You're either S.W.A.T or you're not-

[IXNAYXJ]

And I'm not. But I got to play like it a little bit last night! I was having a PM exchange with one of the NWC members (bknudtsen) the other day about guns and other random crap when it came up that he was a member of a local Special Weapons And Tactics team.

"Wow, that's cool as hell. You'll have to show me how to shoot sometime," was my initial response. I didn't really expect his response to be, "No problem, how about Wednesday night?"

I quickly regained composure and responded calmly, "Hell fawking YEAH!!!!"

It gets better, too. Rather than go to a local range and have to deal with civilian rabble with little or no concept of muzzle awareness, we went to the Bellevue PD's range and had the whole place to ourselves.

Also to my surprise, Brad told me to that we'd also be able to shoot his AR15/M4. AND he told me to bring my Springfield SOCOM II .308. I was a little sceptical that we would be able to shoot the large caliber stuff, but I sure wasn't going to complain.

We met at a great little BBQ joint near the range, ironically called "3 Pigs," for some sustenance. It quickly became apparent just how much a bad-ass Brad is. We talked a bunch about weapons, tactics and the mind set that is required for SWAT action. Not only is Brad a member, he's the President...oops, I mean lead training officer as well as a state certified pistol, rifle and shotgun trainer.

We started out with some pistol drills and addressing some bad habits I've picked up. My shooting went from decent, to pretty good in no time, and I'm confident that practicing some of the things Brad showed me will bear fruit quickly. In contrast, he's a surgeon with his HK USP Tactical. Speaking of which, it was interesting to go back and forth between my regular .45 USP and his .40 Tactical.

Then we got out the big stuff. We were both itching to shoot each other's rifles and we each put a bunch of rounds through both weapons.

Here's Brad playing around with the SOCOM:

Here's a quick video of me shooting the Springfield. Let me be the first to tell you that the sound in the video does not do a 7.62 round out of a 16" barrel in a concrete box ANY justice! WOW!

Boom!

Here's the group; 20 rounds, one hole. At the max 25 yds, the small target is supposed to simulate 100 yards:

Then Brad upped the stakes and pulls out his issue HK MP5. Yeah, the real full-auto one. All of a sudden, everything became blurry except for that. I'm not even going to try to explain too much...just watch this:

MP5, full auto.

Followed immediately by this.

With some free rounds left to shoot, grinning like little kids, we did some of this:

Rapid fire M4

Afterwards we went to a local cop bar and washed the cordite out of our teeth with a few beers and talked Jeeps, guns and swapped lies. Okay, he told me some kick-ass stories, and I told lies. Really, though, there is some really fascinating psychology that they're taught about. I ate it up with a shovel.

I've talked Brad into continuing my education, so I'll post up some pics from our next outing when it happens. I'm also trying to talk him into coming to one of our upcoming Gunfests and being the official NWC armorer and weapons trainer.

Thanks again, Brad!

-----Matt-----

 

[JBweld]

I've talked Brad into continuing my education, so I'll post up some pics from our next outing when it happens. I'm also trying to talk him into coming to one of our upcoming Gunfests and being the official NWC armorer and weapons trainer.

Thanks again, Brad!

-----Matt-----

OH HELL YEAH! You've got my number right, Matt?

That's awesome Brad. I have much to learn. :worship:

 

[IXNAYXJ]

OH HELL YEAH! You've got my number right, Matt?

That's awesome Brad. I have much to learn. :worship:

Yup! Get ready for Gunfest mk V this summer. Once the Tinkham snow melts, it'll be on like...like something that's on.

-----Matt-----

 

[bknudtsen]

Matt,

It was good to meet you. It's always fun dumping huge amounts of lead down range for no good reason. There's just something about full-auto fire that brightens my day. I actually have something in the works that should one up this outing. Until then........

Thanks for letting me shoot your SOCOM 16. It's hard to believe that there's a full auto version of that. Now wouldn't that be fun! Too bad it weighs more than a Dana 30. lol

I'm looking forward to getting out and wheeling with ya.

See ya later,


Brad

 

[IXNAYXJ]

I actually have something in the works that should one up this outing. Until then....

Tease.

Looking forward to it!

-----Matt-----

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

There's just something about full-auto fire that brightens my day.

Now that there's a sig quote!

