the ultamate front axle??

[Mr.OverKill]

for all around use ( West coast dunes and rocks ) for the money that is???

is it the venerable HP D60 ( king pin or otherwise )
or the HP D44 ( strength is not always the first priority )
the HP D30 ( we have it, it works )
the latest wave of custom 609's ( alot of money for what gains?? )
the 44/9 setups ( dont really know much on them )
the 44/60 combos
or the bad talked but in expensive HP D50 from the F250
or the newer dodge LP D60 ( easy and cheap to find )
how about the rare and massively strong Corp 14 bolt front axle?
what about a totally custom housing of my own design with D60 outers
or a 14 bolt with 60 outers ?? you get the picture......

throwing these Q's out before i start throwing money to the four winds, those of you that know me know i will save on fab work since i do all of my own and dont need to buy brackets or pay for re-tubeing ect...


let the debate begin

P.S. i live to build the ultimate axle that will be Budget Built and Bullet Proof and i want your honest opinions, not what billy said if you get my meaning, your thoughts and reasoning.

Thanks

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

For the dunes you need a light axle, but you have big tires because you need them for rocks, so you need a strong knuckle. Axles shafts you want the strongest you can get. Portals are no good for Dunes, too much leverage to brake.

If I built a custom axle for dunes/rocks. It would be a light weight well trussed ford 9in high pinnion, completely off set to one side like a moon buggie. With after market D60 Inner C's and outer knuckles. 35 spline inners and outers.

The cheapest best option would be a d44 with alloys and trussed, ok for up to 37s maybe 38s if you jumping it big.

 

[David Taylor]

for all around use ( West coast dunes and rocks ) for the money that is???

I feel the best axle is spider 9,hi9, CTM axles,u-joints,stubs Ball joint. Light and strong. But thats just me.

 

[Goatman]

I think the best axle for all of us is one that's just a little bit stronger than the one we're running.

 

[Matt S.]

I think the best axle for all of us is one that's just a little bit stronger than the one we're running.

Thats awesome! This must mean my dana 30 is SUPER strong!arty:

Troy... 9"/60 stuff is key.

 

[FarmerMatt]

P.S. i live to build the ultimate axle that will be Budget Built and Bullet Proof and i want your honest opinions, not what billy said if you get my meaning, your thoughts and reasoning.

Thanks

This is a contradiction in terms. We've all been through this & budget built is subjective to say the least... I've got just about the exact front end that Ashman described. It's a 609 that came out of a moon buggy with ball joint knuckles. I bought the complete front end minus differential for $2000, used. I than dropped another 2K on a high9. I had to get my long side inner shafts cut down & made into my short sides & than buy new long side shafts because of the pinion off set difference when converting the front end from "moon buggy" to standard 9". This & all the misc. parts for rebuild (fresh ball joints, wheel bearings, seals) plus the steel for fabbing links & mounts puts me @ around $5000-$5200 for this front end, but this includes the ram for hydro assist, full set of alloy 35 spline inner & outer shafts with CTM's, & a full set of alloy spare shafts. When adding thins all up going with new parts to build this front end I was pushing the 8K mark so I feel I did this farely economical...

My advice would be to polish the turdy. Truss it & throw in alloy's. Save your money untill you can build the front end of your dreams. Watch the sales boards like Pirate for workable front end that used to save some more $$. Most of us have been down the dana 44 route & we're just not getting the strength where we need it. The knuckles & ball joints get some beef, but the axle shafts & joints see no benefit in strength.

Matt

Pic stolen from Jes...

 

[caglezxj]

I do not live around any dunes. But we have a lot of rocks here. I asked the question before and told what tires size I wanted to run. Everyone told me that a 44 would not hold up. I found a dana 44 from a ford 3/4 ton it had 8 lugs, over the knuckle steering, chromo inners and outers, ctms , detroit locker and 5.13's . I bought the brackets already made from RE. I make everything now, but didn't have the time or some of the tools before. My axle came with spare shafts, warn premium hubs and 1 ctm and rebuild kit. All of this with brackets I had like 2,000.00 with my labor welding brackets on. I then trussed the complete axle to mount my double ended steering cylinder.

I run Irok's 39.5 and have bounced it hard several times and it is still holding together. I try to take it easy, but there is times you can't. And it has not failed me yet. It might on my next ride. But I doubt it. I have some video's of me getting some air, I need to post them up.

