Is the a cheap way to get there from here?

[FarmerMatt]

I think we've pretty much found the limit on dana 44 front ends. After a weekend playing in the rocks in JV where the smallest tire present was a 37 it was pretty evident that it's time to upgrade. It seems that we've been able to make the innerds hold up pretty well with aftermarket u joints & alloy axles, but after blowing up 4 hubs, one drive flange, & distorting one hub / rotor assembly, many of us are looking at options for upgrades. Is there a cheap (reletively) way to get to 60 strength outers? Lets talk 60's, hybrid axles, & what they cost...

 

[Captain Ron]

So what yer sayin is that this was a waste of time and money.

Thanks.

I'll be sure to watch this installment of the optimum triangle.

--ron

 

[FarmerMatt]

Do you still have your reciepts?

 

[STEELFISH]

Or I may be interesed...

 

[Matt S.]

Matt, fogive my near redundancy and/or stupidity. You and I have talked in near great detail about some of my hairbrained ideas, but I am going to bring a few up for discussion.

Though I have ZERO experience building my own (extreme) stuff and wheeling it, take it for what it is worth (nothing).

I want to through out some options, that i will look for the research later on.
1. Stuff other than Dana is strong and usable.
2. Toyota (ex: FJ80 stuff is freaking beefy)
3. hummer9"s are strong (I hear and read)
4. Also full on custom. (skilled people make their own knuckles that are comp strong)

I know you guys, all of you take wieght into consideration. None of you are will put a 60 in the front. So why spend the cash on the (stock) outer stuff. You will break that too. If you are going with dana stuff, you should save it and bit the bullit for Crane/Dedenbear outers.

The FJ80 stuff is interesting to me. 60 like strength with half the wieght. Yes its birfs, but cut the ends off and go with 60 outers or just get Bobby Longs 300M birfs (which I dont think any reported breakages have happened)

Hummer9"s are cool. But kinda odd ball. Half of you already have the 9" front, but could easily go to the hummer portals (3" gain). They dont have hubs, so a unibearing could be a good thing, which allows for the bolt patters you have. (I could be wrong about the hubs, but I think you can convert them.)

You could go full on custom and have stuff that no one else has and be SOL when you break.


I would be willing to bet that strong and cheap dont go in the same sentence. For front ends anyways.


Matt :dunce:

 

[Goatman]

Scrappy, you're points are useless without cost discussions. If money is no object the choices are easy.

I don't agree that the stock D60 outers won't hold up. Sure, guys are breaking D60 knuckles, but they're usually Ford knuckles with high steer arms and hydro steering with way big tires. The GM and Dodge knuckles are holding up fine as far as I've seen. Really, even the Ford knuckles are fine except under extreme circumstances. Nothing wrong with the aftermarket heavy duty stuff, but we shouldn't automatically think that it's needed. It's more a problem of finding used D60 parts, so having to buy the aftermarket stuff.

For me, I'd like a D44 center section with a 35 spline ARB to run 60 inners. I need to find a GM D60 which is cheaper than a Ford HP60, and then all I'd use from the 60 is the C's, knuckles, and spindles. Kind of a waste, trashing a front D60 just for 3 parts. Buying new knuckles, C's and spindles, and hardware, looks to be around $1200-1300. If a guy can get lucky and find a D60 for $500 or less, fine, but otherwise by the time you get the rebuild parts for the old stuff you're not that far away from the cost of the new stuff.

Another issue is lug pattern and brake size. I already have good beadlock rims, and my rear axle is 5 on 5.5, so I need to get 5 on 5.5 D60 hubs. I also have alloy 15" rims, which means I have to go with 1/2 ton brakes because they won't fit over the D60 brakes. The cheapest kit to go 1/2 ton brakes and 5 on 5.5 is $800, but that's still cheaper than new rims and tires.

I can get a HP44 center section for $100. That means I can build a hybrid 44/60 with ARB, 35 spline inner/outer shafts, high steer, new C's and knuckles, and stock axle shafts and u-joints for around $4600.

Good axle, but not cheap.

 

[FarmerMatt]

I'm so close to just tearing out the front end of my wife Excursion... Think she'll notice?

Matt,
Everything on the 44's seem to be holding fine except the outers. It would be cool if someone came out with an adapter spindle to adapt 60 hubs onto the 44, but my fear is that this is just buying time with stubs & joints. 60 outers should hold what out 4.0's are putting to them without too much sweat, but getting there under 5K seems to be a problem. Going true custom / exotic will only increase the $$$ & make for interesting trail repairs. I could adapt 60 knuckles on my front end, but I would still have to upgrade the locker to 35spline & get custom shafts. If I'm going to do that than I might as well start with a 9" housing, but than I would have to go true high 9" in order to get down to my 5:38 r&p's. The $$$ total just continues to snow ball from there...

