98xj 5.3 swap (the poverty method).

[blistovmhz]

Hey all.
Lots of SBC 5.3 swaps out there (none in Canada it seems), but most claim to expect to spend a minimum of $5000 to do it wrong, and $10000 to do it well. I never buy other peoples numbers. Anywho, I figure I may as well document it. If I fail, it'll be a good lesson to someone else, and if it works out, it's a bit of a slap in the face to guys who "claim" to spend $20k to get it done.
I'd call my fabrications skills "barely adequate", but I researched the hell out of this and I'm pretty confident it'll go mostly smooth.

My 98 XJ has 6.5" up, long arm, 1 tonne OTK/OTA cross over steering, WJ knuckles, Akebono front brakes, KJ rear brakes on a D44. Both axles lunchboxed at 4.56. Uni-frame stiffeners and bumpers should help with torsion from the new motor. Rear swing-out bumper goes 28" into the frame rail. The rear cross member was reinforced with 1/8" plate, and the rails were also plated in from the CM to where the rail starts dropping down. I'll get the bit between my plating and the stiffeners burned in while the fuel tank is out for the pump upgrade. Front end still needs plating, which I'll probably do after the swap is complete, unless I have to notch the frame for some reason.

The plan:

Engine: - $650: 5.3L (non flex) from a 2005 S1500. Came complete with transmission, accessories and ECU.
Transmission: 4l60e that I think is from the same truck.
Transfer case - $75: hybrid np231

• np241c - $15: 27 spline, long shaft, wide bearing (I beleive it came out of a late 90's Sierra S1500). They didn't know how to charge me for this, so they called it a flange adapter or something.
• np231c - $75: Most of the stronger internals, and probably the shift lever for a direct linkage (linkage will be reversed (pointed up) and connected to a modified floor shifter with some rod ends) - Donor was an early 90's S10. - This cost me $75 at the wrecker during their 50% off sale.
• np231j - $0: case, output, and SYE (from my XJ). Will retain the speedo gear just in case.

Transmission>T-case adapter - $350: Advance Adapters 50-043X : )1997 to current GM 4L60E/4L65E 4wd to theJeep NP231 transfer case,adapter kit.) - I had them remove the input gear from the kit (and give me $200 off the price) because I'm PRETTY confident their gear is just an NP241c long input, which I already have with my 6 pinion planetary.
Motor mounts - $220: Novak
Headers - $327: Novak/Sanderson
Radiator - $650: GRI-CU-28182-TS (Radiator and Fan, Aluminum, Crossflow, 2-Row, 22 in. Width, 19.0 in. Height, 5.313 Thickness, Single Fan) - Should fit between the lower frame CM and the stock rad support, with modification. Good to around 400HP.
Auto shifter: No idea yet. Probably a stock XJ floor shifter if I can find one.
Fuel delivery - $150: Used 255lph Walbro in tank pump (from my buddies Mustang), and 25' of 3/8 nylon fuel hose, with the cheap press fit Dorman connectors. Running a C5 regulator/filter.

I'll post links/part numbers for everything I use when I've finalised everything and am sure it's going to work.