 

[Capt. Nemo]

Is this for a daily driver/weekend warrior, or a dedicated trail rig? There has been a huge amount of attention spent lately on (expensive) axle build-ups, but are we able to justify the cost over how much we're actually going to use it? Or, are the parts we're using now failing regularly and require an upgrade?

Most parts failures on properly set-up equipment is a result of fatigue over time. Hitting a trail once every couple of months may not require an expensive axle, but just some good maintenance. Getting out once every other week may be justification to drop the coin. Just another perspective to consider.

For the average guy doing a little bit tougher stuff, a well built D44 should suffice (of course, tire size plays a role). If you're drooling over 40's and hitting JV every other weekend, breaking parts, and shedding sheet metal - you may want to save for something beyond a D44. :dunno:

 

[Smittty9785]

for all around use ( West coast dunes and rocks ) for the money that is???

is it the venerable HP D60 ( king pin or otherwise )
or the HP D44 ( strength is not always the first priority )
the HP D30 ( we have it, it works )
the latest wave of custom 609's ( alot of money for what gains?? )
the 44/9 setups ( dont really know much on them )
the 44/60 combos
or the bad talked but in expensive HP D50 from the F250
or the newer dodge LP D60 ( easy and cheap to find )
how about the rare and massively strong Corp 14 bolt front axle?
what about a totally custom housing of my own design with D60 outers
or a 14 bolt with 60 outers ?? you get the picture......

throwing these Q's out before i start throwing money to the four winds, those of you that know me know i will save on fab work since i do all of my own and dont need to buy brackets or pay for re-tubeing ect...


let the debate begin

P.S. i live to build the ultimate axle that will be Budget Built and Bullet Proof and i want your honest opinions, not what billy said if you get my meaning, your thoughts and reasoning.

Thanks

dunes? you must be central california or lower so cal???

 

[FarmerMatt]

I've been on the pro 44 side of the debate for several years. In fact, I've never ever even wheeled a dana 30 in an XJ (I swapped in a 44 as soon as I bought my first XJ). I think I was wrong. A 44 just doesn't give you enough strength where we need it. I am of the opinion now that the 44 should be skipped over. Build the 30 & once you've outgrown it than it's time for 60 stuff. A built & trussed 30 will hold up to anything a built 44 will. There's just not enough strength difference between the 2 to make it worth the work to swap IMO.

Matt

 

[David Taylor]

I've been on the pro 44 side of the debate for several years. In fact, I've never ever even wheeled a dana 30 in an XJ (I swapped in a 44 as soon as I bought my first XJ). I think I was wrong. A 44 just doesn't give you enough strength where we need it. I am of the opinion now that the 44 should be skipped over. Build the 30 & once you've outgrown it than it's time for 60 stuff. A built & trussed 30 will hold up to anything a built 44 will. There's just not enough strength difference between the 2 to make it worth the work to swap IMO.

Matt

I feel the 44 still has it's place. I think Rick would have liked to have a 44
R&P last trip.

 

[Jes]

A built & trussed 30 will hold up to anything a built 44 will. There's just not enough strength difference between the 2 to make it worth the work to swap IMO.

Matt

True, but if you actually drive your junk on the street to and from the trail the Dana44 brakes and hi steer are well worth it. Being able to stop and not having to do an alignment after every run were worth it to me.
Is it "the ultamate front axle"? No.

 

[Matt S.]

I feel the 44 still has it's place. I think Rick would have liked to have a 44
R&P last trip.

I dont agree Dave. I think when Matt says a properly trussed and built 30, that does include differential housing work. The serious downfall to the 30 is the flexy pumkin with breaks R&Ps. I think that with enough gusseting and trussing, the 30 will be just as good as the 44 strength wise. I would guess Rick broke his gears not just because the housing flex, but from the regular abuse. (3 times a month in huge rocks)

By using AZRick as an example, this proves a 30 is worth much more than a 44. He consistanly abuses that axle, and this gearset lasted 2 years IIRC. His axle is midly trussed so that helped to not bend tubes. If over those 2 years, he wheeled at lest 2 times a month, that is 48 super hard trips. You cannot honestly say that you wend 48 trips and didnt break a 44 shaft or hub. For the wieght of the 30, the price, the relative strength... up to a 35" tire, you cant beat them now-a-days.

Anyways, I still think the key is in the 609 stuff!

