New motor oil wear problems on older engines
- Thread starter Ecomike
- Start date
MudDawg
NAXJA Member #728
- Location
- Central Florida
There are huge engineering differences between "old" flat tappet OHV pushrod engines and modern engines....in the case of the cam wear issue, most engines have roller lifters, and roller rockers. This eliminates the wear issue....other engines are multivalve OHC....the valvetrain components are lighter...spring pressure is less....etc, etc....the pistons for example are hypereutecic, resulting in less wear....the remainder of the reciprocating assembly are made of stronger, lighter materials...allowing more RPM..
The laws of physics have not changed....the engines have changed...increases in thermodynamic efficiency and pumping efficiency have driven horsepower to levels in production engines unheard of (outside of some engine research facilities) 15 or 20 years ago....
The laws of physics have not changed....the engines have changed...increases in thermodynamic efficiency and pumping efficiency have driven horsepower to levels in production engines unheard of (outside of some engine research facilities) 15 or 20 years ago....
avnsteve
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- South Austin or North San Antone
that's what i needed to know, thanks MudDawg
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
That is one of the 2 articles the Shell chemist sent me. It was the better of the 2 articles as well. Great post!
ChipsXJ said:
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Sounds like GM EOS may be the best snake oil, I mean additive (LOL) for us to use on our jeep engines! Otherwise we may soon find ourselves !!!1
30 years is a decent trial I would say!
30 years is a decent trial I would say!
MudDawg said:
MudDawg
NAXJA Member #728
- Location
- Central Florida
EOS is no snake oil...it is intended to be used during break-in of new engines and to suppliment the additive packages in high performance engines. Every GM crate engine comes with a can
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
MudDawg said:EOS is no snake oil...it is intended to be used during break-in of new engines and to suppliment the additive packages in high performance engines. Every GM crate engine comes with a can
Muddawg, Sorry if you miss understood my joking there, :shiver: I used to formulate and market what many would call snake oil. I happen to be a fond and frequent user of many products that others would, or might call snake oil, so I tend to joke about it at times.
I have been know to have a quite a mix of stuff in my oil crankcase that would give others shivers. I have read many posts (opinions) here saying that oil additives are a waste of money and are only bandaids, etc, but I disagree. The GM EOS not only sounds like a miracle in can, I have not doubt that it is a great product that has saved many cams and engines from a gruesome early death.
For those that have an oil they already like, adding the GM EOS is probably the safest and most direct solution to this reduced oil additive problem that or engines are facing now.
I read that they have stopped making the GM Engine Oil Supplement.
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?vc=1&wtype=v4
government regulations?
Anybody?
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?vc=1&wtype=v4
government regulations?
Anybody?
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
I am trying to see what I can find out on the GM EOS and ZDDP itself.
Just found this really cool link to some real science on engine oil.
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=477&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication
For those of you non-chemist wrench heads, feel free to ask me questions about the stuff on this site. It's what I do! There is some stuff here on engine oil and ZDDP I never seen before, it is quite hard core analytical chemistry stuff with some great data shots and facts on oil analysis test methods, that have me wondering what methods and data the standard engine oil tests are using and reporting. The ZDDP also seems to be in other fluids, like maybe brake oil (I am guessing on that as this site mentions hydraulic fluids).
Just found this really cool link to some real science on engine oil.
http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=477&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication
For those of you non-chemist wrench heads, feel free to ask me questions about the stuff on this site. It's what I do! There is some stuff here on engine oil and ZDDP I never seen before, it is quite hard core analytical chemistry stuff with some great data shots and facts on oil analysis test methods, that have me wondering what methods and data the standard engine oil tests are using and reporting. The ZDDP also seems to be in other fluids, like maybe brake oil (I am guessing on that as this site mentions hydraulic fluids).
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Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
I think it's time to sell my GM stock and buy Ebay stock, LOL.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-V...pplement_W0QQitemZ130128785885QQcmdZViewItemb
Seems you can always count on ebay to have something when no one else does.:sunshine:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-V...pplement_W0QQitemZ130128785885QQcmdZViewItemb
Seems you can always count on ebay to have something when no one else does.:sunshine:
RyanM said:
Seems like a link error Ecomike, I can't view it.
Maybe it's me.
With all the complaints about STP over the years, what's wrong with the STP Red for this purpose.?
According to the chart linked, 4oz. would make newer, vitally depleted oil very close to acceptable...
And it's so easy to find.
Maybe it's me.
