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Rear End Frustration Thread: Chasing the Thump and Bang Gremlins

The Chrysler 8.25 doesn't use shims for the carrier bearings! There are threaded adjusters in the housing on either side of the carrier that are accessed from the ends of the housing with a long tool which you can fabricate from a length of pipe welded to a nut. Can't recall size of nut- just match it up with an adjuster. At the other end of the pipe you weld on an old half inch drive socket so you can attach a torque wrench to set the preload. It's not all that easy- you must set the backlash and preload in steps. If I get a chance I will measure the dimensions of the home made tool and get back with you.

It is possible that I'm conflating the D30 setup with the 8.25 setup. I know what you're referring to. I have a short version of the tool that combined with ratchet extensions approximate the factory tool for getting to the internal adjusters. Thank you for reminding me! I looked into the gear shimming/adjusting procedure quite a bit before I actually did the work, and I did the front and rear in quick succession because I had purchased the Ox locker for the front and the 29 spline carrier and shafts for the rear. I'll look into that procedure again. I do have a copy of the FSM that I keep close at hand. It's not work I've ever done save for that pair of axles, so after several years I'm not surprised that I'm getting details like shims vs. adjusters confused.

It's funny that you bring this up because I was sitting there looking at it yesterday and in particular, looking at the stops and thinking about the adjusters, and I wondered why it needed shims at all. But I did have a memory of shimming a carrier, which most likely is of the front axle, then. Fortunately I know exactly where that tool is. I might even have two of them. Unfortunately, where the Jeep is parked in the garage there isn't enough room to pull the passenger axle shaft out. So I'll have to reinstall the Aussie, repark it further from the wall, pull the locker out again, then finally pull the shafts if it turns out that I need to correct for a bad mesh rather than for something simple like the outer axle bearing not being inserted far enough into the tube as mtbxj87 was suggesting. I'm hoping for the outer bearing being the culprit but doubt it since the old 27 spline shafts fit in fine. I changed the carrier but not the outer bearings, so Occam's razor seems to point more to what I changed.
 
Took some pictures to illustrate the unequal axle shaft protrusion into the differential carrier:

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j1606r.jpg

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I'm planning on pulling the front driver's side axe shaft today and replacing a bad u-joint. Still need to find or order more gear marking compound. But I should be able to check the backlash today also. The wife and small child are visiting in-laws today so I have a little more free time than I usually would.

I will look into the possibility that the outer axle bearing is not properly seated if the gear mesh pattern and backlash measurement are fine. If everything checks out ok, I will have to go to Plan B. I just sold a very nice Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull to the Amish guy who works on my building, which puts me close to being able to buy an OX locker for this axle. I've been very happy with the OX in my front axle. The only issue I've ever had with it is the cable sometimes gets rubbed by the tire. It's wrapped in heater hose so the cable itself has never suffered any damage, but it looks like it should be easier to route the cable in the rear anyway. All of this effort I've put in recently has been to simply test the theory that the locker is damaged and the source of my symptoms. Putting in the stock spider gears was supposed to be able to tell me that, but then I ran into the clearance issue with the DS shaft where the c-clip wouldn't fit in even with the axle shaft fully inserted.

Here are some pictures of the geared faces of the locker, which show some definite wear. One thing that is clear from the pictures is that one of the sides is much more chewed up than the other. I tried to keep each half of the locker together, but I am not sure which half was on which side, unfortunately. I'm trying to figure out if that is due to the difference in the depths that the two axle shafts are able to be inserted. It's tempting to assign blame there, but when the cross pin is installed, as shown in the photos above, it becomes the limiting factor of insertion depth and the system becomes symmetrical again, at least within the carrier itself, so I think that the locker should behave normally and the only real difference is where the drums sit, that difference probably being an 1/8 of an inch or so. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

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I suppose anything is possible, but it's unlikely that a wheel bearing is precluding you from installing the axle c clip unless the bearing is grossly mis installed. You could do a visual inspection and compare the depth of the bearing in relation to the seal on the other side. Also, when properly installed the bearing comes to rest against a shoulder in the housing. You could check that with an inspection mirror.
The photos of your locker show a lot of wear. That could very well be your problem.
Musing over the axle install again; the axle shaft maintains the same diameter for quite a distance outboard of the bearing, so as I stated above, something weird would need to be going on with the bearing for it to cause the issue.
Have you tried sliding a side gear onto the suspect axle with it out of the vehicle?
 
