New motor oil wear problems on older engines

[Ecomike]

These may have already been posted, but I don't recall it:

http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/oil_summary.html

I think I may have found another additive. They are talking about it on the Bobs the oil guy forum. I found the products home page, or a distributor anyway:

http://waxdepot.safeshopper.com/167/918.htm?934bhb

This looks like the red STP we are loking for?

http://www.autobarn.net/chst-1017-12.html

I found blue and black containers of STP oil additives on the store shelves today, but have yet to find the red STP bottle anywhere except online.

Never seen this product but found this is post today:

"Valvoline SynPower Oil Additive has both the highest amount of ZDDP and also ester synthetic additives for about $3.99/bottle.:

Trying to track down the CD-2 SLOB (Street Legal Oil Booster) additive and I discovered Turtle Wax who also makes Marvel Mystery Oil. Turtle wax seems to make the CD-2 product line, but CD-2 SLOB did not show up on their website, even though the product is being sold on several distributor web sites. Wondering if it is being phased out too?

http://www.turtlewax.com/main.taf?p=2,2

I found quart containers of STP Oil Stabilizer at O'Reillys today, $8.00/quart, and it listed ZDDP in the contents! Would be nice to know how much ZDDP it contains. Know anyone at STP???

Found an oil I had never noticed before called Mystick (by Citgo in Houston) a 15W40 Synthetic blend called JT-8 that did NOT list SM on the API label! It was still API SL.

The Valvoline 20W50 racing oil was already API SM rated. :scared: So much for just using any old racing oil!

O'Reillys was stocking Royal Purple syntheic 15W40 at $28/gal. It was not API SM rated!

Found another interesting (at first look) Castrol product called "Castrol Tection Extra Ext. Diesel Engine Life" 15W40, that had a lot of old diesel and gas engine API approval specs listed on it and the new API SM (low zinc) on the code stamp????? So it looks like Castrol has bailed out, sold out on the ZDDP additive on all their products.

My last stop will be WallyWorld in the next week or so.

 

[RyanM]

I was looking at a bottle of RP 10w-30 I had. Says its SL but sill says energy conserving. What do you think. I may switch to Redline Street Formula after 3k
I want to try the Valvoline Syn power

 

[RyanM]

Lucas- overpriced, mostly snake oil, hyped up to be more than it is- the effects it has, may be benificial in some very old engines that need an oddball variation in the way the lubrication works to keep it running... stay away from it for the most part.

Restore- I've actually used it.. but stay away from it now.. it got rid of my teicking for a few oil changes, then it came back.. after doing more research on restore- I don't think this is a very good solution for any engine, it is prone to leave more deposits and make a mess for later oils to clean up.

STP- oldschool addative, primarily ZDDP. ZDDP thickens the oil. Most oils you buy, already have some amount of this addative in them to bring the weight into the desired range. Adding 1 bottle of STP, is roughly equivalent to stepping up your oil 1 grade in weight. (1 bottle added to a 5w30, will make it something closer to a 5w40, or 10w40)... I've experimented with this stuff.. I tried a short run in the summer with 20W50, and 2 bottles STP, resulting in some very heavy oil, to see if it would help with the lifter ticking, didn't. STP has it's place for some engines that run better on heavier oil.... often, the best use for STP, would be half way through an oil change interval to boost an oil back up to it's normal viscosity (many oils shear down over their usage interval).


Most addatives, are relativally safe to use, and, as long as you change your oil frequently, shouldn't cause any more problems than they may solve... but remember, oils are formulated from the bottle, to work well, addatives, will change the balance of the add-pack a bit, and in some cases, may shorten the life of the oil, leading to premature coking and sludging. Any addative that doesn't contain a balanced add-pack of it's own- is going to force the addatives in the oil you are using to work harder (wear out sooner) to makup for the lack of detergency in the addative...


If you spend some time over on BITOG- you'll find, that there are some addatives, that come highly respected.

