New motor oil wear problems on older engines

[RyanM]

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Number=915152

 

[red91]

Stay away from Fram filters. Safest and best oil filters in my opinion are first and best, K & N, then Mobil 1, then I put Purolator, NAPA gold, and Wix all at about equals for a third place. There are a number of close thirds that are private labeled, but I no longer trust any of them not to suddenly switch to Frams for the guts.

Dude....Napa Gold and WIX ARE the same filter.

 

[ptf18]

Ive got a 88 XJ with 245k that we bought new. Ive been using 10w40 Q-State oil and Fram filters in it since day one. Havent had any problems. Runs real well. Change oil/filter religiously every 5k. Had the pan off it 10k ago to change out a leaking main seal. The pan had some gunk in it but nothing I wouldnt expect for a 18-19 yo car.

 

[ChipsXJ]

I am not too sharp about this topic but I am now worried about it.

at this site: http://www.burkeoil.com/pdf/oilguide.pdf it indicates that I would want to use an oil with a rating of SJ, SH, SL, and even SM (by their defintion).

Then the oil manufacturers site http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...NG/local_assets/downloads/p,q/psd_gtx_usa.pdf indicates that their oil is right for all the applications. Although the product sheet indicates there is 0% of the elements we are concerned with them removing.

I hope more folks will continue to share their knowledge with those of us that are petroleum knowledge challenged.

 

[RichP]

So if I understand the chart right royal purple max cycle is good while castrol syntec is bad....

 

[Ecomike]

So if I understand the chart right royal purple max cycle is good while castrol syntec is bad....

I would say that is based on the assumption that what is on the shelf today, and tomorrow is the same formula that was tested and posted in the thread.

If not all bets are off! Looks like the Royal Purple guys are more keen to this issue, and easier to get confirmation from as to what they have in each formula, but even some of the Royal Purple XPR is getting a bit low on the zinc, so make sure you get RP Max cycle. Also all the Royal Purple I see is SYNTHETIC, which I would not recomend for older engines that are not already running on a synthetic!

If you are worried about the Cat converter (some here might be) the RP max cycle might be looked at as over kill on the ZDDP concentration. Castrol GTX high mile looked OK on the year old test, as did the 2 Delvac formulas, Kendall GT "Vintage" looked OK 2 years ago, Mobil 1 Ep, 15W50 looks interesting, but the test results varied on it (?), some of the Mobil 1 formulas listed, MX4t, R, and Truck & SUV in particular look real interesting, but regular Mobil 1 (0W40 anyway) looks like a problem now.

My concern is I do not see any recent test results for Dyno oils (which is what many of us with older engines are stuck with) in '07, that look any good at all! All the good dyno oil tests are 1 to 2 years old on that list.

I think the safe thing to do is look for the old CI-4 (not CJ-4) API label for what ever brand we use, or perhaps the old SJ label, all with out the newer SM API label on the container!!!

Note that the Royal Purple Max Cycle synthetic is listed as API "SJ " and Not API "SM" compliant, but other SJ's that are listed are low in Zinc, ZDDP.

I do not see any Sx (where X=J,M,H,G, or L) standard motor oils that do not have a test sample from someone showing low ZDDP, wherther Dyno or Synthetic now.

I wish I had copies of all these API spec sheets!!!!

 

[cygnus58]

It is kind of unnerving that in the link I posted, several contacts were made and all concerned were well aware of the problem yet not one mention on any of their websites. (Crane, etc..)
I guess the only way marketing a new product for 12 plus year old vehicles would be feasable for the manufacturers would require very big awareness of the issue in society.
And I have no idea what percentage of people actually change their own oil anyway.
I would bet it is VERY low. Add to that the percentage of vehicles over 12 years old and the formulation for such a product would be even less marketable/profitable.
At least there are some options for those who care.


pft18, I hope to get that many miles from '88 Cherokee. Unless I misunderstand it, these changes in oil were made in the last few years. That would mean the oil you have relied on was different (safer) for the 15+ years while you did use it. I hope this is the case, or this is truly all hype of some sort.

 

[Ecomike]

The changes have been recent, like the last 12 months or so.