Explanation on parts:
Motor/trans/ecu/accessories were $650. The guys seemed legit, but if not I'm not super worried. I'll spend $650 to know my Jeep is ready to drop in another SBC. The motor turned over by hand with the spark plugs removed. Heads look to be in good condition and fairly clean. Block has a lot of external rust but the little bit I can see inside without tearing it apart looks good. The guy said something about the trans controller not being correct or something, but I didn't really ask him to elaborate. I'm guessing someone bolted the wrong one on. Cheap to pull from the wrecker anyway. Hell, a whole new trans there is only $80.
I didn't want to go for an automatic, but adapting a 5.3 (never shipped with manual) is WAY more work. I could've used my AX15, but I'd have to find a flywheel, and that's a whole other can of worms as the 4.8 and 6.0's had the crank output slightly further in or out from the block (I don't remember which). In the end, I'm happy to just stick an auto on for now and if I hate it, I'll spend the time later for a manual.
I'm going to try the hybrid NP231/241c/j mainly because once done, it SHOULD be a fairly stout case and has massive aftermarket support. I was going to just use a 241c but couldn't find an SYE, or trans/case adapter that I'd be able to have at my door in less than 6 months. **** that. If I break a part, I don't wanna be out for 6 months to a year waiting on JBconversions. The hybrid 231 should be slightly stronger than a 231c (already stronger than the 231j) because of the 27spline, six pinion planetary from the 241c.
I waffled on the motor mounts and headers for a long time before ordering from Novak. I don't like that they design their products to NOT work with anything else. Ultimately though, I've never seen a 5.3 in an XJ and everyone talks about how little clearance there is between the block and the frame. Now that I have the mounts and headers and my Jeep engine pulled, I realize I could have easily fabbed up some mounts myself in an hour or so that would work with the Novak headers, or a combination of two different sanderson headers. Next swap probably won't be using Novak.
Radiator. *sigh*. The single most expensive part of this swap. I've had cooling issues for too many years and didn't want to **** around. I figure a 400hp rad should pretty much guarantee that cooling won't be the roadblock here. There is 22.125 inches from the passenger frame rail to my Dakota steering box. This cooler is supposed to be 22". I'm crossing my fingers. There is exactly 19" from the lower part of the CM to the bottom of the rad support. The CM tapers up at the frame rail, so I'll have to do some cutting to get it all in, but I think it's doable.
Shifter: Really no idea. I looked at all the conversion kits and hated them. I'm not a "stock look" weenie by any means, but the stock XJ auto shifter is probably the best option. I may change my mind when I can't find one .
The Transmission to T-case adapter was for me, the 800lbs gorilla. There are heaps of ways to stick a driveline together, but ultimately it was the GM VSS that killed me. The ECU needs that 40t reluctor signal to figure out shift points on the trans. I could do some magic with the stock Chysler Speedo, but I've heard this rarely works well and you end up with buggy shift points or poor fuel economy. I wanted a GM VSS either in the t-case or on the transmission. Ultimately I could've waited 8-2000 months for JBconversions np231/241 SYE with GM compatible VSS, but I don't wanna wait. Besides which, what happens if I want to change out the case later? New VSS is what. Advance are the only guys I could find that have a trans/case adapter that puts the VSS reluctor on the transmission output (novak makes you swap your 27spl trans output for a 23spl output with a VSS reluctor, so it'll mate up to the NP231j. This is retarded. AA retains the stock 27spl output so you just need to bolt the 40t reluctor to the stock output, stick their trans/case adapter on, swap case inputs to a 27spline (way easier than swapping out a trans output), and bolt together).


Status:

I have the engine (complete except for tensioner, belt, spark plugs, intake tube/filter), transmission, 3 transfer cases and a 241c input gear (np231j 95+, np231j 94-, np231c 94-, np241 input/planetary 2000+ I think). Motor mounts and headers are installed on the motor.
Advance ****ed me and told me everything in my trans/case kit was in stock when I ordered and that it'd be here by ... two days ago. Now it won't be shipping for another week because apparently they forgot that they didn't have any of the parts in stock, and that the adapter still needed to be manufactured. ****arz. Advance was actually really decent about helping me figure out everything I needed to know about my driveline conversion. Maybe this stock issue was just an oversight and not just a sales thing.

All in all, I'm about $1950 into the swap and have most of the expensive stuff already on my bench. Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic. I still need lots of little stuff, but I really don't see this running over $5000 unless the motor is destroyed. Even then, that'd put me out less than a grand and I'd still probably be under the $5k mark.

 

[blistovmhz]

Got the 4.0L driveline pulled last night.
Was raining and I wasn't feeling well, and the garage is a disaster, and my stupid RC long arm CM is bolted to the arms instead of the frame rails, so it took a good 5 hours to get it pulled.

