New motor oil wear problems on older engines

Regarding the earlier discussion on engine oil shelf life, I just found this:

Engine Oil Shelf Life.

I couldn't decide whether to put this in the FAQ or the main page, so it's in both, because I get asked this question a lot. Typically, the question is along the lines of "GenericAutoSuperStore are having a sale on WickedlySlippy Brand synthetic oil. If I buy it now, how long can I keep if before I use it?"
In general, liquid lubricants (ie. oils, not greases) will remain intact for a number of years. The main factor affecting the life of the oil is the storage condition for the products. Exposure to extreme temperature changes, and moisture will reduce the shelf life of the lubricants. ie. don't leave in the sun with the lid off. Best to keep them sealed and unopened.

Technically, engine oils have shelf lives of four to five years. However, as years pass, unused engine oils can become obsolete and fail to meet the technical requirements of current engines. The specs get updated regularly based on new scientific testing procedures and engine requirements. But this is only really a concern if you've bought a brand new car but have engine oil you bought for the previous car. An oil that is a number of years old might not be formulated to meet the requirements set for your newer engine.

If your unopened containers of engine oil are more than three years old, read the labels to make sure they meet the latest industry standards. If they do meet the current standards, you might want to take the extra precaution of obtaining oil analysis before using them. An oil analysis will check for key properties of the oil and ensure that it still meets the original manufacturing specs. Of course the cost of getting an analysis done on old oil is probably going to outweigh going and buying fresh stuff. So it's a double-edged sword.
As a general rule, the simpler the oil formulation, the longer the shelf life. The following is a guideline under protected conditions:
Product Shelf Life Base Oils, Process Oils 3 years Hydraulic Oils, Compressor Oils, General Purpose Lubricating Oils 2 years Engine Oils and Transmission Oils 3 years Industrial and Automotive Gear Oils 2 years Metal Working and Cutting Oils 1 year The following are signs of storage instability in a lubricant:
  • Settling out of the additives as a gel or sticky liquid
  • Floc or haze
  • Precipitates/solid material
  • Colour change or haziness
Water contamination in a lubricant can be detected by a "milky" appearance of the product.



AT:



http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boos...ntenance Bibles Oil_files/engineoil_bible.htm



I also found tech data sheets from Chevron that actually list the Zn & P concentration in their motor oils! The one I pulled up was dated 2005 unfortunately, but at least they listed their Zn & P concentration spec!



https://www.cbest.chevron.com/msdsS...guage=EN&country=&region=NA&isLoginPage=true"
 
I've been following this thread with interest and worry. I'm still not certain as to what engines are affected. Are all XJ's affected? I read the article stating 95 and earlier vehicles are of concern. I have a 97 with a 4.0. Are all of these engines the same design where this problem matters?

I only have 126K on mine, and I plan to keep it for a long time.

thanks
 
RyanM said:
Yeah since Mobil 1 is not a true POA base synthetic anymore. They sued Castrol for using Hydrocrack, not they are producing the same quality oil. I've been running RP for a while now. It keeps my 4.0 at N.O.T. and it's a true POA.
Click to expand...
Do you have a reference for that? I've heard this before, that even Mobil1 has switched from PAO to Hydrocracked Crude, but never saw anything more substantial than a word of mouth rumor on internet forums. I'd like to know for sure?

Sorry guys, I didn't read the entire thread, I may be retreading old ground already covered. BUT, I say its a safe bet that if an oil has the API seal that states it meets spec SM on the bottle, then that oil has the lowered P and Zn content, like the qoute said in the original post, regardless who bottle/manufacturered it. If it had a higher than specified P and Zn content, then they couldn't put the seal on the bottle.

I "thought" at least Zinc additives were just extra protection for unussual extremes, aids in protection during metal to metal contact if the oil film breaks down. Many oil formulations were already moving away from high levels of zinc, since it rarely got used and didn't help that much, but did add to deposits and ash in the motor.

Phosphorous, not sure what that does in the oil, it has lots of drawbacks as well, since its a pretty reactive chemical, maybe its there to help nuetralize contaminates in the oil.
 