I suppose anything is possible, but it's unlikely that a wheel bearing is precluding you from installing the axle c clip unless the bearing is grossly mis installed. You could do a visual inspection and compare the depth of the bearing in relation to the seal on the other side. Also, when properly installed the bearing comes to rest against a shoulder in the housing. You could check that with an inspection mirror.
The photos of your locker show a lot of wear. That could very well be your problem.
Musing over the axle install again; the axle shaft maintains the same diameter for quite a distance outboard of the bearing, so as I stated above, something weird would need to be going on with the bearing for it to cause the issue.
Have you tried sliding a side gear onto the suspect axle with it out of the vehicle?

I do agree with you for several reasons that it's most likely not the outer bearing. I just wish it was because that would be an easier fix. I will do a visual check on the bearing vs. seal depth though--that sounds like a simple way to approach the seated/not seated correctly issue.

I have installed that same shaft in my '99 (which isn't giving me any trouble) and it fits with that or the other side gear just fine. I've also installed the '99 shaft in the troubled '98 differential and it won't fit with that (or the other) side gear. Likewise, either side gear will fit on the passenger side of the '98 but neither will fit on the driver side. The pictures I took of the shafts inserted with the Aussie side gears clearly show why: the DS shaft doesn't insert nearly as far as the PS shaft does. I believe that the most likely cause is that the carrier is adjusted too far towards the passenger side, which is seems strange because when I set up the gears, I did run a pattern with marking compound and it looked good, and the backlash was also in spec.

I've been dragging my feet on getting more marking compound, so I haven't checked that yet. I'm figuring on picking up additional outer bearings and seals when I get the marking compound since I'm sure they are original and I might as well replace them while everything else is torn apart. Waiting on getting paid at the beginning of next month to order everything. Also seriously considering getting the OX locker, but I want to identify the problem correctly first so that I don't put $1000+ into the OX only to have the same problem all over again. After looking at all the evidence, I'm betting on a poor carrier adjustment job being the problem, but if it isn't, I don't want to be holding on to that OX and not being able to put it in.

And, yeah, the Aussie does look pretty chewed up in spots. I would have already been able to completely seal the deal on assigning blame or innocence to the Aussie for the thumping and banging if it weren't for the open side gears not fitting in. The faces being chewed up like that make me further suspect it, but I just haven't been able to do the control experiment yet. It's killing me but I only have the free time that I have to dedicate to this. I did get the front u-joint replaced though, which makes me feel a little bit better. I hadn't had to do this with full circle clips before and that made it a lot harder than what I was used to. Also, I don't think I like the BFH method. I had issues with the needle bearings displacing and then I had to pull the caps again a couple of times through the process. My 20 ton Harbor Freight press, imprecise though it may be, didn't cause those problems.
 
I made a simple tool to help me remove the old u-joint caps with square stock. It allowed me to pound on the ears of the inner or outer shaft or on the caps themselves once one of the shafts was removed. It's nothing special but it made my life a lot easier once it was in hand. The welds are kind of ugly but they held up just fine to the BFH treatment. I wasn't too worried about rusty old bearings getting lost.

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Here are some pictures of the pattern I'm getting. Backlash measurement to follow soon. Didn't have time to set up for the measurement before work.

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Backlash is nine thousandths of an inch, which according to my reference (Differentials: Identification, Restoration & Repair) is perfectly acceptable for the given range of six to ten thousandths of an inch. I conclude that the axle is set up properly as far as the carrier adjustment goes and I continue to have no idea why I can't get the DS axle shaft pushed in far enough to install the c-clip. I have to go out of town for the weekend so I'll look at the position of the outer axle bearing for the DS vs. the PS when I get back.

Here is what I did in pursuit of eliminating the thumps and bangs.

1)Transfer case chain (replaced with no change to symptoms)
2) Drive shaft (removed rear and noise went away when test driven; swapped front out for the rear and noise did not return)
3) Removed Aussie locker which was obviously worn, then attempted to put in stock open differential spider gears but the c-clip in the DS wouldn't go in. This would have really clinched the locker suspicion, but the c-clip issue blocked me!