Auto-RX- is about the most frequently talked about addative on the site. It is an Ester based cleaner that you mix with the oil. At ~$24 per bottle, it seems pricey- but the results people are getting are phenomonel. Removing years of varnish and sludge from ring packs, lifters, and oil passages, has turned many old smoking beater cars into excellent running cars. a clean engine, is proving to be a healthy engine.. Auto-RX also does a great job of cleaning and reconditioning worn out seals... I should note... that according to Isuzu- the cause of the the infamous ticking, in many of these engines, is contamination reducing oil flow to the valve adjusters. The Service bulliten recomends a switch to 5w20 or 0w30 synthetic oil to help clean out the engine.. Auto-RX would be a much better candidate for this cleaning than just light weight synthetic oil. Auto-RX, removes stuff that flushes never even begin to touch. It is safe to leave in the oil, and does not reduce the oils ability to lubricate in any way. Being an ester- it is, an oil itself. Highly recomended- but follow the usage instructions exactly for best results.

VSOT: (valvoline synthetic oil treatment)... comes in a little silver bottle, and you can find it at pep-boys... For the most part, this is a moly booster, moly is a friction modifier that is gaining a lot of respect as a cheap alternative to other methods of reducing metal-to-metal friction. Moly is held in suspension, as oil is pressed between metal parts, moly forms a small cushoning layer that is more flat and even than the surface of the metal itself. Many motor oils already contain moly (redline, and havoline, to mention a couple).... some contain little or none and use other ingrediants to aid in this friction modification... VSOT has been used in mamy engine, and returned very decent UOAs with low wear numbers.. Many folks using this- are using it in oils that do not come with it out of the bottle, to take advantage of both the friction modifier the oil comes with, and moly, at the same time.

Lube Control: Essencially- Lube control is, like adding more detergency to the oil.. I don't know as much about this product... but it has been shown to extend oil life, allowing for more extended drains, and even offers a level of cleaning above and beyond that of most oils out of the bottle. Doses are very small, and using this product on an ongoing basis, isn't very expensive and has shown good results. Lube Control also makes a fuel addative that has proven itself in many vehicles.

 

[Ecomike]

I don't think he (BTOG) is right about ZDDP (in STP) increasing the viscosity of the oil. I am pretty sure the oil thickener in STP is a seperate ingedient from the ZDDP.

There just is not enough ZDDP at .2 to .4% in a 15 oz bottle to cause a large change in the 4 to 6 quarts of oil in the engine. Also I have seen the chemical formula for ZDDP, it does not have the high molecular weight needed to increase oil vicosity even at a 50% concentration in the 15 oz bottle, much less a 0.2 to 0.4% concentration. Even at .4% ZDDP in 15 oz added to 160 oz (5 quarts) of oil is only .034% ZDDP in the final 5.4 quarts ( I used 5 quarts of oil and .4 quarts of additive in the assumed volume for the calculation).

So 0.034% ZDDP is not going to change the viscosity of the final 5.4 quart oil mix one damn bit so I call :bsn this one!

 

[RyanM]

Anything to say about my first post?

 

[Ecomike]

I was looking at a bottle of RP 10w-30 I had. Says its SL but sill says energy conserving. What do you think. I may switch to Redline Street Formula after 3k
I want to try the Valvoline Syn power

RP seems to be using the fact that Synthetic oils have less friction compared to dyno oils as as an excuse to call it energy conserving, which I am sure it is. If it does not have the new energy conserving API symbol on it then it should be OK. If it does not list API SM on it then it should be OK.

 

[Ecomike]

Turtle Wax just emailed me that SLOB (with ZDDP) has been discontinued as well, but that you might still find remaining inventories at the "Dollar" store of all places!

He also said that SLOB would increase the ZDDP concentration when added to 4 quarts of motor oil by 0.1%!

 

[Ecomike]

According to these MSDS documents Redline has 0.6 to 1.2% ZDDP (listed under haz materials section), which is equivalent to 0.12% elemental zinc (according to them in the SARA Title III section, page 2) in their synthetic Diesel oil and motor oils. The MSDS is dated 2005.

http://www.redlineoil.com/msds/26.pdf

http://www.redlineoil.com/msds/33.pdf

For synthetic oil users Redline looks like a safe oil to use in our engines.

Their racing oils claim to have .25% ZN (someting like 2% ZDDP):

http://www.redlineoil.com/msds/25.pdf

I may go with a quart of their 20W60 Racing oil added to something like Exxon 20W50 Dyno oil and skip the Lucas addtive I use to keep my hot oil idle pressure up at 22 psi, and use the Redline as an oil thickener (like I use to use Lucas additive for) and as a detergent additive (since the synthetics are such good cleaning agents) and as a ZDDP additive boost. Then hope my engine can handle 1 quart of synthetic added to its regular diet of Dyno oil, with out springing leaks again.

