scottmcneal
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- not here
thanks, not sure about this high tech crap with oil...i just change mine an drive, what can i say
New motor oil wear problems on older engines
- Thread starter Ecomike
- Start date
I found some API SL penzoil today at my local Kroger. (10w40). The 10w30(newer bottle) were all API SM Places who sell oil, but do not really sell a lot, would be a good place to gander. Mom and Pop gas stations etc. although they might not be as low price as autozone.
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
scottmcneal said:
Speaking of high tech crap and Slick 50, I wonder why it lost the oil pump?
Hmmm.scottmcneal
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- not here
over 100 thou on big block dodge the old 413 truck motor with 456 an no od ran high rpm on freeway, when i got it home i fixed it.. drove it to dealer..
... they took it for a trade
... they took it for a tradebewilderedbeast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Seattle
I posted in another thread that I wonder if people are too doom and gloom about the new oils and lower phosphorous and zinc. I've seen several oil analyses from 4.0's using newer SM oils and they all looked pretty good, no signs elevated wear metals or signs of anything weird going on.
on my two 4 litres i'm using mobil 1 0w40; due the notorious lack of Zn & P in this kind of lubrificant (about 950ppm versus 1300ppm of mobil1 ep 15w50) i add 375cc of sintoflon protector (on 6,5 litres of oil, due the very big filter) every oil change.
Sintoflon engineer claim to add, in the additive, about 1% of Zn and 1% of P, plus the main PTFE protection.
I've done about 20000Km (1st change @15000Km) on the '89 XJ and 10000Km on the ZJ whitout any problems of leak and noise, in both the oil pressure is very stable and the oil is clear.
In ten minutes after you put the protector all the ticking noise go away and the engine work very smoot.
I'd used the same mix in all my 3 previous diesel XJ, and I've take all the 3 renault td engines up to 300000Km where the average life is not more than 200000.
P.S. the same problem of low Zn & P had my friend with porsche 911, air cooled, solved in the same way
Sintoflon engineer claim to add, in the additive, about 1% of Zn and 1% of P, plus the main PTFE protection.
I've done about 20000Km (1st change @15000Km) on the '89 XJ and 10000Km on the ZJ whitout any problems of leak and noise, in both the oil pressure is very stable and the oil is clear.
In ten minutes after you put the protector all the ticking noise go away and the engine work very smoot.
I'd used the same mix in all my 3 previous diesel XJ, and I've take all the 3 renault td engines up to 300000Km where the average life is not more than 200000.
P.S. the same problem of low Zn & P had my friend with porsche 911, air cooled, solved in the same way
mikegronholz
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Fort Worth
I tend to agree with the above. i switched to the Rotella Synth (hoping to not get leaks) mainly becasue that is what my Dodge CTD gets and my 'ol lady's JK will be getting. it is designed for the chaos of the diesel motors ... so the little 4.0L and 3.8L 6 cylinders should be a walk in the park for them.
Plus, if you ever really wanted to push, if you could prove that continued exposure to lower levels causes gouging on the cam or pushrods and ultimately engine failure, the oil companies could be held liable. I think they are either betting you couldn't prove it, or that there really isn't an issue. Cars ran for a long time without detergents or additives and on leaded gas too. Those really old Model T's (historically accurate) that roll around aren't running cams with roller rockers ... and those guys are driving history and a very pricey ride. In comparison, we are all driving low value vehicles. Given the opportunity to buy SL or SM, I'll pick the SL though ... but for the reasons associated with the diesel motors (stupid ultra-low sulpher diesel fuel is really hurting motors).
My uncle has a historically accurate Camaro ... original motor, tranny, etc ... he has no worries at all. His philosophy (as well as his race car's engine builder's) is ... if you keep oil flowing, keep it cool and keep it clean, it will never be the oil's fault.