With all the complaints about STP over the years, what's wrong with the STP Red for this purpose.?
According to the chart linked, 4oz. would make newer, vitally depleted oil very close to acceptable...
And it's so easy to find.
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Well I have just come to the conclusion that there is more to this than I previously thought. The Phosphorus numbers do not add up!
What I mean is if all the phosphorus is from ZDDP, then the values for the zinc do make sense in those lab results, and visa versa, so I am thinking there is another phosphorus compound in some of these oils besides just ZDDP phosphorous, thus complicating matters. It is possible that there is phorphorus in some of the the detergent packages as well, in which case we can NOT tell how much ZDDP is in these oils just by looking at P concentration. For that reason I would look at Zn concentration only for now.
Also, it is the phosphorus that is mostly causing the catalyst damage according to one source I read today, but don't quote me on that yet.
GM has stoped selling the EOS product.
It looks to me like it would take a pint of STP Redline to make a significant increase in the zinc concentration in the oil it was added to, but the STP redline has much less detergent than the GM products did. That may or may not be good.
Power Service oil extender also looks good if it is still available.
All though I can not use synthetics on my old engines, some of you can, and the Mobil 1 EP 15W50 and the Mobil 1 mx4t 10W40 looks promising as far as synthetics go (that data was from tests done this year).
Some of the other oils may be OK as well, like Amsol and Royal Purple, but they are all synthetics. The Royal Purple has 4 times as much phophorus as Zinc, unlike the others which have nearly equal amounts of both Zn and P.
I will probably go with a deisel dyno oil plus an additive with both my gas and deisel engines on my next oil change. I am planning a multistore shopping trip this weekend with a print out from the lnengineering site, and I plan on taking some notes as to what is still on the shelf here.
What I mean is if all the phosphorus is from ZDDP, then the values for the zinc do make sense in those lab results, and visa versa, so I am thinking there is another phosphorus compound in some of these oils besides just ZDDP phosphorous, thus complicating matters. It is possible that there is phorphorus in some of the the detergent packages as well, in which case we can NOT tell how much ZDDP is in these oils just by looking at P concentration. For that reason I would look at Zn concentration only for now.
Also, it is the phosphorus that is mostly causing the catalyst damage according to one source I read today, but don't quote me on that yet.
GM has stoped selling the EOS product.
It looks to me like it would take a pint of STP Redline to make a significant increase in the zinc concentration in the oil it was added to, but the STP redline has much less detergent than the GM products did. That may or may not be good.
Power Service oil extender also looks good if it is still available.
All though I can not use synthetics on my old engines, some of you can, and the Mobil 1 EP 15W50 and the Mobil 1 mx4t 10W40 looks promising as far as synthetics go (that data was from tests done this year).
Some of the other oils may be OK as well, like Amsol and Royal Purple, but they are all synthetics. The Royal Purple has 4 times as much phophorus as Zinc, unlike the others which have nearly equal amounts of both Zn and P.
I will probably go with a deisel dyno oil plus an additive with both my gas and deisel engines on my next oil change. I am planning a multistore shopping trip this weekend with a print out from the lnengineering site, and I plan on taking some notes as to what is still on the shelf here.
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Try again:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-V...1QQihZ003QQcategoryZ46098QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
4 oz is not nearly enough for many of the oils now. I would go with more like a pint to be safe, or maybe 8-10 oz depending on the oil. The problem is we do not what is really left in the oil going on the store shelves now, as the test data on that link spans the last 2 years, so much of it is already outdated.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-V...1QQihZ003QQcategoryZ46098QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
4 oz is not nearly enough for many of the oils now. I would go with more like a pint to be safe, or maybe 8-10 oz depending on the oil. The problem is we do not what is really left in the oil going on the store shelves now, as the test data on that link spans the last 2 years, so much of it is already outdated.
cygnus58 said:
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Found this:
" Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 is formulated to provide outstanding engine protection for high performance engines and for consumers who want a higher viscosity oil and higher anti-wear performance ( ZDDP) than typically required by modern vehicles"
http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Extended_Performance_15W-50.aspx
Keep in mind it is synthetic.
" Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W-50 is formulated to provide outstanding engine protection for high performance engines and for consumers who want a higher viscosity oil and higher anti-wear performance ( ZDDP) than typically required by modern vehicles"
http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Extended_Performance_15W-50.aspx
Keep in mind it is synthetic.
That quote is not on that page.