It is kind of unnerving that in the link I posted, several contacts were made and all concerned were well aware of the problem yet not one mention on any of their websites. (Crane, etc..)
I guess the only way marketing a new product for 12 plus year old vehicles would be feasable for the manufacturers would require very big awareness of the issue in society.
And I have no idea what percentage of people actually change their own oil anyway.
I would bet it is VERY low. Add to that the percentage of vehicles over 12 years old and the formulation for such a product would be even less marketable/profitable.
At least there are some options for those who care.


pft18, I hope to get that many miles from '88 Cherokee. Unless I misunderstand it, these changes in oil were made in the last few years. That would mean the oil you have relied on was different (safer) for the 15+ years while you did use it. I hope this is the case, or this is truly all hype of some sort.

 

[cygnus58]

Then it would be interesting to know if 10-40 Quaker state has changed along with the rest. I didn't check to see if it is the linked chart.

 

[cygnus58]

not listed that i see.

 

[RichP]

It sure would be a good way to get older cars off the road and force people to buy newer ones... vs putting a new engine in.

 

[cygnus58]

From digging around the net, I think the easiest to obtain would be STP Red.
I'm changing oil in the next few weeks, and will get that along with a K&N filter.
I've already bought some nasty dirty, vitamin depleted Valvoline 10w-40.
Maybe I can pawn it off and just get some V. 20-50 off road or racing instead of fussing with additive..

 

[cygnus58]

just got off the phone with Castrol's "experts".
The man was aware of the flat tappet issue and was more than happy to send me all relevant GTX datasheets. B4 he was finished i asked specifically if the ppm data was included. Then I was put on hold.
It seems that info is, how did he say it? Um, proprietary. He could tell me but he would have to kill me.
Seriously, I have found the API specs for oil ratings, and the page says I should look for at least an SG, preferably SF rated oil, both of which are marked obsolete...
Maybe the STP red will be the way to go.
I gave my son the math problem. According to the link: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
With a "regular" oil at 500ppm average, adding 5 3/4 oz of STP red to 5 3/4 qt of oil would increase levels to approx 1400ppm. (we realize this would overfill crank by a couple ounces so figured on just backing off the oil at that amount.) That seems to be the desired amount in a pure GTX 20-50 fill. We only looked at P levels.
It's all disturbing, I doubt even the Valvoline Off-road or racing gives a SG or SF rating either, even thought this chart says they are good for the flat tappet needs.
Anyone got a container to look at in their hands?

 

[Ecomike]

It sure would be a good way to get older cars off the road and force people to buy newer ones... vs putting a new engine in.

The permanent retirement of old cars is much more suttle :laugh3: in Japan. The just make it outright illegal to drive anything with more than 50,000 miles on it in Japan.

I hear Singapore has some screwy regulations too.

I just got the following email answer from Shell oil:

But first, I got 2 pdf files from him as well, how and where to do upload them everyone to read?

"Mike,

With the introduction a couple of years ago of ILSAC specification GF-4
and API specification SM for gasoline-only engine oils, the amount of
phosphorous in the oil had to be reduced to prolong the life of
catalytic converters. Zinc-based anti-wear compounds, which also
contain phosphorous, were reduced as well. These zinc compounds work
well to protect flat tappet engines from excessive wear, so the modern
gasoline-only engine oils are not as effective in this regard as they
once were.

Diesel engine oils don't suffer from the same requirements to protect
catalytic converters, so the amount of zinc-based anti-wear additives
remained high. Products like Shell Rotella T Oils, which also carry API
S-series licenses for gasoline engines, have found favor for flat tappet
engines. You may find the attached bulletin from Competition Cams and
the attached article from Hot Rod Magazine to be interesting.

There has been a recent change to the API specification required for
oils used in 2007 big rig diesel engines to reduce particulate
emissions, API CJ-4. As a result, the zinc content in Shell Rotella T
Multigrade Oils has been reduced slightly from about 1400 ppm to about
1200 ppm. Even at these slightly decreased levels, Shell Rotella T
Multigrade Oils still have 3 to 5 times the amount of these anti-wear
additives as some current gasoline-only engine oils. These levels of
zinc have historically offered good protection in flat tappet
applications.