Rick,

You do need to read the entire post and the links. The Zinc phosphate (ZDDP, an organic zinc phosphate, all one molecule) is there to protect high pressure contact areas like flat tappet contact areas and the cam lobes in particular. The latest SM and CJ-4 labeled definately do not contain engough ZDDP zinc phosphate to properly protect the 4.0 lifters and cams from excess wear and sticking problems, especially in rebuilt/new engines where catestophic cam falures have already been common on new 4.0's when they do not have adequite (extra) ZDDP protection added, but it is also an issue for long live, longevity of the used 4.0's as well.

Follow the links and references in this thread, the detailed answers are there.

Many of use have already experienced lifter noise and strange oil pressure issues that I am begining to suspect are at least partly related to the continuing reduction of ZDDP concentration in the motor oils that has been underway for a while now. It has recently been reduced in concentration to a point where it is inefective in our engines. The newer engines do not need the higher ZDDP concentrations as they do not use the flat tappets and do not see the extreem contact pressures that flat tappet engines see in the lifter / cam area.

I suspect the Mobil 1 question is yes to both. I think they are using both base stocks and it varies between the Mobil 1 formulas as to which is using what. They are using the Mobil 1 name on all their motor oil blends now, including the dyno oils they currently offer. Thus making it confusing.

Rick Anderson said:
Do you have a reference for that? I've heard this before, that even Mobil1 has switched from PAO to Hydrocracked Crude, but never saw anything more substantial than a word of mouth rumor on internet forums. I'd like to know for sure?

Sorry guys, I didn't read the entire thread, I may be retreading old ground already covered. BUT, I say its a safe bet that if an oil has the API seal that states it meets spec SM on the bottle, then that oil has the lowered P and Zn content, like the qoute said in the original post, regardless who bottle/manufacturered it. If it had a higher than specified P and Zn content, then they couldn't put the seal on the bottle.

I "thought" at least Zinc additives were just extra protection for unussual extremes, aids in protection during metal to metal contact if the oil film breaks down. Many oil formulations were already moving away from high levels of zinc, since it rarely got used and didn't help that much, but did add to deposits and ash in the motor.

Phosphorous, not sure what that does in the oil, it has lots of drawbacks as well, since its a pretty reactive chemical, maybe its there to help nuetralize contaminates in the oil.
Click to expand...
 
The primary reason the additive package has been cut back is due to the materials damaging the catalyctic converters....or so they say. Not because it is not needed....just that Most Modern engines can make the mandated reliability numbers without it.
 
MudDawg said:
The primary reason the additive package has been cut back is due to the materials damaging the catalyctic converters....or so they say. Not because it is not needed....just that Most Modern engines can make the mandated reliability numbers without it.
Click to expand...

Yes, and the sad part is that EPA as they too often do is simply replacing one problem with another. If some (or all) engines wear faster due to reduced ZDDP levels, they leak more oil faster into the exhaust thus increasing the mass flow of oil into the exhaust and thus the mass flow rate of ZDDP to Cat converter, thus negating the potential possitive effects they hoped for on the Cat converter.

Instead of a cheap easy to replace cat converter they get to replace the oil burning engine. Nice Economic , very sustainable economic decision don't you think?
 
OK fellows it seems that what we are going to get in the future are lubricants less the additives the our engines "need" for LONG term wear resistance.

Well what are WE going to do?

Were not going to be accomodated by ANYONE so any "fix" is going to have to come from us...the people who are going to have to pay for mis "deal" one way or the other.

Perhaps switching to diesel engine oils is an idea or perhaps there are bottled additives used in other applications that we could obtain easily that we could use.

Lets come up with our own "fix".

Ive got a '88 XJ with 245k on the engine and its never been openned. I'ld sure like to see it make another 200k without it being "worn out" due to lack of needed additives.

Ideas fellows?
 
Additives are available but probably not for too long. GM EOS has already been pulled by yhe dealers. My local Chevy house said it was recalled by GM and not to be sold. They were instructed to return it to their distribution centers for a credit.
Some of the high priced synthetics which are still on the shelves at my local parts house are OK. Some of the older Mobil 1 15w50 and some real expensive Royal Purple stuff. After that is gone we are in trouble with our older vehicles.
Could not find any additives today while scouring the shelves at my Advance, O'Reillys or AutoZone. Going to the NAPA store in AM.
 