Also, I recently switched to Redline MT-90 recently because of my brass synchronizers in my 5 speed manual tranny. All the newer gear box oils (GL-5) eat brass! MT-90 was the only safe product left on the market for brass that I could find at the time that was safe for the old GL-3 spec trannys.

 

[Ecomike]

Note that Redline racing oils are not suitable for our DDs as they are very low in detergent concentrations The low detergent is to avoid detonation concerns in hot racing engines using exotic fuels.

 

[ChipsXJ]

Does anyone know anything about coastal motor oil?
http://www.warrenunilube.com/motoroils.html
This is sold at my local autozone.

This is their line on it:

Premium SL Motor Oils
Coastal Premium Motor Oils are superior-quality, high detergent automotive engine oils specially formulated to meet the stringent lubrication requirements of today's engines. High-viscosity-index base oils combine with a carefully selected additive package to provide maximum protection against wear, rust, corrosion, oxidative thickening, acid formation, sludge, and varnish deposits.

Coastal Premium Motor Oils meet or exceed the requirements of API Service SL, MIL-L-46152E, Ford M2C153E, GM-6048M, and 6049M.

Coastal Premium Motor Oils also give excellent performance in engines operating on LPG fuel.
Coastal Premium 30
Coastal Premium 40
Coastal Premium 10w40
Coastal Premium HP 20w50

 

[Ecomike]

They have been around here in Houston since at least the early 80's. I used their cheap recyled oil back then on an old gaser with a leaky rear seal for a while. They seem to have a compete line of motor oils now, and are available at several chains in Houston stores. I have seen the Coastal SL still on the shelf here in Houston.

Looks like they might be keeping the API Sl only for a while from the looks of their web site, but who knows. For now at least some of the store inventory of Coastal Oils is not API SM yet, but once again you must check each bottle for presence of the old SL or CH-4 label and absence of the new SM or CJ-4 label.

Coastal is not a well known and respected brand name like Mobil oil or Redline oil, but in a pinch for an SL or CH-4 rated DYNO oil I would feel safe using theirs.

On another note I found an old bottle of ProShop Oil Treatment (blue bottle like STP's) at a Dollar store yesterday. They also had the blue STP bottle and new unknown brand called XL, but the XL did not list ZDDP in the contents. The ProShop listed ZDDP in the contents, but it seemed to be old stock and no longer available.Could not find a source of it on the web, but it was recommended in an older engine discussion thread on another forum. (studebaker something site I think).

Went to WallyWorld yesterday too, boy was that disapointing, nothing left their but SM/CJ-4 rated oils! Only additive left with ZDDP was blue STP bottle. I have yet to find a single bottle of STP red anywhere.

Does anyone know anything about coastal motor oil?
http://www.warrenunilube.com/motoroils.html
This is sold at my local autozone.

This is their line on it:

Premium SL Motor Oils
Coastal Premium Motor Oils are superior-quality, high detergent automotive engine oils specially formulated to meet the stringent lubrication requirements of today's engines. High-viscosity-index base oils combine with a carefully selected additive package to provide maximum protection against wear, rust, corrosion, oxidative thickening, acid formation, sludge, and varnish deposits.

Coastal Premium Motor Oils meet or exceed the requirements of API Service SL, MIL-L-46152E, Ford M2C153E, GM-6048M, and 6049M.

Coastal Premium Motor Oils also give excellent performance in engines operating on LPG fuel.
Coastal Premium 30
Coastal Premium 40
Coastal Premium 10w40
Coastal Premium HP 20w50

 

[Ecomike]

I just got this reply from Red Line:

"Mike,

Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, I would expect the current
levels of zinc and more importantly phosphorus and sulphur would be
maintained in the motor oils as well as in the Race Oils. We do
continuously evaluate and occasionally upgrade our products. Our
products are not submitted to the API for certification, so we are
not bound by the limits imposed for submitted product. We say our
oils are suitable and would satisfy the SM class performance
requirements.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil"

So this is a mixed blessing. On one hand they do not submit their oils to API for testing and API approval, so they do not need to meet the new minimum standard for Zn, phosphorous and sulfur content. On the other hand when we buy their product(s) we are taking their word for its quality, applicability to our needs, and product contents.

