quarts 610 ppm 736 ppm
12 quarts 763 ppm 920 ppm
10 quarts 915 ppm 1104 ppm
8 quarts 1145 ppm 1380 ppm
7 quarts 1307 ppm 1577 ppm
6 quarts 1525 ppm 1840 ppm
5 quarts 1830 ppm 2208 ppm
4 quarts 2288 ppm 2760 ppm
1 quart 9160 ppm 11040 ppm

Half Bottle (8oz.) When Treating:
12 quarts 382 ppm 460 ppm
10 quarts 458 ppm 552 ppm
8 quarts 572 ppm 690 ppm
6 quarts 763 ppm 920 ppm
5 quarts 915 ppm 1104 ppm
4 quarts 1145 ppm 1380 ppm


Here is a new one to me, 20W50, SN,SM,SL that lists the Zn, P, and S content!

http://www.mag1.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=923a5333-328d-458c-ae7a-d2f87066c8f0

 

[Ecomike]

This interesting and worth reading!!!!

http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief2 - ZDDP and Cam Wear - Just Another Engine Oil Myth.pdf

 

[Talyn]

I stand corrected it seems. I must be thinking of the old red bottle of STP which that thread also lists the data on, but I recall talking to the STP chemist back in 2008, I thought I recalled being told one of them was almost pure ZDDP, so those data posts contradict that.

One of the STPs had a high ZDDP content. I seem to recall it being the 4 cylinder version for some reason

I may be thinking of one of the other suppliers that also had a ZDDP additive, one of them was in a red bottle, and GM had several at the time, not sure if those offered any more, but I think there are others offering ZDDP now.

GM has its EOS, which has changed name and part number but still has its high ZDDP content.

I think Valvoline VR-1 is one of the two 20W50 motorcyle oils I scored in a five quart find last week, that went into the Saturn (225,000 miles)?

I have used it in the past but they may have reduced the ZDDP level in that so you may want to look into a recent VOA.

If this outfit is not lying they are selling pure ZDDP in 4 oz bottles? Also new to me.

http://www.zddppluscentral.com/

WOWZERS!!!!!!

Its not new. ZDDP Plus was one of the first to offer a ZDDP supplement. I am surprised you hadn't heard of them. They are widely used.

From your links it seems everyone is trying to cash in on the ZDDP fiasco.

 

[Ecomike]

.

Its not new. ZDDP Plus was one of the first to offer a ZDDP supplement. I am surprised you hadn't heard of them. They are widely used.

From your links it seems everyone is trying to cash in on the ZDDP fiasco.

Well I stocked up on oil and old additive in 2008, and found the AZ brand 20W50 SL oil about 2 years ago, stocked up on it and kept plenty on hand, so I had not looked for additives since 2008. My last oil inventory got used up last year, with no signs of a new source of a suitable oil all year last year, so I started looking for additives today thinking I may be soon stuck using a 20W50 API SN oil and need additive for it. Seems the synthetic oil users are lot better off these days, lots of options there.

 

[Jeepguy03]

3 Things:

1. The 4.0L is a flat tappet motor, BUT it has low valve spring pressures. This means it doesn't need more ZDDP than current SN rated oils provide, with the exception of a stroker motor that has an aggressive cam.

2. Many UOAs (used oil analysis) on the 4.0L motor have shown that it does well on both a 10w30 and a 10w40. There is a thread on jeepstrokers.com that indicates there is almost no difference in iron wear between the two oil weights. Run a good 10w30 (unless you live in the desert) and sleep well at night.

3. For those of you who still feel you need more ZDDP, try the new Quaker State Defy oils. They come in 5w30 and 10w30. This oil is SL rated for older vehicles and contains 50% more ZDDP than SN rated oils. It wasn't supposed to be out until May but has been slowly becoming available at WalMart.

The 4.0L will thrive with basically any oil. The important thing is to make sure you have a good filter and change the oil often.

 

[Mike1331]

3 Things:

1. The 4.0L is a flat tappet motor, BUT it has low valve spring pressures. This means it doesn't need more ZDDP than current SN rated oils provide, with the exception of a stroker motor that has an aggressive cam.