JeffU said:
Mobil has re introduced the standard Mobil 1. This is not their "new" extended 15 K Mobil 1. According to their own site it has the additional wear additives.

I have been running this Mobil 1 in my 351 Cleveland for years. .

I have been afraid to switch to synthetic in the XJ (150K) because it is pretty much leak free.
Click to expand...

I have been using Mobil 1 20w50 in my XJ for about a year and one half but I put a remanufactured engine in and put Dino oil in it to break it in then switched to the Mobil 1. All my other vehicles also use the Mobil 1 in them. My Chevy 350 with 121000 has had Mobil 1 since break in and my Miata has the same Mobil 1 in it.
But the new stuff on the sheves is not the same as what I have been using. Except the stuff I mentioned in a previous post none of the full synthetic stuff has the needed ZDDP any longer.
 
Mike,

From the Mobil 1 site.

"Mobil 1 15W-50 is formulated with SuperSyn, an extra-high viscosity synthetic fluid, plus extra anti-wear additive to provide extra protection for severe service applications such as towing, hauling and racing. Mobil 1 15W-50 is recommended for high performance vehicles including turbocharged and supercharged engines where a thicker oil film is desired.

Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles. Mobil 1 15W-50 will also provide better anti-wear protection for higher valve spring tensions in certain racing engines. "


Not sure what they are adding to this "New" formula. But I am hoping it is as advertised for older engine protection. The Cleveland in my Pantera is only changed once a year and sits 1-2 weeks between drives.

This does not however help me with my XJ or daughter's 01 Mustang with 80 K.
 
Ptf18,

Uh, let me see here, if it's already made it to 245K then hasn't it already made it to 200K?

In answer to your question, we are all going to panic and go jump off a rock somewhere! :laugh:

Some of the diesel oils are multi rated, for gas and diesel. What you need to do for now is shop for and buy oil by the API spec, using the old dyno oil diesel/gas rated CH-4/SL spec instead of buying by the brand name only for now if you use dyno oil. Also many of the synthetics seem to have the older SL rated gas engine oil still on the shelf here and there, and guys like Royal Puple seem to be planning on continuing to offer the older synthetic Sl as well as the newer synthetic SM oils. Just shop around and make sure the store managers know to keep the older CH-4/SL stuff in stock as long as it is available for us.

I suspect the major oil distributors will still be able to get the older spec dual rated (Diesel/gas) CH-4/SL oil in 5 gallon and 55 gallon drums for large industrial customers with older diesel rigs for quite some time. At some point we might need to go to them and buy it in 5 gallon containers, or co-op with other local jeep owners. But we are not there yet there as far as I can tell. The off road racing oils should still be an option too.

Also I won't be surprised if the snake oil artists jump on this with new ZDDP additive offers any day now!

You won't need any additives if you use the diesel/gas dual rated oils with the API CH-4/SL spec on them from what I can find and from the Shell chemist said and other references I posted last week here, they still have plenty of ZDDP in them for us to use on Jeeps.

JeffU, Do you have link to the Mobil 1 site that makes the ZDDP claims on the old Mobil 1 you just posted about? Also how does one tell the difference between the two? Is it simply API SL rated instead of SM rated on the label? Or better yet SF rated?

Mikeforte,

Did you read my shopping post from 5-6 days ago here with the list of oils I still found on the shelf in Houston? If they are still here in Houston where inventory moves pretty fast, they should still be able to get them down there. Just need to tell the store managers specifically what to order.

ptf18 said:
OK fellows it seems that what we are going to get in the future are lubricants less the additives the our engines "need" for LONG term wear resistance.

Well what are WE going to do?

Were not going to be accomodated by ANYONE so any "fix" is going to have to come from us...the people who are going to have to pay for mis "deal" one way or the other.

Perhaps switching to diesel engine oils is an idea or perhaps there are bottled additives used in other applications that we could obtain easily that we could use.

Lets come up with our own "fix".

Ive got a '88 XJ with 245k on the engine and its never been openned. I'ld sure like to see it make another 200k without it being "worn out" due to lack of needed additives.