Because the DS axle shaft protrudes into the differential carrier much less than the PS shaft does, I thought I may have made a mistake when I adjusted the carrier and set the backlash several years back when I converted the 8.25 from 27 to 29 spline. My pattern looks good to my amateur eye and the backlash is certainly in the proper range. The lack of any gear whine also seemed to qualitatively suggest I had gotten it right, but I thought it definitely should be checked.

So I believe that it was the locker that was the problem, but the simple diagnosis--replace the locker with the open spider gears--is proving much more difficult than I anticipated. I have been intending to buy an Ox locker for this, but I'm afraid that I'll run into the same c-clip issue with that, so I've been holding off, hoping to gain a better understanding of the source of the fitment problem. The last thing I'll be checking is the seating of the outer axle bearings. I have been browsing around here reading about cases where people needed to thin the c-clips to get them to work with the 8.25 when installing aftermarket parts, but this is with all stock parts, and it seems to be caused by a lack of proper protrusion of the DS axle shaft into the carrier, which is otherwise correctly positioned as shown by the gear pattern and backlash measurement.

Anyone have any other ideas for my situation?
 
I think that the c-clip issue has been bogging me down and distracting me from the primary line of inquiry, which is determining what is causing all of the noise and impact in the driveline. I'm pretty sure the locker is just beat, but I haven't been able to install the open spider gears because of a small but significant clearance problem preventing the c-clip from actually sliding into the groove in the driver side axle shaft. Since this is the definitive test that will allow me to condemn the locker, it just needs to happen. I've read several cases where people have thinned their Chrysler 8.25 c-clips to facilitate installation when aftermarket parts are used that cause the same general sort of interference. But it seems like there must be extra side to side play in the system as a result of using the thinner clips. As an alternative approach, I'm thinking that I'll grind a ramp on the troubled side gear and just push the installation through. I should be removing less overall metal from a much larger part, and I won't be increasing the lateral movement of the axle shaft, so I think this will be a win-win solution. All I need to know for the purpose of the diagnosis is either "symptoms have resolved" or "symptoms remain." Soon we will see.
 
I followed through on my plan to modify the stock side gear and also added a slight bevel to the front third of the c-clip. I used a straight die grinder with a conical stone for the side gear and a 12" circular sanding machine to bevel the c-clip. What I like about this was that the c-clip will still present its original full width to the groove in the axle shaft when it is seated, but the bevel also allowed the side gear to be clearanced less, preserving as much integrity as possible. It will be a little tricky getting the clip back out, but I tried it a few times before I committed to sealing everything back up again and it does come out if properly aligned. As a temporary measure, it is fine.

As I was hoping, all of the noise and concussive nonsense has abated. I think I have definitively shown that the problems I was having were being caused by the locker malfunctioning. It's annoying that it took me several months to reach this simple conclusion, but there were several points where my effort could have been applied more efficiently.

Now that I've determined the source of the symptoms, I'm wondering what caused the problem. Was it just that I wheeled it too roughly with all that winter wonderland wheelspin, or were there other mitigating factors? Various pieces of evidence have surfaced during the course of this inquiry. First, the Aussie's center gap was correct and just about right in the middle of the acceptable range when I measured it the first time I pulled the diff cover. Externally, the locker looked fine. It was a mistake to not disassemble the locker at that point and examine the geared faces of the components that are actually responsible for the locking/unlocking.

Because I didn't examine the locker carefully, I looked for other areas that might cause similar symptoms. I became convinced that the transfer case chain was slipping. I replaced it, but noticed as I did that the new chain was very close in size to size to the old one. Once I got everything back together I still had the same problems when I did the test drive.

I had also eliminated the drive shafts as the source of the symptoms. When I ruled these out, the rear axle was the only part of the system left that was likely to be acting like a, well, malfunctioning locker. I had planned to swap the stock open differential spider gears just as mtbxj87 had astutely suggested way early on in this investigation, and cleverly sourced them from my stock '99, which I then installed my extra locker, a Powertrax No-Slip, in. The No-Slip has been working great with the smallish 235/75-15 tires on the stock Jeep. I think it will last a long time in there and I don't regret not using it for the '98, even if it would have allowed me to diagnose the Aussie a lot sooner.

