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simple cage ideas

tbburg said:
I was going to make a joke, then realized I should add a disclaimer, and a warning. Then it wasn't funny any more. Isn't the internet wonderful?
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That's it, i'm offended by whatever it was that you're referring to. Someone please ban this guy, posts like this can't be tolerated! :skull2:


:D
 
Goatman said:
... crashing into someone (a regular ole' accident) must be considered.
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This is a big part of my reasoning for not putting in a cage (even though i've flogged my xj pretty much to the point of no return - so much so that everything is going into a new shell in a month or so). It worries me every time I see a cage in a daily driver, even more when it hangs below the window openings.

As much as I think I'm going to get arguments for saying this, I'm going to say it anyway - If you are going to cage your rig, you probably shouldn't be driving it every day.

The odds are not in your favor safety wise. As far as i know harnesses are not DOT approved replacements for OEM seatbelts (I know people who've gotten tickets for wearing them on the street - I presume because there is no certification to ensure that they are indeed safely mounted), and a standard shoulder & lap belt isn't going to keep you secured well enough in a highway crash to keep you away from the bars of a full roll cage. Along with that, as "XJ Buddy" hinted at, by stiffening up the unibody of the XJ you are changing the force that is going to be applied to your body in an accident. Don't believe me? Punch the sidewalk in front of your house, then punch a piece of plywood ontop of a couple beer cans sitting on that same sidewalk and tell me which hurts more. Vehicles are designed to crush upon impact to help lessen the blow on the occupants. By installing a proper cage without the added safety additions like a full harness, you are putting yourself at a greater risk of being injured in a minor collision on the highway.

Cage your XJ, you need proper restraints.
Get proper restraints, you need something to keep from snapping your neck when some idiot pulls out in front of you or rear ends you doing 40mph.

Having a cage does not equal being safe, just safer if you happen to roll over hard. And even then if you are wheeling hard enough to flop hard and crush the unibody enough to put you in harms way, then you should be caged, and in a harness. If you wheel your XJ hard enough to need a cage and a harness, at the very least only drive it to and from the trails (or trailer it - even better) and buy a new daily driver.


Just my oppinions here, but seriously, think before you jump into something like this for your daily. Also be aware that a simple cage to keep you safe in a hard flop while crawling is much much different than what you are going to have to deal with if you hit a bump wrong and go tumbling in every direction at 70+ mph in the desert.
 
See that is my dilemma. My XJ is a second vehicle, but I do like to drive around town and to and from trails. I started the thread thinking I could put a basic hoop in and be ok. Now I know that won't work. I do like the basic 4pt Crazy jim posted. I play quite alot and my family is usually with me so safety is paramount. I also would like the added benefit of stiffening. I live in VA I travel alot but the desert is rare. Plus when I do see the desert 35mph feels like 70 to me. I am not really a balls to the wall guy. I try to take it easy and still have fun. I am like one more neck injury from a chair though.

Needless to say I have learned a great deal from you guys and seen some great ideas. Thanks.....Keep it coming.
 
Good points Grimm. That said, there are a "few" manufacturers who make DOT approved belts.... Schroth for one. I ran them in my GTI (had 3 points) and got pulled over when my son was like 5 years old. He told the cop "look, I'm wearing my seatbelt"....the cop laughed and didn't even question them. But if he had, they were legal.

http://www.schrothracing.com/
 
Corbeau makes a 3pt almost identical. Thats what I plan on using. OEM seat belts don't fit to well in my seats. I don't want to pull the back straight down to the seat mount. I would like it to leave the seat at a 90 deg angle but I have nothing to bolt it to. Which is why I started the thread.
 
Dweezel said:
That'd make it even more hell to change a heater core :hang: :roll:
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easy is overrated, and not for offroaders building prerunners! but i do pray i get to my engine/dash forward cage before my core goes out.


good info on the DOT harnesses, i had heard about the dot-approved harnesses, but it was over on DR, so who knows! got any other mfg's?
 
