Steering...high steer, assist, full hydro

[Goatman]

What size was the tie rod you bent?

It's 1.5" OD, don't know the wall thickness since it came with the rig. It doesn't matter, if it was strong enough to never bend (not possible) it would just ruin the ends. I do rock gardens continually on the type of trails we do out here, so we have no choice but to get the tie rod up as high as possible. Also, when I hit something I first give it a little gas to see if the diff will pop over it before I back up........a poor little tie rod doesn't stand a chance. The tie rod on my yellow XJ that's mounted on top of the high steer arms is full of rock rash, but at least it's .250 wall DOM and can take a decent beating, and I've bent and replaced it.

 

[Goatman]

I know the D44 dedenbear flat top kuckles use a 4th stud... might look into finding arms that are made for thoes knuckles and use a 4th stud in your arms?

http://www.dedenbear.com/TXToffroad.htm

and I know that Blue Torch Fab makes arms with 2 holes on the passenger side to do exactly what you are talking about... though a quick check on their webpage doesnt show 4 stud steering arms...

Good info. I'll call them to find out who makes arms for those knuckles.


Jon, I'll have to consider full hydro.............thinking. I'm just not familiar enough with it yet and the issues that go along with it. I also would have to consider whether going single or double ended ram.

 

[Paul S]

I'm thinking about running single bolt histeer arms on both side with the TR bolted below the histeer arms & the DL bolted above the histeer arm. The pass side TR/DL would share a 3/4" bolt. The Pitman will have a 1 ton DRE since it's got more misalignment than any other combo.
Considering how much higher the 60 arms are than a 44, the TR would probably be as high as on a 44 with the TR above the arms.
If you want a little more height & beef Partsmike has a 1/2 thicker/raised histeer arm.
Also check Spidertrax for 2 bolt arms with 5/8 studs.
I don't see the 3 bolts being a problem with full hydro, as loog as the stops are set correctly. One thing about the 3 bolts is that they're a bit further apart than some of the 4 botls 6 knuckles. You could also weld the arm to the knuckle if you're really worried about it.

Paul

 

[Lincoln]

Double ended full hydro only Richard. I wouldn't even consider single ended ram. You end up with different turns lock to lock when running a single ended ram. Exactly why my assist works find when turning right but the pump is a little slow when turning left. There is more volume to fill behind the piston vs. the shaft side.

Personally I still think the best way would be to run a double arm with the assist cylinder behind the axle. You could still do the 4th stud if you like and I think that would be a greater stregth increase than the 5/8" studs.

I'm glad Jon chimed in. I should have taken his rig for a joy ride when I had the chance. He has complained less than anyone I know driving at speed with full hydro.

Jon, what characteristics took getting used to and what handles different on yours vs. a traditional setup? Richard and I talked about hydro and I told him just to deal with someone good that understood full hydro at speed and to be prepared for a learning curve. My only worry was the feel through the wheel you loose.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/ford1.htm are some High Steer arms from Sky Manufacturing setup for two holes.

Here is a link to the Spidertrax arms and 5/8" studs: http://www.spidertrax.com/s.nl/it.A/id.1212/.f?sc=2&category=118

Here are some arms from Rockstomper: http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/steering/highsteer.htm

Heres a double tie rod end hole arm from extremegear: http://www.extremegearoffroad.com/store/product.php?productid=16138

One from Blue Torch Fab: http://shop.aholics.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=2-BTF111111

Here's a nice looking unit from Poisen Spyder Customs: http://www.4wheelonline.com/jeep/Products.aspx?CategoryId=31504&ProductId=86412

http://www.spydercustoms.com/index2.php They are powdercoated though and I've read elsewhere that powdercoating a high steer arm is a BAD idea.

I purchased my custom high steer arms from Parts Mike back when there wern't many choices in arms like there are today. I got them long enough for two holes and blank so I could put the tie rod holes exactly where I wanted them. They came without the taper on the end for the tie rod holes, so I had to "machine" that myself with a band saw and grinder. Not exactly recommended!

Jeff

 

[cracker]

The doubled up TR w/DL TREs blow ass

(I have one more of these but cannot find it).