There are people all over the world that own rare pushrod style motors with flat tappets. API only deals with America. What is the rest of the world's standards ? I have "non residents" that live down the road from me. You know how they change their oil ? They take all my left overs (that half a quart i didn't use, etc.) and the left overs at swap meets etc. and dump it in until it is at the required level (mixing brands, weights, etc (they do run it through a coffee filter just in case though). Sometimes a new filter, sometimes not. One of their mid 80's chevy trucks has over 300000 miles on the stock motor !!! This is the truck they use to haul\tow vehicles to Mexico for sale. It doesn't burn oil or leak (I have helped them change the oil before). I bet they don't care what the zinc levels are ... but that is a flat tappet pushrod motor ...
I'll shutup now
Plus, if you ever really wanted to push, if you could prove that continued exposure to lower levels causes gouging on the cam or pushrods and ultimately engine failure, the oil companies could be held liable. I think they are either betting you couldn't prove it, or that there really isn't an issue. Cars ran for a long time without detergents or additives and on leaded gas too. Those really old Model T's (historically accurate) that roll around aren't running cams with roller rockers ... and those guys are driving history and a very pricey ride. In comparison, we are all driving low value vehicles. Given the opportunity to buy SL or SM, I'll pick the SL though ... but for the reasons associated with the diesel motors (stupid ultra-low sulpher diesel fuel is really hurting motors).
My uncle has a historically accurate Camaro ... original motor, tranny, etc ... he has no worries at all. His philosophy (as well as his race car's engine builder's) is ... if you keep oil flowing, keep it cool and keep it clean, it will never be the oil's fault.
There are people all over the world that own rare pushrod style motors with flat tappets. API only deals with America. What is the rest of the world's standards ? I have "non residents" that live down the road from me. You know how they change their oil ? They take all my left overs (that half a quart i didn't use, etc.) and the left overs at swap meets etc. and dump it in until it is at the required level (mixing brands, weights, etc (they do run it through a coffee filter just in case though). Sometimes a new filter, sometimes not. One of their mid 80's chevy trucks has over 300000 miles on the stock motor !!! This is the truck they use to haul\tow vehicles to Mexico for sale. It doesn't burn oil or leak (I have helped them change the oil before). I bet they don't care what the zinc levels are ... but that is a flat tappet pushrod motor ...
I'll shutup now
Mike,
If your uncle wants to trust his vintage Camero’s motor to his engine builder‘s oil recommendation he is making a big mistake.Check out any of the threads currently making the rounds over the last year on any muscle car or vintage car forum. There may be many opinions as to what is the best solution. But all are in agreement that the current generation of dino oils should not be used in these older motors.
The oil companies put these additive packages for specific applications and usage. If not they would save the $$$ and make them all generic.
Engine builds on any motor, classic or otherwise are not cheap. The extra dollars spent to protect his investment are well worth the extra cost.
Now, I will shut up.
PS: If you live in an area that still has a Kmart (an endangered species in some parts) you might find some Shell Rotella T CI-4. I purchased the last 4 gallons at my local store for $12 a gallon.
Good Luck to All!
If your uncle wants to trust his vintage Camero’s motor to his engine builder‘s oil recommendation he is making a big mistake.Check out any of the threads currently making the rounds over the last year on any muscle car or vintage car forum. There may be many opinions as to what is the best solution. But all are in agreement that the current generation of dino oils should not be used in these older motors.
The oil companies put these additive packages for specific applications and usage. If not they would save the $$$ and make them all generic.
Engine builds on any motor, classic or otherwise are not cheap. The extra dollars spent to protect his investment are well worth the extra cost.
Now, I will shut up.
PS: If you live in an area that still has a Kmart (an endangered species in some parts) you might find some Shell Rotella T CI-4. I purchased the last 4 gallons at my local store for $12 a gallon.
Good Luck to All!
bewilderedbeast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Seattle
Nine Mile said:
Here are results from two of my UOA's, the lefthand figures are Havoline SM 10W30, the righthand ones are Chevron SL High mileage.
You can see which one looks better, and if you see anything that looks like excessive or catastrophic wear, please tell me.
As I said, there are many others with the same engine and a variety of oil brands, the newer SM's are looking just as good or better.