Matt

 

[Lincoln]

One other thing I forgot. I discussed this with a guy building housings including a few 44/60's. He said the main problem currently is getting the seal in place. No one had found a seal that would work in the 44 hole and accept a 1.5" shaft. I haven't spent the time yet (actually any), but measuring a stock 44 seal there appears to me there should be some that exist. They might not have the ramp like a stock seal but I don't see that much of an issue.

If one can't be found large enough it requires one of two things:
1. Pull the tubes and machine it larger for the seals.
2. Find someone with equipment big enough to fit the seals with the tubes in place. The long side would be a PITA.

As far as the lowest cost approach would be to use the stock 60 hubs and turn them down to fit the 5x5.5 or 6x5.5 pattern. Bigwoody posted some pics and it requires the the size to be trimed about 1/2 way down. Every aftermaket kit I've see was the same thing they just looked new. Call Parts Mike and get a set of his caliper brackets that use 1/2 ton chevy stuff. I believe they were $40 or $60 each. I believe you can use a 44 Ford or Chevy rotor to top it off. Parts Mike knows those parts also. It won't cost anywhere near the $800 mentioned in the other thread unless you don't already have the hubs. You should be able to get a machine shop to whittle them down and redrill for around $60 a hub.

If your already running a 16" or larger wheel the above is not needed except for maybe the trimming on the hub for the wheel center. The stock brakes should clear.

The only part I would worry about is the inner C's. A couple of local guys were bending the lower part of the inners while beating on them. The ended up switching to aftermarkets to stop the problem. With how you guys are driving I think that will be the weak point.

Even if your running coil overs in the front it is very tight to get a 44/60 narrow. Based on the measurements I've been collecting I think it is possible to run standard coils by taking about 1" off the back side of the inner C (They are around 2" thick to begin with) and then running the coil mount around 2" above the top of the tube. This allows the coil to be pushed in some. On my waggy axle 44 they are pushed out about 3/4" from verticle so it would just bring them inline.

I like the Ford housing idea for a few reasons:
1. True Hi-9 - I don't see the pricing as being as back since the 44 locker, gears, and bearings are going to be pushing a grand anyway.
2. The seal issue has already been adressed.
3. Lighter housing but will need to be trussed. I really don't see that as an issue since there are already many truss's build that would go over the front of the housing and could be cut to fit a front app.
4. A little more ground clearance.

As far as the hubs blowing I've been thinking. Richard and I had talked before about the splines being tweaked after breaking a lockout. His looked good but Crash's comment made me wonder some more. I should be able to check the Chevy stuff this weekend but I wonder if the the hub is actually swelling and putting undo stress on the lockout/flange. I also wonder if that is why many with the Warn 30 spline kits aren't having as many issues. First they get the larger diameter stubs and then the hub is a custom piece. If that hub is thicker or better material it would be harder to swell and I would think the hub and flanges would hold better. I know my hybrid is a off for at least a year, but I think I'll be buying some tube and pressing it on over the hub as a test.

 

[Lincoln]

Just for a good argument. Some of the prices I just pulled out of the air and some I looked up.

 

[cracker]

I also wonder if that is why many with the Warn 30 spline kits aren't having as many issues. First they get the larger diameter stubs and then the hub is a custom piece. If that hub is thicker or better material it would be harder to swell and I would think the hub and flanges would hold better.

We just need Paul and Dave to JV test them

 

[Goatman]

Just for a good argument. Some of the prices I just pulled out of the air and some I looked up.

You gotta add gear setup costs for most of us, which would be another $200 minimum with the ARB. Also, about $300 for high steer arms. I think your prices are on the low side for most of that stuff, and in CA at least we have sales tax, and there will be some shippping.

Some money could be saved by not using CTM's or 4130 axles. A good question is what tire size can stock 35 spline axles and u-joints handle? I'm sure 37's are safe, and very likely 38's and 39's. When you get to 40's who knows?

 

[Lincoln]

You gotta add gear setup costs for most of us, which would be another $200 minimum with the ARB. Also, about $300 for high steer arms. I think your prices are on the low side for most of that stuff, and in CA at least we have sales tax, and there will be some shippping.