I saw some of it at my local Advance store(only had 5w-30) I walked in undecided on which oil I wanted. I had been using castrol blend when I bought it, 75k. then RP them Mobil1, now I'm back with RP 10w-40. From the obsessive reading I've done, looks like Mobil, RP, Amsoil, and Redline have the highest zddp levels keeping SL ratings(not including the diesal oils which have been rumored to have also been dropping zddp). With 3K changes using any of these top's is the best it's gonna get, besides the said zinc phos additives which may or may not still be around for long. Maxlife Synthic is supposed to have high levels of zddp at the SL rating as well. I'm not sure about switching over to a fully syn with an old tired high mileage motor though.
Ever sent oil off to be analyzed mike?
I saw some of it at my local Advance store(only had 5w-30) I walked in undecided on which oil I wanted. I had been using castrol blend when I bought it, 75k. then RP them Mobil1, now I'm back with RP 10w-40. From the obsessive reading I've done, looks like Mobil, RP, Amsoil, and Redline have the highest zddp levels keeping SL ratings(not including the diesal oils which have been rumored to have also been dropping zddp). With 3K changes using any of these top's is the best it's gonna get, besides the said zinc phos additives which may or may not still be around for long. Maxlife Synthic is supposed to have high levels of zddp at the SL rating as well. I'm not sure about switching over to a fully syn with an old tired high mileage motor though.
Ever sent oil off to be analyzed mike?
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Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
RyanM said:
The quote was on this page:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_Extended_Performance.asp
I tried switching to 20W50 synthetic about 6 months ago and my 87 4.0 and it thought it was gas and took a nice quick drink before it decided to take leak everywhere.:bawl:
Not one of my more succesful experiments.:twak:
I do some analytical work off and on, and I do field sampling (environmental ... waste) myself.... but I do not regularly pull and send engine oil samples for analysis, YET! But I am thinking real hard about doing some.
Did you have a specific question on the oil sampling? One of my customers does send air compressor oil samples off for regular analysis of the air compressor oil. They two 150 HP electric air compressors.
OK fellows after reading links and rereading links and all that attached data what is the bottom line?
Should I assume that the current on the shelf dyno oils that we use (Q-State 10w30 in my case) lack the anti-wear agents needed for our older engines, many with 100k + miles of them?
What oil ratings that are marked on containers of oil tell us that the product "lack" the anti-wear agents we need? I mean if the rating is ...say...XX (whatever) ...should that send up a red flag that oil lack needed additives. Tell me what I should be looking for please.
If our oils lack these additives (Im going to assme they all do now) , what can I EASILY do to remedy this? Im not switching to syn oils and I dont want to buy cases of some additive thats sold over the internet....I hope you all know what I mean.
I regularly do oil changes on my XJ along with the other 3 cars my family owns every 5k miles. I go to the store purchase oil and filters, change oil and filter, clean up and Im on my way.
What needs to be done to my (other members probably do likewise) routine?
What about using a quart of diesil oil in place of a quart of my "regular" oil?
What about easily obtainable off the shelf additives? I would think any with enough anti-wear additives have been "banned" by now.
The "cure" needs to be e-z or many of us will shrug it off wondering in years to come why the internals of our engines "wore" out.
Should I assume that the current on the shelf dyno oils that we use (Q-State 10w30 in my case) lack the anti-wear agents needed for our older engines, many with 100k + miles of them?
What oil ratings that are marked on containers of oil tell us that the product "lack" the anti-wear agents we need? I mean if the rating is ...say...XX (whatever) ...should that send up a red flag that oil lack needed additives. Tell me what I should be looking for please.
If our oils lack these additives (Im going to assme they all do now) , what can I EASILY do to remedy this? Im not switching to syn oils and I dont want to buy cases of some additive thats sold over the internet....I hope you all know what I mean.
I regularly do oil changes on my XJ along with the other 3 cars my family owns every 5k miles. I go to the store purchase oil and filters, change oil and filter, clean up and Im on my way.
What needs to be done to my (other members probably do likewise) routine?
What about using a quart of diesil oil in place of a quart of my "regular" oil?
What about easily obtainable off the shelf additives? I would think any with enough anti-wear additives have been "banned" by now.
The "cure" needs to be e-z or many of us will shrug it off wondering in years to come why the internals of our engines "wore" out.
Came across this on the Petronas oil site...Note the term "dust" and Cat converters!
25. How does engine oil with API SM prolongs exhaust life span?
Most modern automotive exhaust utilizes catalytic converter that functions to reduce the pollution rate coming from the combustion products.
Normal engine oil exhibits higher production rate of dust that would lead to the shortening of “catalytic lifespan”.