Anyway, another piece of evidence that seemed noteworthy was that, as the pictures show, one half of the locker looked to be in much worse condition than the other. Then I found that I couldn't install the c-clip on the driver side axle shaft because the shaft wouldn't insert far enough into the differential case to fully expose the groove. Please consider the following thread, in which center gap in the similar Lockrite locker is briefly discussed:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1079767

The key piece of information that stood out for me there was the point that the center gap itself is not the dimension that matters, but rather the distance from the center pin to the locker half. The center gap is a surrogate measurement that assumes the sum of the left and right gap values are approximately equal. While it is important to note that the function tests were all satisfied, it is almost certain that the actual distance from one half to the center was substantially different than from the other half to the center. Perhaps this hastened the locker's demise.

I have not yet determined if the outer axle bearing was completely seated, but I think it probably is. I have a suspicion that the differential case itself is somehow implicated in this mess. When I bought the Jeep, it had a Dana 35 sitting under it. I found someone selling a set of axles here on NAXJA with 4.10 gears and the rear was a 27 spline Chrysler 8.25. The 8.25 had c-clips that came out easily and I believe that indicates the outer axle bearings were seated correctly. The fact that the c-clip won't install on a stock side gear in the replacement 29 spline case in the same housing seems to point to the case. I also bought the case from someone else on NAXJA. I'm not making any accusations, but I wonder if that individual had any problems with it before deciding to sell it. Because I now have a set of spider gears installed in the case, and they seem to fit in and mesh correctly, I have to assume that when this case was manufactured, it was machined to correctly align the spider gears, i.e. it's not that one of the seating surfaces for the side gears isn't the right distance from the center, it's that the center pin holes were bored a little too far towards the passenger side. This is just speculation at this point. When I tear it apart again, I think I need to measure the gap between the side gears and the center pin. I should have done that with the locker side gears also but I wasn't thinking clearly enough about the case geometry at the time. Now that it's sealed back up, filled with oil, and rather inconvenient to take the measurement, of course I see it more clearly.

This is encouraging, though, because it makes me believe that if I get an OX locker for this axle, there's a good chance that it will go in fine and that I may not have any issue with the c-clips at all. Or, I could go the cheap route and get another lunchbox locker that will suffer the same demise. The cheap route is clearly less desirable in the long term, but I've had a Ford 8.8 sitting in the garage for a while. This is the axle that I'd ultimately like to be running. But it needs to be regeared. And if I'm going to regear it, I'm going to go lower. That means I need to go lower in the front axle as well. And the 8.8 axle needs to be prepped to go under the Cherokee.

I think the answer is clear. I will get another lunchbox locker for the 8.25 for the time being. I will get the gears and install kits for the 8.8 and the Dana 30 next. Later I will get an OX for the 8.8, probably after I wear the Aussie out that I have for it. I have almost everything else I need for the 8.8, including an open differential case so,I can use the Aussie. Even so, I don't have a lot of free time so this will push off the 8.8 project for a while. In the meantime, I'll just continue to enjoy my Cherokee as I have in the past. I want the OX, but I really don't want it for this particular axle. So thank you all for helping me to figure this out. I was hoping for a little more input from the XJ Titans here, but I've still arrived where I needed to, and hopefully this dissertation will help someone else out when their junk starts falling apart. I can't stress enough that my initial inspection of the locker was wholly inadequate. I found the best way to get the pins out was to use a set of forceps with fat finger grip areas that thinned out just in the last ~1 cm, allowing them to get I to the tight space to grip the pins. The pins like to not come back out of the holes they are set in because the viscous oil makes for the development of a partial vacuum behind the pins. Even so, the method of pulling the pins out a little, then a little more, then a little more and so on until they were out worked.

I know that I tend to write a lot, but I think best this way. Hopefully it has been worth the read. I will post up again after I get the new locker because I want to record the side gear to center pin dimensions, which will help me to think more about why I had to modify the side gear and c-clip to get the clip in and test the theory that the locker was, in fact, at fault. Until then. . .
 
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