2. Many UOAs (used oil analysis) on the 4.0L motor have shown that it does well on both a 10w30 and a 10w40. There is a thread on jeepstrokers.com that indicates there is almost no difference in iron wear between the two oil weights. Run a good 10w30 (unless you live in the desert) and sleep well at night.

3. For those of you who still feel you need more ZDDP, try the new Quaker State Defy oils. They come in 5w30 and 10w30. This oil is SL rated for older vehicles and contains 50% more ZDDP than SN rated oils. It wasn't supposed to be out until May but has been slowly becoming available at WalMart.

The 4.0L will thrive with basically any oil. The important thing is to make sure you have a good filter and change the oil often.

nice
/thread

 

[mocrawlin]

i was at walmart today after reading all this over the last couple of nights and couldnt find the quaker state defy stuff. but i stumbled on the accell brand in 10w40 that is SL rated! even says right on the bottle for 88 model years and older. mine is an 89, but the engines havent changed so i bought some. also put the marvel mystery oil in with it because i was getting some valve train noise.

the oil was only 2.39 a quart also. i changed it, put a new wix 51626 filter on and drove the piss out of it for a few miles and it already seems quiter! i had lucas treatment in it before and heard bad things about it foaming up, so im not gonna use it anymore.

good thread, been a very interesting read.

 

[Ecomike]

The Lucas foam thing is BS. They ran the foam test at room temp with pure Lucas, not at a 1:5 mixed ratio with oil, at 190 F, not at operating temperature, and thus rigged the demo to make sure it foam. That is an old snake oil salesman demo trick. Ask me how I know, LOL!!! I ran Lucas in my 87 XJ for 4 years, I now have 275,000 miles on the beast.

 

[Jeepguy03]

The Lucas foam thing is BS. They ran the foam test at room temp with pure Lucas, not at a 1:5 mixed ratio with oil, at 190 F, not at operating temperature, and thus rigged the demo to make sure it foam. That is an old snake oil salesman demo trick. Ask me how I know, LOL!!! I ran Lucas in my 87 XJ for 4 years, I now have 275,000 miles on the beast.

I'm unbiased since I used to use Lucas. I won't use it anymore. If you look up what it is made of it is just oil thickeners basically. Why would you want to make your oil thicker in a 4.0L? A desert racing truck that sees redline and high oil temps? Maybe... but not in a street driven 4.0L. You are doing more harm to the engine on cold starts with the thick Lucas in there than you would ever benefit from it at operating temps.

The key is having a happy medium between oil PRESSURE and oil FLOW. More pressure does not equal more flow. :cheers:

 

[matt36]

Ecomike is right!! Lucas oil in my 92 4.0 for three years and works prefect ..I do get some lifter tap on cold mornings but goes away i n2 minutes . Oil comes out as clean as it went in .I've got 150k on mine .

 

[Ecomike]

I'm unbiased since I used to use Lucas. I won't use it anymore. If you look up what it is made of it is just oil thickeners basically. Why would you want to make your oil thicker in a 4.0L? A desert racing truck that sees redline and high oil temps? Maybe... but not in a street driven 4.0L. You are doing more harm to the engine on cold starts with the thick Lucas in there than you would ever benefit from it at operating temps.

The key is having a happy medium between oil PRESSURE and oil FLOW. More pressure does not equal more flow. :cheers:

When I was using Lucas I was also using MMO and 10W40, I now used just 20W50. I used the MMO to help clean up a used abused engine, and I used Lucas to control oil consumption by increasing viscosity (MMO thins the oil), I now use just 20W50 ONLY and it uses only 1.5 quarts of oil in about 3000 miles now, using NON-synthetic dyno oils. Last summer we had a record setting all time heat wave in Houston, some 120 days of 105 F temps!!!
This winter never got below 32 F. Also if I use just 10W40, it uuses way too much oil, and the hot idle pressure drops into 10 PSI area. With 20W50 it never gets below 20 psi hot now.

There is Naxja guy that posted a while back that he was running pure Lucas on a very worn 4.0!!!!!