I am over it and am getting a 2.5" double ended ram and going ful hudro on my 60. This is my inspiration......

 

[vetteboy]

That's a beautiful piece of work right there.

 

[FarmerMatt]

The doubled up TR w/DL TREs blow ass

(I have one more of these but cannot find it).

I am over it and am getting a 2.5" double ended ram and going ful hudro on my 60. This is my inspiration......

So how much $$$ is that setup going to burn? It is very pretty.

 

[cracker]

So how much $$$ is that setup going to burn? It is very pretty.

Bling Bling.............

Atually, PSC is being so kind as to swap out my complete hydro assist set up (ported 'rock' box and ram) for a full hydro set up (double ended ram and orbital valve). They both share the same pump, seperate resevoir, and cooler. Full hydro will be gratis, the rest of my set up......I don't want to know.

 

[Kaczman]

Jon, what characteristics took getting used to and what handles different on yours vs. a traditional setup? Richard and I talked about hydro and I told him just to deal with someone good that understood full hydro at speed and to be prepared for a learning curve. My only worry was the feel through the wheel you loose.

The biggest difference is the lack of play in the steering. If I turn the wheel, the tires WILL move. I think this is what some people consider to be the "twichy" feeling of full hydro, but I think it's very predictable. My system is 3.5 turns lock to lock and I wouldn't go any faster for a rig driven at speed.

I think with the right valve, the road feel will not be an issue. I can tell when the tires are wedged and back off before I loose ball joints.

So how much $$$ is that setup going to burn? It is very pretty.

My P.O.S. and Howe combo ran around 1K for everything but the hoses.

-Jon

 

[Goatman]

I'm thinking about running single bolt histeer arms on both side with the TR bolted below the histeer arms & the DL bolted above the histeer arm. The pass side TR/DL would share a 3/4" bolt. The Pitman will have a 1 ton DRE since it's got more misalignment than any other combo.
Considering how much higher the 60 arms are than a 44, the TR would probably be as high as on a 44 with the TR above the arms.
If you want a little more height & beef Partsmike has a 1/2 thicker/raised histeer arm.
Also check Spidertrax for 2 bolt arms with 5/8 studs.
I don't see the 3 bolts being a problem with full hydro, as loog as the stops are set correctly. One thing about the 3 bolts is that they're a bit further apart than some of the 4 botls 6 knuckles. You could also weld the arm to the knuckle if you're really worried about it.

Paul

I measured this morning, and the height above ground on my Tera 60 high steer arm and the D44 high steer arm under the other XJ is exactly the same......21" in my case measured from the center of the TRE/rod end to the ground, both with 37" tires. So, we would loose some clearance if the tie rod is mounted below the arm on the Tera 60 knuckles. I guess one way to counteract that would be to use the spacers to raise the arm, but I don't know how that would effect strength using ram assist. One thing on the Tera knuckle is that there is plenty of flat surface, so another hole could easily be added to the top of the knuckle, or even an L brace or gusset added to the front of the knuckle underneath the arm. I was looking at it and it would be pretty simple to tap a hole or two in the front of the knuckle, then drill another hole in the arm for a bolt and gusset the arm that way, which could be the strongest way to do it.......if we were not comfortable with the three 9/16 studs. Of course, simply welding a gusset from the bottom of the arm to the knuckle would also work. Don't know the downside of that......how often you'd have to remove the arm, could be never if it didn't break. My D44 arms are permanent high steer since I cut off the stock steering arm mount, and on the Tera knuckle you don't need to remove the arm to service the kingpins like on other 60 knuckles. Hmmm......

 

[Goatman]

Oh, also, the distance from the ball joint to the drag link/tie rod hole in the high steer arm is the same on my D44 axle and on the Tera 60 axle, both are 7". That throw bottomed out the D44 axle yokes (I had to clearance them to keep from breaking more CTM's), but there is a bunch of room between the D60 yokes. So, it looks to me that a shorter distance could be used on the Tera 60 knuckle to allow for sharper turning. There's plenty of room for the knuckle to turn more.