I'm not against a cage in a DD, I just think a lot of thought needs to go into it. I also think that a cage enhances the existing structure, so the cage can be incorporated into the existing structure to make an adequate and safe cage without excessive and intrusive tube. I know none of you have responded to my singe B hoop concept, don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings, I'm pretty secure in my opinions. :)

For my own DD, I wouldn't hesitate to use a B hoop with tube running forward along the top of the doors and down the A pillar with the tube stopping at the dash and the tube welded to the inside of the A pillar. If any of you have cut apart an XJ, the whole cowl area is pretty damn stout with a lot of structure in there. This would somewhat maintain forward and rearward crush zones and also strengthen the A and B pillars to resist collapsing in a rollover. Again, we're talking minimal cage ideas here to enhance safety in a daily driven trail vehicle. I'm just saying think about it, I've seen too many XJ cages with tubes everywhere and not tight to the body which seem more dangerous to me.

Also, when talking about crush zones, when heavy aftermarket bumpers are used front and rear, and rock rails and frame plating are added, crush zones are already compromised.
 
Goatman said:
For my own DD, I wouldn't hesitate to use a B hoop with tube running forward along the top of the doors and down the A pillar with the tube stopping at the dash and the tube welded to the inside of the A pillar.
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...,with the A bars welded to the A-pillars. Maybe with the base of the tube attached to a foot plate on the firewall below the dash? 'wouldn't be as strong as a full 6-point,... but done properly would provide the roof/A-pillar support unless the whole cowl/firewall collapsed.
Interesting concept. Several companies make front hoop kits for TJs that bolt to the cowl/dash,...similar concept.
 
tbburg said:
...,with the A bars welded to the A-pillars. Maybe with the base of the tube attached to a foot plate on the firewall below the dash? 'wouldn't be as strong as a full 6-point,... but done properly would provide the roof/A-pillar support unless the whole cowl/firewall collapsed.
Interesting concept. Several companies make front hoop kits for TJs that bolt to the cowl/dash,...similar concept.
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Going to a foot plate on the firewall would make it stronger, but once you have the dash out you might as well go to the floor, or really to the frame at the bottom of the firewall. Again, I think we're talking about simple ideas to make it safer, but not the best, and taking the dash out isn't simple for most.

Here's a pic of part of the cage in my old XJ, but I also had a partial exo cage. I welded a strip directly to the A pillar, then welded the tube to that strip. I also bent the top of the B pillar hoop back to provide plenty of head room. Now, I did this also having a partial exo, but no reason it wouldn't enhance the safety all by itself. I had a bar across the cowl on the outside, but a dash bar could be added on the inside which would help. Next time I'd tuck it up a little higher, and not bend the bar down to meet the B pillar hoop, which I did just to make it easier to weld all around.

Again, we're not talking about ultimate safety, just simple cage ideas to enhance safety. I think......

standard.jpg
 
Yea the b-pillar bend and the dead tubes are what scares me in that cage. Another important thing to consider is false sense of security with a cage. Some people may think their cage is going to save them more than it really is and push harder, therefore getting themselves in trouble quicker. The cage is just going to end up being more tubes the firefighters have to cut through with the jaws of life to get you out. Triangulation and Junctions are the big players in cage safety, of which there are neither in big bird.


Also, I'm on the "Crumple zones are overrated" bandwagon. I know for a fact people will disagree, but that's fine. If I'm going to be in an accident, I'd rather have the heavier, more rigid car. If you slam into a wall, then you're SOL... Even still, a good cage and harnesses will save you ass way better than crumple zones and a shoulder belt IMO. DJ Safety makes a good DOT approved belt, as does Schroth. If you're that concerned about it, you could also strap your normal shoulder belt over your 5 points. But I would never drive a vehicle with a cage without having 5 points on, it's just not safe.
 
I took a 70mph head on hit in the rear of my 1990 XJ and it bent it in half. Right behind the rear seat folded vertically. It didn't really crumple. My neck did though. I feel if I was in a 3pt harness mounted correctly I would have done alot better instead of cracking like a whip.
 
Having your body held still by a harness isn't going to do much to keep your neck from cracking like that whip in a collision like that.
 
Where's the flip off smileys when you need one?

:D
 
I think there are too many variables to say that a simple B pillar cage is enough or not enough. In a perfect world we would have a dedicated vehicle for each driving situation (slow speed trail/high speed/daily driver) but budget usually won't allow it. No amount of rollcage safety can guarantee your safety in every situatiuon...it's the risk you take for going out and having fun in your car.

How many Jeepspeed racers wear a D-cell or Hans device? I know I should but I haven't made it a priority.

FWIW I've rolled my Jeepspeed 2 different times. Both times a simple B pillar hoop was all I would have needed for protection since they were both just "flops" onto the side.
 
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