PETRONAS engine oils that exceed API SM standard are specially formulated with high technology additives that inhibit the production of dust to a minimum level.
25. How does engine oil with API SM prolongs exhaust life span?
Most modern automotive exhaust utilizes catalytic converter that functions to reduce the pollution rate coming from the combustion products.
Normal engine oil exhibits higher production rate of dust that would lead to the shortening of “catalytic lifespan”.
PETRONAS engine oils that exceed API SM standard are specially formulated with high technology additives that inhibit the production of dust to a minimum level.
Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Interesting,
Sounds like a snake oil salesmans non-technical Tech fluff to push their Zn & P depleted oil to me. The dust they are describing is inorganic zinc phosphate and zinc sulphate and carbon/sulfur ash.
To answer, or partly answer your other question, the new SM and CJ-4 label is the absolute warning bell that it has less Zn & P in it.
As far as Dyno oils go the CJ-4 is not too bad yet, but it would need the additive in it in the case of Rotella T now, to have enough Zn & P for our older gas 4.0 & stroker engines. If you can find any old Shell Rotella T with the CI-4 and NOT THE CJ-4 listed on it I would consider it save until we can get more details from the oil companies as to what is what on the shelf this year. Also the old CI-4 Delvac 1300 super (made by Mobil!) and the Chevron Delo 400 were CI-4.
IF the label has CI-4 and CJ-4 on it, then it is really CJ-4, the new stuff with less Zn & P.
I have been running Sheel Rotella T in my 1982 NIssan SD22 deisel (in my Jeep) since 2002 but it was CI-4. The bottle I bought last week is CJ-4, so I am planning to try and take it back to find some old inventory of CI-4.
quote=ptf18]Came across this on the Petronas oil site...Note the term "dust" and Cat converters!
25. How does engine oil with API SM prolongs exhaust life span?
Most modern automotive exhaust utilizes catalytic converter that functions to reduce the pollution rate coming from the combustion products.
Normal engine oil exhibits higher production rate of dust that would lead to the shortening of “catalytic lifespan”.
PETRONAS engine oils that exceed API SM standard are specially formulated with high technology additives that inhibit the production of dust to a minimum level.[/quote]
Sounds like a snake oil salesmans non-technical Tech fluff to push their Zn & P depleted oil to me. The dust they are describing is inorganic zinc phosphate and zinc sulphate and carbon/sulfur ash.
To answer, or partly answer your other question, the new SM and CJ-4 label is the absolute warning bell that it has less Zn & P in it.
As far as Dyno oils go the CJ-4 is not too bad yet, but it would need the additive in it in the case of Rotella T now, to have enough Zn & P for our older gas 4.0 & stroker engines. If you can find any old Shell Rotella T with the CI-4 and NOT THE CJ-4 listed on it I would consider it save until we can get more details from the oil companies as to what is what on the shelf this year. Also the old CI-4 Delvac 1300 super (made by Mobil!) and the Chevron Delo 400 were CI-4.
IF the label has CI-4 and CJ-4 on it, then it is really CJ-4, the new stuff with less Zn & P.
I have been running Sheel Rotella T in my 1982 NIssan SD22 deisel (in my Jeep) since 2002 but it was CI-4. The bottle I bought last week is CJ-4, so I am planning to try and take it back to find some old inventory of CI-4.
quote=ptf18]Came across this on the Petronas oil site...Note the term "dust" and Cat converters!
25. How does engine oil with API SM prolongs exhaust life span?
Most modern automotive exhaust utilizes catalytic converter that functions to reduce the pollution rate coming from the combustion products.
Normal engine oil exhibits higher production rate of dust that would lead to the shortening of “catalytic lifespan”.
PETRONAS engine oils that exceed API SM standard are specially formulated with high technology additives that inhibit the production of dust to a minimum level.[/quote]
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Ecomike
NAXJA# 2091
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
I checked out the motor oil inventory at Advance Auto parts here in a Houston / Pasadena Tx, store today and found the following:
Found several of the older SL API spec oils still on the shelf:
Penzoil 20W50
Advance 20W50
Advance High mileage 20W50
Shell 10W40
Quaker state 10W40
Valvoline max Life 20W50
Kendall GT-1 50W
AND a NEW Mobil oil:
Mobil 1 High Mileage listed SL/CF (This is one I might recomend for synthetic oil users) It was available in 10W30 & 10W40. There was no test data on it in the original thread article.