 

[MrShoeBoy]

I have the Dedenbear Ford Dana 44 knuckles with the 4 bolt high steer arms. Just installed them today. The arms where custom made by Scott at Rockstomper. I had trouble finding arms long enough and finally had to start calling around to find a set. I wanted a longer arm to clear the coils and also run a seperate drag link and tie rod. I bent the drag link end and also the passenger side tie rod since its the one with the hole in it just like the ones pictured. Tomorrorw I will finish the track bar and take it on a test ride and see how it runs. Theres a trail ride at DPG which is right near me coming up Dec. 2 so that will be the big shake down run for the steering. Will post up how it goes after the ride.

AARON

 

[Goatman]

I have the Dedenbear Ford Dana 44 knuckles with the 4 bolt high steer arms. Just installed them today. The arms where custom made by Scott at Rockstomper. I had trouble finding arms long enough and finally had to start calling around to find a set. I wanted a longer arm to clear the coils and also run a seperate drag link and tie rod. I bent the drag link end and also the passenger side tie rod since its the one with the hole in it just like the ones pictured. Tomorrorw I will finish the track bar and take it on a test ride and see how it runs. Theres a trail ride at DPG which is right near me coming up Dec. 2 so that will be the big shake down run for the steering. Will post up how it goes after the ride.

AARON

What do mean by "bent"? Pictured where...on the Rockstopmer sight?

Thanks,

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

What do mean by "bent"? Pictured where...on the Rockstopmer sight?

Thanks,

I think he means he bent a tie rod end like the one Avery attached a picture of. It also sounds like he bent the drag link end that attaches to the tie rod end that Avery attached a picture of. I would like to see some pictures of the bolt surfaces of the Deadenbear D44 knuckle. I would also like to see a picture of the high steer arm that Rockstomper built. Jeff

 

[Goatman]

A little more info for those who are going to use Tera 60 knuckles. The top of the knuckle is level to the ground, perfectly, I put a level on it. I also checked my D44 knuckle and the top is not level, the arms that I have on my D44 are machined to be level for the steering link mount. This means that a D44 high steer arm that has 7-10 degrees of correction won't be level on the Tera knuckle like it will be on the D44 knuckle. The Tera knuckle needs a flat arm.

Also, the hole in my current arm for the drag link is 7" from the ball joint center, but 6.5" from the place on the arm itself that is even with the center of the ball joint......near the middle of the space between the last two holes. I see that when ordering arms I need to ask how they make their measurement.

 

[David Taylor]

A little more info for those who are going to use Tera 60 knuckles. The top of the knuckle is level to the ground, perfectly, I put a level on it.

That's good to know before I order arms.

 

[Goatman]

I think he means he bent a tie rod end like the one Avery attached a picture of. It also sounds like he bent the drag link end that attaches to the tie rod end that Avery attached a picture of. I would like to see some pictures of the bolt surfaces of the Deadenbear D44 knuckle. I would also like to see a picture of the high steer arm that Rockstomper built. Jeff

Oh, that makes sense. :doh:


MrShoeBoy, do you have the measurement of where you had the holes put in your arms?

 

[MrShoeBoy]

Yes, by bent I ment the tie rod end and the drag link on the passenger side of my old over the stock knuckle steering setup.

I can get measurements of the holes on the Rockstomper arms tomorrow and also the extra hole in the Dedenbear knuckles. The arms are 3/4" thick and are flat. I wish now that I could have found a set of arms with the 7* taper in them but my local 4x4 shop has had good luck with the Rockstomper arms and highly recomended them plus the shop discount didnt hurt.

I got the new track bar mount and track bar built today and did a driveway alignment before driving it 2hrs back to school. Only weird thing I need to call Dedenbear about is that it looks like the wheels now have some negative camber to them (the tops of the tires point towards the vehicle). The tires had no camber with the stock knuckles and the only thing that has changed where the Dedenbear knuckles and verything was put together exactly the same. Anybody have ideas on why this could be? It looks to be off by a fair margin at least compared to before.

AARON

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

What 60 are you running?

Mine's a Dodge and it had the holes set up to go top-down from the factory.

Mine is a 78-79 Ford F350 d60 front. Chevy d60 fronts like my buddies 1980 came from the top down also.

Most of our trails are Rock notches in washes with some rock gardens. for notches you dont kit the tierod much, but rock gardens suck unless you have portals.