In a way we are doing that with any oil supplier, but it does mean that they are not using and securing the API test and API aproval on their product, and therefore they cannot display the API symbol showing that their product passed the specific API tests.

In the case of the API SM/CJ-4 spec that is good news, in the case of the API SL/CH-4 spec, we musty take their word for it that their products meet or exceed the requirments of those API specs. What they are doing is saying that they have tested their oil(s) themselves and determined that their oil(s) are as good as, equal to, or better than required by the API Spec.

I did find Red Line gear oils to be one of only 2 gear oil brands left on the market that are safe on the brass synchronizers in the old manual transmissions (like mine). Their product MT-90 is rated by them as a GL-4, but is just as save as GL-3 on brass. The only one on the market that I know of and it is synthetic as well. For this reason I am inclined to trust what Red Line says about their products. Unfortunately in my case all of my engines are just too old to use synthetic oils in them, but many of you might want to seriously consider the Red Line oils for now. You can buy direct from them on line too if you can not find the Red Line product you want locally.

 

[ChipsXJ]

They have been around here in Houston since at least the early 80's.

Looks like they were established in 1947 before they were eventually purchased by Williams oil. http://www.warrenunilube.com/Unilube_Info.pdf

You state in a pinch you would use them. I am feeling the pinch now. I think I am going to start using their oil, because like you, I can not go to synthetics due to high mileage on our 3 XJs. How long they will keep producing it is questionable, but if we are looking at the dollar store for solutions we are indeed feeling a bit cornered.

After reading the Hot Rod story, I felt like we were maybe making a mountain out of a mole hill. I understood their article to indicate that it was only performance non-oem applications that would suffer. But have now re-thought my position and am again worried about it. Looks like we have been using the 'BAD' oil for a year or so.

Coastal has no email addresses for contact, so I will call them later today or tomorrow as time permits and post their comments/response.

 

[ChipsXJ]

back to my performance non-oem issue--for what is is worth--just found this: http://theoildrop.server101.com/for...eep+flat+tappet&topic=&Search=true#Post925507

Question:
Does Mobil 1 Contain the Additive for Flat Tappet Cams?
I build a few engines a year as I do muscle car repairs and I have been having a lot of camshaft failures. I just read that it is because the oil no longer has the additive for flat tappet cams. Can I use Mobil 1 to break in fresh rebuilt engines of '60s and '70s tech? Is it too slippery for new ring break-in? Will it give protection on new cam and lifters?
-- Frederick Neidlinger, Dover/Dover AFB, DE
Answer:
For older, flat tappet engines where wear may be more of a concern, we offer a number of oil products which are higher in phosphorus than API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. These include Mobil 1 15W-50, Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 (1200 ppm phosphorus), Mobil 1 0W-40 (1,000 ppm) and Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and 10W-40 (1000 ppm). For all newer engines and flat tappet engines in normal service, API SM/ISLAC GF-4 oils are preferred for better fuel economy and for the protection of catalytic systems with lower phosphorous (800 ppm).

 

[RyanM]

I'm sure you get a lot of this but here I go. Please be honest as I love my motor!. 1996 Jeep 4.0, 140K, been synthetic for half its life, Recently RP. DO I have a problem running 10w-30 in the winter and 10w-40 in the hot months? I'm pretty sure the stuff Ive been buying at the local stores is SL. Does these grades have the ZDDP I need?? I would aspect at least 1100ppm of Zn and Ph! If not what do you recommend? Also running a K&N filter, should I stay with this or go NAPA (WIX)?

Thanks
Ryan Marshall, VA

Ryan,

Our motor oils are API serviced SL with the ZDDP levels to keep your flat tapped cam going with out any problems. We recommend that you run RP 5w30 or RP 10w30, but 10w40 is not needed as it will rob you of fuel economy and horse power.

Either the K&N or the WIX will get the job done. those are the ones most popular here at RP.

Have a great day.