The rest of the oils on the shelf at this store including Mobil EP 15W50 and a Royal Purple formula (sorry I did not right down which one) was already SM/CF Which I would avoid now.
I looked up the CF deisgnation and found this:
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/153.634
Note that the containers I found with CF listed on them were not CF-4 or CF-2, they were CF. Read to the bottom of the linked article and you will see that although CF-4 will no longer be an API licensed test after June 30, 2008, the CF standard will remain, and it is used in older military diesel equipment according the article.
I also found an API spec guide today for all the different C and S API oil specs at:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf
I found four other oils of interest (that I would recomend at this time for our engines) that were labeled API CI-4/SL:
Coastal Fleet 15W40 - CI-4, CF-2, CF/SL
Castrol Diesel 15W40 CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, SL
Mobil 1 Synthetic- Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 - CI-4, SL, CF (this would be the best synthetic available that I saw at this store for those of us using synthetic on lower mileage 4.0 and stroker Jeep engines)
Mobil (Dyno) Delvac 1300 Super - CI-4, CH-4, SL
Sadly I did not find anything left on the store shelves with an true SH or SJ rating.
I am curious as to how an oil can be rated CF & SM at the same time. Seemed like a contradiction, so the much older CF spec must not have had a specific higher ZDDP concentration requirement if it meets the SM requirment for less ZDDP.
I chose the Mobil Delvac 1300 super (Dyno) 15W40, with the CI-4, CH-4 and Sl compliance label as the best I could find for both my 87 Gas 4.0 and my 81 diesel engines. I hope to find a 20W50 rated oil for gas engine still, but for now I am stuck with Mobil Delvac plus some Lucas and possibly some ZDDP additive like Red STP if I can find any. They had the blue STP additive, but it does not have as much extra zinc and the Lucas I need and use to get my hot idle pressure at or above 20 has no ZDDP in it.
I still have 3 other local stores, O'Rileys and several Auto zone stores to check for their inventories here.
Also note, that each oils I listed above is a dyno oil, unless I listed it specifically as synthetic.
Found several of the older SL API spec oils still on the shelf:
Penzoil 20W50
Advance 20W50
Advance High mileage 20W50
Shell 10W40
Quaker state 10W40
Valvoline max Life 20W50
Kendall GT-1 50W
AND a NEW Mobil oil:
Mobil 1 High Mileage listed SL/CF (This is one I might recomend for synthetic oil users) It was available in 10W30 & 10W40. There was no test data on it in the original thread article.
The rest of the oils on the shelf at this store including Mobil EP 15W50 and a Royal Purple formula (sorry I did not right down which one) was already SM/CF Which I would avoid now.
I looked up the CF deisgnation and found this:
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/153.634
Note that the containers I found with CF listed on them were not CF-4 or CF-2, they were CF. Read to the bottom of the linked article and you will see that although CF-4 will no longer be an API licensed test after June 30, 2008, the CF standard will remain, and it is used in older military diesel equipment according the article.
I also found an API spec guide today for all the different C and S API oil specs at:
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf
I found four other oils of interest (that I would recomend at this time for our engines) that were labeled API CI-4/SL:
Coastal Fleet 15W40 - CI-4, CF-2, CF/SL
Castrol Diesel 15W40 CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, SL
Mobil 1 Synthetic- Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40 - CI-4, SL, CF (this would be the best synthetic available that I saw at this store for those of us using synthetic on lower mileage 4.0 and stroker Jeep engines)
Mobil (Dyno) Delvac 1300 Super - CI-4, CH-4, SL
Sadly I did not find anything left on the store shelves with an true SH or SJ rating.
I am curious as to how an oil can be rated CF & SM at the same time. Seemed like a contradiction, so the much older CF spec must not have had a specific higher ZDDP concentration requirement if it meets the SM requirment for less ZDDP.
I chose the Mobil Delvac 1300 super (Dyno) 15W40, with the CI-4, CH-4 and Sl compliance label as the best I could find for both my 87 Gas 4.0 and my 81 diesel engines. I hope to find a 20W50 rated oil for gas engine still, but for now I am stuck with Mobil Delvac plus some Lucas and possibly some ZDDP additive like Red STP if I can find any. They had the blue STP additive, but it does not have as much extra zinc and the Lucas I need and use to get my hot idle pressure at or above 20 has no ZDDP in it.
I still have 3 other local stores, O'Rileys and several Auto zone stores to check for their inventories here.
Also note, that each oils I listed above is a dyno oil, unless I listed it specifically as synthetic.