Couldn't fit the Jeep fully in the garage, so it sat half in the door. Pulled the grill, radiator, disconnected fuel/AC (air), power steering, and the engine harness. Found out I couldn't get the transmission connector (what's it even do?) with the trans still bolted up, so had to drop the CM to drop the trans to get the last connector on the harness out.
Dropped the CM, axle shifted forward, got the connector off, and now it's time to pull the Jeep further into the garage so it'll reach the hoist. Getting the CM back up is a challenge when the axle is disconnected. With the axle connected, it's a whore. The bolt holes are very tight tolerance and the axle wants to pull forward. My buddy Mouse came over and had the brilliant idea to wratchet strap the front axle back to the rear axle. This gave us precision control to get the CM mated back up, so we could roll the Jeep into the garage.
Once in the garage, I pulled all the vacuum hoses, throttle cable, air box, cruise control, and all the non-harness wiring (starter, alternator, and 2 grounds. I don't know why everyone complains about the Jeep harness. It's easily as well contained as the GM).
The driveline came out in one piece but took three guys to maneuver out, mainly because the garage ceiling got in the way and the hoist kept trying to twist to the driver side and flip over (shitty Princess Auto hoist). But, the motor came out in one piece and is now sitting on the floor.

The 5.3/4l60e are bolted together, headers are loosely installed (i'm going to paint them before final assembly).

Today I'll hopefully get the 5.3 starter bolted on (just got it last night), clean up the engine bay, maybe remove any unnecessary remaining wires, install the Novak motor mounts to the frame, and maybe even get a test fit.

I think for the wiring, I've got so much going on due to other mods that I may just remove everything. As far as I know from reading other threads, most of the PDC wiring get's retained. It's all either ignition, lights, HVAC, fuel, and AC. I'll probably just pull out all the stuff I've modified and take this as an opportunity to clean it up.

I've still got no idea what I'm doing for gauges and am looking for input. I'm not sure what gauges connect to the old ECU and what go directly to sensors. I'm guessing I'll probably just wire up the OBDii port and stick a tablet in my dash for now, but I'd like to have the oil pressure, battery, water temp, and trans temp visible as well.


Here's the engine bay. Looks so sad yet so happy.

And my poor old, tired 4.0L that just wouldn't quit.

 

[blistovmhz]

Oh, I did have a question about my transfer case that someone might know the answer to.
As I said, I've got
np231j with SYE from my 98xj
np231j from a 94xj
np231c from an early 90's S10
np241c input shaft (long shaft, wide bearing) from (presumably) an early 2000 S1500.

Everyone seems to agree that the gear cut changed in 94/95 for most of the New Process cases, but that if you stick with 94 down, it'll all work together, and likewise for 95 up.

I'm not positive where the 241c input shaft/gears came from. They were sitting under a 2004 S1500, but not mated to it. Entirely possible it could be an early model gear.

That said, I should have enough cases to make this work either way in terms of gear cut. If the 241c cut is the early style, I'll just use the 231c internals in the late model 231j case, and retain my SYE.
If the 241c is a later cut, I'll just stick it in the late model 231j case with the late model 231j internals.

The big question here though is the wide bearing. IIRC, the early 231 used a wide bearing and the late model used a narrow bearing. I've heard that the bearing doesn't matter and that it'll fit either case, but I've never actually tried to do this before. Does anyone happen to know which combination (if any) will work?

 

[jbsjunk]

Go with the S-10 231. The Jeep 231 SYE kit bolts on the same. I have one in my small block XJ. Not a problem. It should bolt on too.

 

[blistovmhz]

Omg. I just finished installing the 241 input and 231c internals into the 231j case. Are you saying there's a factory adapter to bolt the 231c to the 4l60e?

 

[jbsjunk]

Find an S-10 adapter from a 4l60 to the electronic t-case. If memory serves, it would bolt up the same as the 231.

 

[blistovmhz]

Can anyone else verify this? I could just put the 231c case back together and cancel my aa order (instead of waiting 2-3 weeks)

 

[foxwar71]

Less words, more pictures!!!!