 

[Blkxjkrawler]

OH HELL YEAH! You've got my number right, Matt?

That's awesome Brad. I have much to learn. :worship:

2ND that... BTW thanks for calling to rub it in Matt, nothing interupts what you thought was a great evening like listening to one of your friends call and try to relay the above story through giddy school girl laughter
Ryan

 

[IXNAYXJ]

BTW thanks for calling to rub it in Matt, nothing interupts what you thought was a great evening like listening to one of your friends call and try to relay the above story through giddy school girl laughter.

Ryan

:roflmao: Don't make me post any of these pics to complete the boasting:

:shhh:

-----Matt-----

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

is the red one a Dino?

 

[JBweld]

mmmmm....Laguna Seca.....

What were we talking about?

 

[IXNAYXJ]

is the red one a Dino?

Pretty. 1970 Dino 246, V-6:

Gorgeous. 1961 Ferrari 250 GT Berlinetta SWB, V-12:

(It was the a SWB)

-----Matt-----

 

[JBweld]

Sorry to change the subject back to guns (I do dig the Ferraris).

Brad, what mods have you done to your AR? I've got a bare bones Bushmaster that I'd like to improve. Any suggestions, quality products you've used?

 

[bknudtsen]

Sorry to change the subject back to guns (I do dig the Ferraris).

Brad, what mods have you done to your AR? I've got a bare bones Bushmaster that I'd like to improve. Any suggestions, quality products you've used?

Larue Tactical makes the best rail systems and optics mounts in my opinion. Aimpoint red dot sights are my favorite. I use Vltor and Tangodown furniture, and Troy backup iron sights.

As far as suggetions go....it depends on what you want to do with it. My best advice is to get really comfortable with the iron sights and proficient in manipulating the rifle. From there its a matter keeping it practical for what its intended purpose is. I think a really good light source is important. I use Surefire exclusively because I have found them to be the only lights that will hold up to the longterm abuse that goes with tactical rifle use.

Brad

 

[JBweld]

Larue Tactical makes the best rail systems and optics mounts in my opinion. Aimpoint red dot sights are my favorite. I use Vltor and Tangodown furniture, and Troy backup iron sights.

As far as suggetions go....it depends on what you want to do with it. My best advice is to get really comfortable with the iron sights and proficient in manipulating the rifle. From there its a matter keeping it practical for what its intended purpose is. I think a really good light source is important. I use Surefire exclusively because I have found them to be the only lights that will hold up to the longterm abuse that goes with tactical rifle use.

Brad

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd like to set it up like a CQB rifle, but I need to do some basic stuff, like get a longer barrel. I currently have an 11.5" with a fixed flash hider. What a waste. I know I can pick up some velocity/accuracy with a 14.5" or 16" barrel. I've looked at, and like the Larue FF rail system. I also like Matt's aimpoint. What do you think about Eotech holo sites?

 

[IXNAYXJ]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd like to set it up like a CQB rifle, but I need to do some basic stuff, like get a longer barrel. I currently have an 11.5" with a fixed flash hider. What a waste. I know I can pick up some velocity/accuracy with a 14.5" or 16" barrel. I've looked at, and like the Larue FF rail system. I also like Matt's aimpoint. What do you think about Eotech holo sites?

Meh, Brad's only running a 13"-ish barrell IIRC. For CQB I don't think it'll make a huge difference, but I'll let Brad answer that.

-----Matt-----

 

[Slacker87XJ]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd like to set it up like a CQB rifle, but I need to do some basic stuff, like get a longer barrel. I currently have an 11.5" with a fixed flash hider. What a waste. I know I can pick up some velocity/accuracy with a 14.5" or 16" barrel. I've looked at, and like the Larue FF rail system. I also like Matt's aimpoint. What do you think about Eotech holo sites?

I won't pretend to be an expert, but when I swapped the 11.5" barrel on my AR for a 16" DPMS barrel, my groups at 100m went from 8" or so to under 3" (handguard not floated, iron sights, prone). I don't think the short barrel is to blame so much as the 5.5" 'flash hider' that is pinned to the barrel to make it ATF legal. Lots of turbulence there after the bullet has left the muzzle.

Don't bother with a heavy barrel like I did - it upsets the balance of the rifle and I doubt it contributes little if anything to accuracy at that range and with that barrel length.