However, if you want the highest levels of zinc in the Shell US engine
oil line, take a look at Shell Rotella T Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40. The
product has not yet been introduced in API CJ-4 (the reformulation will
be introduced in about 2-3 months), and currently contains approximately
1600 ppm zinc. If you intend to stock up, please note that we recommend
a shelf life of 4 years for our engine oil products.

Thank you for your interest in Shell Rotella Products!

Regards,
Edward Calcote
Staff Chemist, Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center"
http://www.rotella.com/

 

[corbinafly]

The permanent retirement of old cars is much more suttle :laugh3: in Japan. The just make it outright illegal to drive anything with more than 50,000 miles on it in Japan.

I hear Singapore has some screwy regulations too.

I just got the following email answer from Shell oil:

But first, I got 2 pdf files from him as well, how and where to do upload them everyone to read?

"Mike,

With the introduction a couple of years ago of ILSAC specification GF-4
and API specification SM for gasoline-only engine oils, the amount of
phosphorous in the oil had to be reduced to prolong the life of
catalytic converters. Zinc-based anti-wear compounds, which also
contain phosphorous, were reduced as well. These zinc compounds work
well to protect flat tappet engines from excessive wear, so the modern
gasoline-only engine oils are not as effective in this regard as they
once were.

Diesel engine oils don't suffer from the same requirements to protect
catalytic converters, so the amount of zinc-based anti-wear additives
remained high. Products like Shell Rotella T Oils, which also carry API
S-series licenses for gasoline engines, have found favor for flat tappet
engines. You may find the attached bulletin from Competition Cams and
the attached article from Hot Rod Magazine to be interesting.

There has been a recent change to the API specification required for
oils used in 2007 big rig diesel engines to reduce particulate
emissions, API CJ-4. As a result, the zinc content in Shell Rotella T
Multigrade Oils has been reduced slightly from about 1400 ppm to about
1200 ppm. Even at these slightly decreased levels, Shell Rotella T
Multigrade Oils still have 3 to 5 times the amount of these anti-wear
additives as some current gasoline-only engine oils. These levels of
zinc have historically offered good protection in flat tappet
applications.

However, if you want the highest levels of zinc in the Shell US engine
oil line, take a look at Shell Rotella T Synthetic Oil SAE 5W-40. The
product has not yet been introduced in API CJ-4 (the reformulation will
be introduced in about 2-3 months), and currently contains approximately
1600 ppm zinc. If you intend to stock up, please note that we recommend
a shelf life of 4 years for our engine oil products.

Thank you for your interest in Shell Rotella Products!

Regards,
Edward Calcote
Staff Chemist, Shell Lubricants US Technical Information Center"
http://www.rotella.com/

Sweet! Some real answers. I wonder why the results on that porsche list are lower than the 1400 and 1200 ppm zinc for the CI-4 and CJ-4 respectively. And also lower for the 5W40 which shell states has 1600 ppm zinc. Hmmmmm.....

Kyung

 

[cjben]

what year is considered an "older" engine?

 

[ChipsXJ]

I read this in a Hot Rod magazine article (http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/)
The reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradualprocess, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP contentto such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate protectionfor older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles running nonstock, performancecams and valvetrains.

Still looking for more information.....but I wonder if this is related to primarily nonstock applications?

 

[RichP]

THAT is the FIRST time I have ever seen a 'recommended' shelf life, that I find very interesting.

 

[MudDawg]

I'm glad that this thread is becoming serious....the oil formulation/cam-lifter failure problem is nothing new....basically until now most of the people that have had problems blame it on the cam manufacturers or the lifter manufacturers.....this is real...so take heed...

There are a couple of things to remember....don't let the engine idle for extended periods hot or cold....the lobes and lifter faces are splash lubricated....idle = little splash = lobe and lifter wear...

The problems are more pronounced with higher performance cams that require higher valvespring pressures....

If you have a favorite oil that is a bit weak in the additives department, stop by the local GM dealership and pick up a can of EOS for each oil change. I have been using it for every engine I have built for more than 30 years and have never had a lubrication related cam/lifter failure....other wise select a new oil that meets requirements...Rotella is good, as is Delvac or Delo 400

 

[avnsteve]

what is it about today's "modern" engines' that makes them different than our engines from the 80's or 90's? is the steel so different that it required different oil? have the laws of physics changed in the past 2 decades? something smells fishy