 

[blistovmhz]

Oh. Duh. The np231c has the vss on the tail cone. That tail cone isn't sye. Can't find an sye for the 231c. Thus, putting the aa kit with the vss in the transmission.
I would have done the 231c in a heartbeat if JB conversions wasn't back ordered a year in their sye.

The hybrid case is done, but I'm not sure if its shifting right. If I pull on the output shaft, I get 2L. Wtf did I do?

 

[blistovmhz]

I can't tell if I did something wrong with the t-case. it's real hard to shift, and the rear output seems to have some movement until I put on the tail housing (sye).
Is it normal to shift like a bitch until it's got oil in it?

 

[blistovmhz]

P.S. The above picture is with the NP241c long shaft, wide bearing.
I took the wide bearing from the 231c case (as it's an early model). A bunch of people were insisting that the wide bearing was only found in early model np cases, but I verified that 2000+ NP241 had both the correct cut for a late model 231j, as well as wide bearing (which everyone insists it never came with).
I popped the early model 231c input into my J case with the J sun gear just to hear the difference. The early 231c cut looked identical to my late 231j, but man did it make awful noise in the late model case. The 241c sounded exactly the same as the original gear/planetary.
My stick out is 2.5" which is precisely what we're hoping for. Everything looks really good on the t-case front, other than it's not shifting smooth and is real hard to get into neutral, but I'm pretty confident that's just lack of oil.
Just buttoned it all up and will fill it up tomorrow. Hopefully also get some wiring done tomorrow, as well as a test fit of the motor/trans, and try to track down a shifter. Any recommendations on a shifter? I don't think I'm goona find a 98+ Xj for parts any time soon (locally).

 

[jbsjunk]

I put a Jeep SYE kit in my S-10 231. Been driving it for 3 years with zero problems. Same case, back half. You will need the Jeep speedo assembly.

 

[blistovmhz]

[

Anyone know if this is the right alt for this engine? Was on the donor motor, but I can't find that connector on any 2000+ chev. Harness I have is three wire, this connector is two. Couldn't find any 2 wire connectors o. Any chev trucks.

 

[blistovmhz]

I think I've got the alternator figured out. GM made several changes to their charging system between 99 and current. The plugs changed several times, GBCM changed a bunch of times, and I can't find any solid data one what changed and when.
I think I found the 2 pin connector on Amazon. We'll see when it shows up.

Next up is the shifter. I really hate most of the after market shifters. Ratchet shifters are a terrible idea for off road, and I don't want something where someone will accuse me of trying to "do art" to my truck. I just want a normal goddamn shifter.
If I can find a stock 98+ XJ shifter, I'll go that route. In the mean time, I found a Corvette C5 shifter and cable (originally mated to a 4l60e anyhow) for $140. I think I can make this work.
What'd ya'll think?

At this point, I'm mostly just waiting. Did some real basic checks on the motor today, made sure it turns over smoothly and makes some compression. Radiator/shroud/fan will be here in a few days, but still waiting for the AA kit to ship (thursday).
Got the motor mounts installed and did a little bit of cleaning up in the bay.
Slow day.

 

[yossarian19]

I'm wondering if the work & expense of installing that C5 shifter is easier or cheaper than switching to a column shift & linkage. Probably pretty even money.

 

[blistovmhz]

How would one get a column shift into an xj, while doing less work than sticking that c5 shifter in?

 

[Hoooper]

why not just use a stock shifter? Stock 96 shift and cable works fine in mine. A couple other guys have done the same thing too

 

[yossarian19]

How would one get a column shift into an xj, while doing less work than sticking that c5 shifter in?

Heck if I know. I've never worked with plastic enough to know how to put that shifter in. Solder & nuts & bolts, I'm comfortable with.