Ideas fellows?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
JeffU,

If you want to solve that leak free problem just put synthetic in it, works great, ask me how I know!:scared: :rolleyes:

JeffU said:
I have been afraid to switch to synthetic in the XJ (150K) because it is pretty much leak free.
Click to expand...
 
Mike,

Again pulled from the Mobil 1 site.

"API SM/SL

Requirements for Diesel Powered Vehicles where an API CF or API CD is recommended

Provides extra anti-wear additive for older vehicles "

At Wally World they had both Mobil 1 Extended 15K and Mobil 1 both in the 15W -50 . The re released just is the older Black logo style.

No mention of ZDDP . Must be a new additive of ??????
 
Snake oil rides again!

OK, I checked the Mobil 1 15W50 link and it CLAIMS that it meets SL and SM specs, if that is the case they are not doing it with the old ZDDP technology because the SM API spec does not allow the high ZDDP concentrations.

If they are in fact actually meeting the SL spec they are doing it with something new and in my book as yet unproven on the road in our engines. Maybe they are doing it with more Boron like we read about in the first link sites on this thread, but I have my doubt's. It simply can't meet API SL spec with .12 % zinc and meet the lower zinc limit of API SM spec at the same time.

We should ask the Mobil 1 chemists for proof of their claims and an explaination of the SM/SL claims they are making and the discrepancy their claim creates!:eyes:

JeffU said:
Mike,

From the Mobil 1 site.

"Mobil 1 15W-50 is formulated with SuperSyn, an extra-high viscosity synthetic fluid, plus extra anti-wear additive to provide extra protection for severe service applications such as towing, hauling and racing. Mobil 1 15W-50 is recommended for high performance vehicles including turbocharged and supercharged engines where a thicker oil film is desired.

Mobil 1 15W-50 is also recommended for older valve train designs that may benefit from a higher level of anti-wear normally not required for newer generation vehicles. Mobil 1 15W-50 will also provide better anti-wear protection for higher valve spring tensions in certain racing engines. "


Not sure what they are adding to this "New" formula. But I am hoping it is as advertised for older engine protection. The Cleveland in my Pantera is only changed once a year and sits 1-2 weeks between drives.

This does not however help me with my XJ or daughter's 01 Mustang with 80 K.
Click to expand...
 
Folks keep mentioning GM EOS has been discontinued, but you can still get AC Delco EOS, which from everything I've read is the same stuff as the GM. It's not cheap, though. You'd be better off buying the older oil.
 
OK, now, Yes,No. Does Castrol GTX 20-50 high mileage contain proper levels? Or their "Off Road".
When I called them about the flat tappet issue, they didn't suggest any of their oil...
Yet I see in the one link long ago in this thread, it is acceptable.
 
sgtpeeper said:
Folks keep mentioning GM EOS has been discontinued, but you can still get AC Delco EOS, which from everything I've read is the same stuff as the GM. It's not cheap, though. You'd be better off buying the older oil.
Click to expand...

Are there any other similar products out there? Anyone know what goes into Lucas Oil Stabilizer? What about mixing a product like Clevite Cam Guard or another assembly lubricant specified for camshaft break-in with the oil?
 
sgtpeeper said:
Folks keep mentioning GM EOS has been discontinued, but you can still get AC Delco EOS, which from everything I've read is the same stuff as the GM. It's not cheap, though. You'd be better off buying the older oil.
Click to expand...

I looked at the AC Delco additive, but could not find clear evidence that it still contains ZDDP, nor how much it contains. Perhaps one of you brave, board souls can call or email them and get some solid data from them?

cygnus58,

Some places still have old inventory laying around, so look for the absence of the SM label, and presence of CI-4 and or SF on API symbol on the back. If it has SM anywhere on it it is the newer, unknown stuff with less ZDDP. IF it does not have SM or CJ-4 on the label and it does have CI-4 and or SL on the label, it is at least what we were getting the last few years, marginal ZDDP for SL label, excellent for the CI-4 label.

Never mind what brand what it is, except maybe avoid Penzoil still, and make sure to get the kind of oil you want, i.e. synthetic or Dyno oil, in the viscosity you normally use.

Lucas does not have any ZDDP in it. See the original link test data, Lucas was listed there, tested zero for ZDDP.
 
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