BTW, I have all the armorer's tools for a barrel swap when you get around to it.

-i

 

[JBweld]

I won't pretend to be an expert, but when I swapped the 11.5" barrel on my AR for a 16" DPMS barrel, my groups at 100m went from 8" or so to under 3" (handguard not floated, iron sights, prone). I don't think the short barrel is to blame so much as the 5.5" 'flash hider' that is pinned to the barrel to make it ATF legal. Lots of turbulence there after the bullet has left the muzzle.-i

I think the short barrels are Ok if you can use them as intended without a long flash hider on it. Brad can probably can have a short barreled rifle because of his LEO status. But us sheeple have to stick to the 16" length. No big deal really. The longer barrel does make them more accurate at distance.

I think my biggest problem now is not enough time at the range with it.

Don't bother with a heavy barrel like I did - it upsets the balance of the rifle and I doubt it contributes little if anything to accuracy at that range and with that barrel length.

BTW, I have all the armorer's tools for a barrel swap when you get around to it.

-i

Yeah, I was going to get a M4 profile barrel. They're a lot lighter.
Thanks for the offer on the tools Ian. I'll probably take you up on that!

Jeremy

 

[ECKSJAY]

I won't pretend to be an expert, but when I swapped the 11.5" barrel on my AR for a 16" DPMS barrel, my groups at 100m went from 8" or so to under 3" (handguard not floated, iron sights, prone). I don't think the short barrel is to blame so much as the 5.5" 'flash hider' that is pinned to the barrel to make it ATF legal. Lots of turbulence there after the bullet has left the muzzle.

Your biggest issue is that there's not enough push from the gasses to get good velocity on the bullet. There's a point on an AR where the barrel becomes 'too' short...and again a point where it's 'too' long. You won't be able to get a decent MOA from a short barrel because of that. All they're really good for is CQB, in which case I'd take another caliber anyway.

 

[bknudtsen]

ECKSJAY already hit on it, but here's the basics on an AR direct impingment gas system. The rifle uses the gas pressure created by the fired round to cycle the action. Under the front sight post is a port in the barrel the the spent gas travels up and back to the bolt carrier key via the gas tube. This does not happen until the bullet itself passes the gas port. Then the gas pressure is doing two things; propelling the bullet out the end of the barrel and cycling the action.

If the barrel is too short, then the pressure will escape the barrel before the bullet reaches its intended velocity, and the pressure in the gas tube will back-bleed, causing the action to short stroke. This is an issue with 10.5" barrels. Some run, some don't. The other big issue is that the bullet's velocity is barely fast enough to cause it to fragment upon impact. .223 or 5.56mm rounds need the higher velocity to to their jobs, otherwise they just zip right through their intended target.

So, the minimum barrel length I would recommend for civilian use would be 16". 14.5" with a permanantly attached flash-hider, making it 16" OAL, is also acceptable. 11.5" barrels don't seem to have the short stroking problems that 10.5 barrels have, but they typically don't have reliable velocities for any distances greater than maybe 50 yards.

Wow, that's a lot of words. Here's a picture.

Brad

 

[IXNAYXJ]

ECKSJAY already hit on it, but here's the basics on an AR direct impingment gas system. The rifle uses the gas pressure created by the fired round to cycle the action. Under the front sight post is a port in the barrel the the spent gas travels up and back to the bolt carrier key via the gas tube. This does not happen until the bullet itself passes the gas port. Then the gas pressure is doing two things; propelling the bullet out the end of the barrel and cycling the action.

If the barrel is too short, then the pressure will escape the barrel before the bullet reaches its intended velocity, and the pressure in the gas tube will back-bleed, causing the action to short stroke. This is an issue with 10.5" barrels. Some run, some don't. The other big issue is that the bullet's velocity is barely fast enough to cause it to fragment upon impact. .223 or 5.56mm rounds need the higher velocity to to their jobs, otherwise they just zip right through their intended target.

So, the minimum barrel length I would recommend for civilian use would be 16". 14.5" with a permanantly attached flash-hider, making it 16" OAL, is also acceptable. 11.5" barrels don't seem to have the short stroking problems that 10.5 barrels have, but they typically don't have reliable velocities for any distances greater than maybe 50 yards.

Wow, that's a lot of words. Here's a picture.

Brad

Good info, thanks Brad.

-----Matt-----