 

[blistovmhz]

why not just use a stock shifter? Stock 96 shift and cable works fine in mine. A couple other guys have done the same thing too

If I had one, I'd use it. As it stands though, our only wrecker is shutting down all their locations this month and they've got nothing for Jeeps. There is a Jeep wrecker but he charges as much for used parts as I can buy new from anywhere in the US. I figure if I'm spending >$100 on a shifter anyway, why not go with something that has the correct 6 position detent and shift indicator already? Cost will be roughly the same, but more work to modify an XJ shifter.
My Jeep is sorta mad max. I really don't care if stuff looks like it belongs. Chrysler designed Jeep is ugly as hell and my interior looks like a neon. Definitely no extra points for retaining stock look in a 98+.
When I'm done with this swap, I'll probably end up picking up another 90-96 xj to drop all my stuff into. I'll worry a tad more about cosmetics then.

What do the guys in buggies use for shifters anyhow?

 

[blistovmhz]

Everyone loves pictures of filthy Jeep.
Yesterday was a slow day:
* Hit the wrecker for a trans bell housing block off plate (goes below the starter), and grabbed all the bolts I could find sitting under all the mostly stripped GM trucks (wrecker is shutting down so it's slim pickin')
* Buttoned up the hybrid t-case, added oil, and tested. Shifting is now smooth. For anyone doing a case build, remember that. It won't shift properly without oil. Just assume you did it right and fill with oil to test.
* Installed some spark plugs.
* Installed the starter and block off plate, put oil in the motor and gave it a few crank tests. Turns over as well as I'd expect. I'm a little concerned that it may be slower than it should be. For all I know this motor came out of a lake. If I'm to trust the previous owner, he sat in the rolled truck and started it up and it ran perfect when he bought it.
* Installed the motor mounts.
* Removed the AC pump. There's no way it'll fit without notching the frame, or relocating it. I'll worry about that later. Probably notch the frame, but I just want this thing running first.
* Ordered (hopefully) the correct alternator connector ($12 from Amazon) - ACDelco PT2787
* Ordered the 3/8 Nylon fuel hose.

My other Amazon order should be in today. It'll have

Goodyear 4060930 Gatorback Poly-V Belts
$25.43

2 of Dorman 800-084 Fuel Line Quick Connector for 5/16 In. Steel to 3/8 In. Nylon Tubing, Pack of 2
$6.41

Russell 640940 -6 AN Male to 3/8" SAE Quick-Disconnect Male Push-On EFI Fitting
$11.11

ACDelco 38158 Professional Automatic Belt Tensioner and Pulley Assembly
$30.49

4 of Vibrant 1194A Standard Oxygen Sensor Bung
$6.99

Wix 33737 Complete In-Line Fuel Filter, Pack of 1
$32.19

5 of Dorman 800-082 Fuel Line Fitting
$5.31

And finally the pictures.

Extra 2-3" lift with no drive train.

Novak mounts installed. Only broke off one unibody bolt!
The Novak mounts use several of the factory frame holes/nuts/bolts, including several that were for some reason never used from the factory. I wonder if anyone knows why there are extra mount locations?
Novak mount unfortunately locates one bolt hole directly under/inside the main mount support on the rear. It's a massive pain to get at. Bolt has to be installed into the mount before the mount get's located, then has to be tightened at least 3/4 the way in by hand so you can get a 15mm wrench in there. Then when you're tightening up the rest of the bolts, you have to do them all a few turns at a time each so you don't lose the very small clearance on that one bolt.
Also, perhaps my frame is a bit twisted or something, but it took some serious precision Jeep hammer/prybar work to get the mount to sit in the right location to get all the bolts in. Had to dremel out one mount hole. I really think I could've done a better job on the mounts. They're beefy, and they certainly add some meat to the light unibody, but I think they spent too much time working out a solution that didn't require welding, which if you're tackling this project, you're going to be welding SOMETHING anyway.

Random shots of the hybrid t-case build.

Note the (what looks like a) brass syncro in the 231c case

My not so pretty 5.3L with the Novak/Sanderson headers, Novak mounts, transmission, and 241c input shaft installed.