 

[David Taylor]

I dont agree Dave.

You cannot honestly say that you went 48 trips and didnt break a 44 shaft or hub. For the wieght of the 30, the price, the relative strength... up to a 35" tire, you cant beat them now-a-days.

Well, your right. I have broken one hub. That's it. for the whole time I have had my 44(three years). Do I have 48 trips on it ? I just might. But I know it has been on at least 48 hammer trails.
Is a 44 the axle for everybody ? No. But I would still take my 44 over a built
30 anyday. Don't worry, when your 30's R&P is blown on the trail. I'll still pull you back to camp. With a 44 you can bring spares to fix the weak link . Are you setting up gears on the trail these days ?

 

[JohnX]

dunes? you must be central california or lower so cal???

There are sevral dunes around CA. Imperial, Glamis, Dumont, Pismo, etc. Theres a lot more than that if you count the little ones here and there.

 

[Goatman]

I agree with Matt, budget and bullet proof just don't go together. The only way I see to build a budget and relatively bullet proof front axle is to find a junkyard D60 with 4.11 gears and weld the spider gears, and find a 14 bolt with 4.11's for the rear. That's the cheapest, strongest, most bang for the buck axle combo you can get.

I also think it depends on tire size. You can run just about any trail out there with 35's, and a well built D44 is nearly unbreakable with 35's, but it does need chromo shafts and axle joints and is in the low $2000 range if you build it yourself. Really, compared with what it costs to build a stout D30, and the roughly $6000 that it costs to build a good D60, that's still a lot of bang for the buck. If you go to 37's then you're pushing the D44, it will work well but you are subject to breakage occasionally if you wheel it hard. BTW, my comments are based on west coast rock crawling, and that's where Troy (who started the thread) lives.

What I don't like about breaking a D44 is when a stub shaft goes, since a chromo stub usually takes out the spindle making for a more difficult repair, and requiring us to carry spare spindles. There is a way to build a D44 with 30 spline chromo outers, which then would be very strong and normally you would just break hubs or drive slugs. It just costs more $$ to get the parts to put 30 spline Warn stubs on the D44, which makes it much less "budget".

No doubt a 609 is the best combination for strength, clearance, and weight, but it is far from being budget since you have to get a high pinion 9" center section and the D60 outers.

I'm not so much in the D30 camp, but that depends on what you do. If you rock crawl a lot, there have been plenty of guys who broke the ring and pinion. But, if you run a variety of trails and only do hardcore trails occaisonally then the D30 could last a long time. In my mind, the problem with building a stout D30 (if you're starting from scratch, and don't already have one geared and locked) is it costs close to the same as a stout D44, and the D44 is much better for close to the same money. The D44 does have a stronger ring and pinion which you won't break in a front axle, plus bigger brakes, stronger housing, and you can get high steer. No comparison in my mind if you're starting from scratch with either axle.

 

[Matt S.]

Well, your right. I have broken one hub. That's it. for the whole time I have had my 44(three years). Do I have 48 trips on it ? I just might. But I know it has been on at least 48 hammer trails.
Is a 44 the axle for everybody ? No. But I would still take my 44 over a built
30 anyday. Don't worry, when your 30's R&P is blown on the trail. I'll still pull you back to camp. With a 44 you can bring spares to fix the weak link . Are you setting up gears on the trail these days ?

I knew it! You doooo love me!:smootch:


I think its one or the other you know? 44 vrs 30 is like saying jeep vrs toyota. You cant seriously solve it.

I might set gears up on the trail. Will you carry me tools for me?

 

[Jump This]

I feel the 44 still has it's place. I think Rick would have liked to have a 44
R&P last trip.

:dunno:
Havn't broke my 44.....yet!
Oh....maybe some other Rick?

Rick

 

[hadfield4wd]

There is a way to build a D44 with 30 spline chromo outers, which then would be very strong and normally you would just break hubs or drive slugs. It just costs more $$ to get the parts to put 30 spline Warn stubs on the D44, which makes it much less "budget".

How?

 

[Mr.OverKill]

How?

Buy a Warn 30 spline hub kit that comes with new hubs, rotors, stubs, and spindles. Not sure it is worth it. 'RUMOR' has it the spindles MAY not be as strong as standard Spicer spindles but the 5 x 5.5 Warn rotor is tons stronger than a standard Ford 5 x 5.5 rotor.