Some money could be saved by not using CTM's or 4130 axles. A good question is what tire size can stock 35 spline axles and u-joints handle? I'm sure 37's are safe, and very likely 38's and 39's. When you get to 40's who knows?

Also I forgot the hubs/flanges. I was thinking about the arms and didn't get them on the list.

I think 40's would depend on the weight of the rig. It's probably pushing it some. That is why I would just buy the import shafts. Your not spending much more than stock stuff and they are much stronger and if you are going to run the stock shafts it makes CTM's pointless.

Bobby Long's 60 joints are only $165/ea and I can easily see them holding up to 40's.

Several places are making the arms for around $270 for the pair.

I tried to shoot high on most of the prices. Just trying to get a base line. I close to doubled what I thought machine work would cost just because that's usually pretty close.

 

[Lincoln]

Another think I keep forgetting is what I figured the narrowest width that looked possible.

Even with cutting off the back of the knuckle and recessing the coil bucket into the bridge it looks like 63" MAY happen. It would be really tight though. Even with the 9" housing it's going to be hard to get anything more narrow than that.

I see your future on widened full widths. Now that would be cool.

 

[Lincoln]

Just because everyone thinks the seal is an issue. I found this candidate after 5 minutes of searching. It would take more measurments and checking to make sure it would work but there are bunches in this size range. I'll let you boys figure it out.

 

[Mr.OverKill]

So what yer sayin is that this was a waste of time and money.

Thanks.

I'll be sure to watch this installment of the optimum triangle.

--ron

hay ron, if you are feeling generous, :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: , i know a guy on a budget:wave1: i know for a fact that you wouldnt need to ship any of the stuff," i ", i mean" he "would be glad to come and get rid of that junk for you, new grease and all, he has some gloves for that and if you keep them in the new wrapers, wont even need the gloves:laugh3:

on a side note to hit the thread topic, the F250 or F350 front axle is a D50 ( 44 center and 60 outers ) if i had the money and the time i would be jumping on one of those with a true hi 9 in the rear.

but what do i know, its just my .02

 

[BIGWOODY]

why hybrid? They just seem to cost way too much $$$ when i looked into it. I went with an HP60 from a ford, converted to 5 lug, added dedenbears,chromo inner and outters with 35 spline outters. problem solved. Haved broken anything since upgrading to all this and have been running 39" krawlers. The price was high , around 5k by the time the dust cleared. I like it being full width and the only reason I converted it to 5 lug was to match my 9" rear. I went the "throwing all kinds of $$$ at a 44" route to start. But quickly realized with 38 SX's it wouldn't stay together. I had more problems than just outters, I ripped all the teeth off a side gear in the ARB and tore the knuckle off the axle a few times by breaking ball joints. I will also say stock 30 spline 60 outters are no better than chromo 44 outters. If you're going to get a 60 spent the extra cash on 35 spline.

 

[seanR]

OH Sure!
I just get caught up, then you ass hats move up!
Boy my wife will be mad at you!
She is still hot under the collar about the 44s!
$$$$

 

[Goatman]

Another think I keep forgetting is what I figured the narrowest width that looked possible.

Even with cutting off the back of the knuckle and recessing the coil bucket into the bridge it looks like 63" MAY happen. It would be really tight though. Even with the 9" housing it's going to be hard to get anything more narrow than that.

I see your future on widened full widths. Now that would be cool.

Coil buckets? I don't need no stinkin' coil buckets! That's what those Racerunners I have sitting in the garage are for.

Full widths out here are a good question. Sometimes they're OK, sometimes they get in the way. We have plenty of tight places here.

 

[Lincoln]

Full widths out here are a good question. Sometimes they're OK, sometimes they get in the way. We have plenty of tight places here.

I was being sarcastic (widened fullwidths). Don't you even think about that or I will be forced to make fun of you.

 

[Lincoln]

on a side note to hit the thread topic, the F250 or F350 front axle is a D50 ( 44 center and 60 outers ) if i had the money and the time i would be jumping on one of those with a true hi 9 in the rear.

Here is the problem. Those 50's still run 30 spline inners and you can't buy custom shafts so your stuck with spicer stuff which is much weaker than the 4130's or 4340's these guys are running. I have heard you can put the 44 diff in the 50 housing with the 50 gears so 35 spline may be an option. Also stock they are 30 stubs and require the unit bearing to be bored to handle the 35 spline stuff.

I feel those outters are a good setup for me. They are more narrow than a king pin 60 setup and a shorter hub length. I'm still leaning towards finding a bent one and grafting the outters to a 44 or 9".