And my radiator that should be here Thursday (the most expensive part of this project):
Griffin CU-28182-TS

Radiator Style:Crossflow
Radiator Material:Aluminum
Radiator Finish:Natural
Overall Width (in):22.000 in.
Overall Height (in):19.000 in.
Overall Thickness (in):5.313 in.
Core Width (in):17.000 in.
Core Height (in):19.000 in.
Core Thickness (in):2.250 in.
Row Quantity:2
Transmission Cooler:Yes
Inlet Location:Upper passenger side
Inlet Size:1 1/2 in.
Outlet Location:Lower passenger side
Outlet Size:1 3/4 in.
Tube Size:1 in.
Fan Quantity:Single
Fan Diameter (in):16.000 in.
Maximum Fan CFM:1,298 cfm
Shroud Material:Aluminum

A few notes on the t-case decision.
But first, the problems.

* NP231j case bolt pattern does not quite match any GM factory 4l60e adapter. A clocking ring could fix this, but would extend your driveline length at least 2 inches.
* NP231j input gear is not long enough without a clocking ring, and wouldn't even mate up to the 4l60e output shaft with a clocking ring.
* NP231j input gear is only 21 or 23 spline (early/late). 4l60e output is 27 spline.
* NP231j does not have a GM compatible VSS (ECU needs this to provide accurate shift points to the fully electronically controlled transmission. If you were using a full manual valvebody, or at least something that only bases it's shift points on engine RPM/load/throttle position, the VSS wouldn't be required.

So to solve the first issue (bolt pattern), you could stick a 231c/241c case on. There are factory adapters that will work, the input shaft presumably would be long enough, and either case would come with the correct spline count as well as a GM VSS in the tail housing. This would seem to be the obvious answer, and for a stock height Jeep, it might be. Problem is that I've got 6.5" lift and require an SYE. "Just buy a 231/241c SYE" you say? Of course, except that the only guys who make them are JBconversions, and after a month of trying to call them every day, 10x a day, I still haven't gotten ahold of them. Lots of other complaints of this sort on the forums. Even if you got the C SYE, what happens when you break something and need replacement parts? There are builds that have been held up for YEARS because of the lack of C SYE's.
Why not just stick the 231j SYE (they're easy to find) on the C case? That'd actually work, but the SYE of course requires the use of a main shaft, and the J main shaft does not have a GM 40 tooth reluctor, so you're still ****ed for a VSS.

So in summary, if you don't plan to lift, you could probably save yourself a tonne of money and heartache by just installing a C case using the factory adapter, and you're ready to hit the road. If you need SYE, and your transmission isn't electronically controlled, you can probably throw a J case SYE into a C case, and use the stock Jeep Speedo unit. If however, you need SYE and have an electronically controlled transmission (ala 4l60e), your only option is to adapt a case to bolt to your trans, fit the splines correctly, and give you VSS. AA's kit that I'm waiting for now, locates a GM VSS in the trans/case adapter, and sticks a 40tooth reluctor right on the tranmission output shaft. The only downside to this is that when you're in 4L, your speedo will read wrong.

On the VSS and 4L:
On GenIII+ ECU's, there is an input to tell it when you're in 4L. These were used from factory because the factory transfer case put the VSS on the case output. When you stick it into 4L, your ECU gets a signal and multiplies the VSS signal by your gear ratio. THis solves both your speedo issue as well as keeps your shift points proper. When you put the VSS on the trans output however, I'm not sure what to do about the signal when in 4L. I could provide the 4L signal and see if the ECU can DIVIDE the signal by my gear ratio when in 4L, or perhaps send the 4L signal to the ECU when in high, but program it with the opposite gear ratio. This way when I switch to 4L on the case, I'd actually STOP sending the 4L signal to the ECU, and the ECU would correctly multiply the VSS by the correct ratio. This is all theory at this point, but I'll get it figured out.
Either way, without the 4L switch, and the VSS on the transmission output, the trans will shift correctly. All I loose is the correct speedo signal to the dash (assuming I build a GM cluster). I'm still waiting for word from Brendan from LT1swap.com to get back to me about whether or not this will work (he's programming my ECU for me now).

*someone please correct me if I'm mistaken anywhere here*.