Kyle Neal
Technical Sales Representative
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, TX 77365
281-354-8600 office
713-705-9556 cell
[email protected]

 

[Ecomike]

Just received this reply from STP:

Thank you for contacting us about STP Oil Stabilizer DISC. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

Unfortunately, the amount of ZDDP in our products is proprietary information. However, what I can tell you is
that the amount in our oil treatments is about 4 times the amount of ZDDP that motor oils once contained. The
STP Oil Stabilizer, unfortunately, has been discontinued. It did however contain about 6 times the amount of
ZDDP as motor oils once contained. Our product was originally developed for flat tappet cam engines and is
still recommended for them. I hope this information helps you.

Again, thank you for contacting us.

 

[Ecomike]

Check these out:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/269596-diesel-oil-with-lots-of-zddp-gone-in-2-more-years.html

 

[Ecomike]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I wonder if this is not a partial solution?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BUY-a-BOAT-EN...2397950QQihZ005QQcategoryZ23808QQcmdZViewItem

Here is a quote on the site I found:

"Just to clarify - Ametech Engine Restore Oil contains micro particles of CSL copper silver lead in a honeycomb matrix -under a microscope they look like the inside of chocolate malteser balls! These particles vary between 2micron and 16micron in diameter and find their way to every hot spot and wear point in the engine. The CSL particles will repair everything they touch: cylinders, pistons and rings, valve guides, crankshaft, main bearings, camshaft, bushings and bearings, oil pump gears and bushings, and bring dimensions back to very near to original specifications. We halt the repair process before it reaches 100% because we DON'T want the dimensions to be over-reduced from original (which would make the engine tight of course!). I can confirm that Ametech Engine Restore Oil will repair the 'wear' in your oil pressure system. It wont repair leaky oil seals, broken piston rings though. A worn engine has to be mechanically sound for RESTORE to work it's magic... If you invest in a can for each engine litre, and run the engine for 1000 miles (or 10hours) you will see the oil pressure slowly climb back to normal (and stay there!). Ametech Engine Restore Oil is a permanent repair to the engine... Regards DaveB enginerestore "
[/FONT]

 

[cygnus58]

I went in search for SL oil tonite.
Found 2 5 qt Pennzoil SL rated. (no SM designation)
The problem is, the date codes seem VERY old.
I emailed Pennzoil and am waiting for response....
I am still trying to decide what to get for the next oil change.
A few more links...
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/photo_10.html
This looks like Pennzoil and Q State Racing oils are still good.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Flat_Tappet_Engines.aspx
this may upset some Rotella users...
http://forum.svrider.com/index.php?topic=93192.0;topicseen
A GM EOS alternative? for temporary probably..
http://www.acdelco.com/html/pi_vehcare_lub.htm

 

[Ecomike]

Cygnus58, Your link to Mobil one is real interesting news. For those that might not browse to it, It says this:

Question: Does Mobil 1 Contain the Additive for Flat Tappet Cams?I build a few engines a year as I do muscle car repairs and I have been having a lot of camshaft failures. I just read that it is because the oil no longer has the additive for flat tappet cams. Can I use Mobil 1 to break in fresh rebuilt engines of '60s and '70s tech? Is it too slippery for new ring break-in? Will it give protection on new cam and lifters?-- Frederick Neidlinger, Dover/Dover AFB, DE

Answer: For older, flat tappet engines where wear may be more of a concern, we offer a number of oil products which are higher in phosphorus than API SM/ILSAC GF-4 oils. These include Mobil 1 15W-50, Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 (1200 ppm phosphorus), Mobil 1 0W-40 (1,000 ppm) and Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and 10W-40 (1000 ppm). For all newer engines and flat tappet engines in normal service, API SM/ISLAC GF-4 oils are preferred for better fuel economy and for the protection of catalytic systems with lower phosphorous (800 ppm).

I'm not buying anything with less than .12% Zinc myself.

Here is another intersting answer from Mobil:

Question: Presence of Zinc in Engine Oils Does Mobil Delvac have zinc in the oil? A lot of racers are using Shell to break in their cams in HP engines due to the zinc in the oil. It works the best. I think most oils for non-gas cars have zinc in the oil to help something? -- Jeff Paquette, Raymond, NH

Answer: All engine oils have an additive called ZDDP (Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) for wear protection. In general, heavy duty engine oils (truck oils like Mobil Delvac) have a higher level of ZDDP. Automotive engine oils generally have a lower level of ZDDP to protect catalytic systems.

Mobil Delvac 1300 super, 15W40 is what I bought a few days ago.