Interval July-Sept. 2006
Havoline 10W30 SM
Napa Gold 1085 Filter
Napa Gold Air Filter
Miles on Unit 127597
Miles on Oil 3000
This sample / Feb.9,2005 Chev. 10W30 HM
Al 5 2
Cr 0 1
Fe 7 14
Cu 2 4
Pb 3 6
Tin 0 0
Mo 313 60
Ni 0 0
Mang 0 0
Silver 0 0
Ti 0 0
K 2 0
Boron 26 96
Si 8 7
Na 1 3
Ca 1477 1516
Mag 35 6
Phos 550 624
Zn 650 759
Barium 0 0
TBN 2.5 3.1
SUS@210F 60.7 58.7?
Flash 370
Fuel TR 1.0
Antifreeze 0 0
Water 0 TR
Insolubles .3 .3
corbinafly
"Mmmm. More please."
- Location
- lakewood,ca
x2. I don't think it would have made any difference without the slick 50 junk.RichP said:
Runnin'OnEmpty
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Southeast USA
Maybe this was mentioned previously in this thread, but I didn't see it:
There's a product mfg by CD-2 called
"Street Legal high performance Oil Boost" aka "SLOB", that contains about 4800 ppm each of ZDDP and K, and also a good amount of calcium.
Unfortunately it's been discontinued, but Big Lots has bought up all remaining stock, and is selling it in their stores for anywhere from $2 to $.50 per pint bottle. It's easy to spot on the shelves, in a bright PINK bottle.
So if you're looking for an additive to fortify your SM oil, check out the Big Lots in your area for this stuff.
There's a product mfg by CD-2 called
"Street Legal high performance Oil Boost" aka "SLOB", that contains about 4800 ppm each of ZDDP and K, and also a good amount of calcium.
Unfortunately it's been discontinued, but Big Lots has bought up all remaining stock, and is selling it in their stores for anywhere from $2 to $.50 per pint bottle. It's easy to spot on the shelves, in a bright PINK bottle.
So if you're looking for an additive to fortify your SM oil, check out the Big Lots in your area for this stuff.
bewilderedbeast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Seattle
RyanM said:
Remember, that's 700ppm after 3000 miles. And you should be able to spot any trend in elevated wear. Low wear metals are low wear metals.
I'll be doing UOA's every so often, and should be able to spot anything weird.
bewilderedbeast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Seattle
But they aren't showing any better results than the SM dino oils like Havoline and Castrol, as far as wear metals.
Very true. The way I see it Your oil can only stay as clean as the amount of dirt your air filter is filtering, and if changed 3-4K, It's not enough to harm even with a K&N. But why are top engine builders "aware" of the problems presented. I think the harm is more long term
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Looks like a 500% increase in the Moly (Mo) there!bewilderedbeast said:
The Zinc and phosphorous ( Zn & P) on both look way too low for either one to have ever been a true API SL oil. Perhaps the bottle was mislabled. Elemental Zinc and Phosphorous are not consumed in the engine, so the concentration of the elements (Zn & P) will not change from fresh oil to used depleted motor oil. ZDDP molecules may decompose in the oil over time, get consumed but the decompostion products are still Zn and P which will still show up in the test results, if they were there to begin with.
I see many oil companies saying their oil exceeds the requirements of this and that spec, that does not mean it has been tested and certified to actually meet API SL (or whatever spec they are claiming to exceed the requirments of), it just means the oil company is saying they believe their oil exceeds the requirements, but does not say how.
In the last 20 years the state and federal watch dogs have gone on vacation when it comes to policing consumer product claims. When an oil company says their product exceeds API SL, but does not list the API SL in the API label, they are not listing the API SL symbol and spec because it does not have the required concentration of ZDDP to meet the API SL spec minimum concentration.
See y'all at Big Lots!:sunshine:
bewilderedbeast
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Seattle
The lefthand column-Havoline was SM. The Chevron High Mileage was SL, before SM came out in HM.
