GM 5.3/4L60E/Klune/Stak 300

[Paul S]

Jeff,

Based on your photo it seems like you should have way more bump travel than me for any given ride height, as my tierod gets nowhere near my frame since my ram hits the oil pan first:

What am I missing?

Paul

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Well Paul, I don't know. Maybe I'm just getting worked up over nothing, but the tape measure doesn't lie. Would you do me a favor and run a level back from the center of your tie rod/ram and then measure down to the top of the axle tube? Perhaps your whole tie rod/ram sits closer to the axle tube than mine? You've got different knuckles, different inner C's and different high steer arms. Sitting at about 7 degrees of caster I measured about 6.5". Thanks, Jeff

 

[Paul S]

Based on your pictures I think you're getting worked up over nothing, it looks good & you've already gone a long way to increase usable bump.

I ran the level back form the top of the tierod & measured 5.5" down to the top of the axle tube.
Glad you asked, as I checked my caster while I was at it & found about 8.5 degrees. I usually set it to about 4.5 degrees, but made new front arms last month to lengthen my wheelbase 1" & musta forgot to set my caster. With full hydro it wasn't noticeable.

Paul

 

[FarmerMatt]

The biggest problem we all had when we had steering gears was the pitman arm. You might want to mock up the steering gear & see how all that would fit. My front axle placement was dictated by the pitman arm to get as much compression as possible. I think you're going to end up have to run the tierod under the arms, but you'll still have a problem with the draglink hitting? BTW my ram comes withing a 1/2" of the crank pully. I'm pushed furthar forward than Paul.

 

[Goatman]

I don't have any measurements handy, but like Matt said, my big problem is clearing the pitman arm. I also have a problem with the track bar clearing the pan with the mounts fairly high, both to parallel the drag link and to keep the roll center high. My track bar on the buggy has a slight bend in it (reinforced) to clear the pan. You remember on one trip to CO, with the XJ, that I put the track bar into the pan on a hard hit.

How does your pitman arm clearance look? My whole steering design and geometry centers around clearing the pitman arm as well as being tucked up as high as possible. I think you'll end up putting the tie rod under the high steer arms.

BTW, really nice work and design on the way you're mounting the t-case.

 

[Goatman]

Also, you have those nice arms with 5 holes, I'd be sure to use them. Add a thick tab or some structure to the front of the knuckle to pick up that 5th hole. Those four 1/2" bolts don't always get the job done.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Now for something radically? different. I worked HARD to get the WJ pitman arm off, but with heat and pressure it finally popped. I then slipped the steering gear in where it HAS to go and slipped the pitman arm on pointing FORWARD and mocked up a drag link.

I CAN get the WJ box setup for hydro assist AND reverse rotation. This is just like the JK steering setup. It does all fit and I don't see any clearance problems throughout the suspension movement however with the box as far forward as it has to be, the drag link does angle back a fair amount. I could move the axle forward more, but I really think it is forward quite enough. I also personally think the geometry I am suggesting really makes sense with the pitman arm pointing forward and swinging in the same direction as the steering knuckles. Paul told me to be careful of getting the drag link too far forward as it can get smacked on obstacles, but with it up as far as it would be in this setup would it be a problem? If I don't go with this design, what would you suggest? Jeff

 

[Paul S]

Any reason you couldn't use a TJ pitman arm? It's been a few years since I messed with WJ & TJ pitmans, but IIRC, the TJ arm is within 1/4" drop of the WJ while about 3/4" - 1" shorter.

Paul

 

[Goatman]

Why can't/won't you move the axle further forward? Would that improve anything?

You could get that drag link into some rocks, being that far forward, but it should work if that's what you need to do. be careful about the pitman arm being too long and loosing too much steering angle.

 

[JeepFreak21]

iiiinteresting... what has to be done to convert it to the reverse rotation?
Billy

 

[Root Moose]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here so excuse this if it's a dumb question... I haven't crawled under a Jeep in a while.

What is the "normal" orientation of the Pitman when the wheels are in the straight ahead position and the steering box/wheel is centered?

Does it make sense to mock it up in this position also so that the drag link is parallel to the axle's tubes at that point? Wouldn't this give the better straight ahead steering feel for when you are doing those high speed whoops and such?

Or is the straight ahead pointing Pitman in that position shown above? Is that what the reverse rotation is referencing?

Conversely, did you mock up at the steering stops as well?

Just throwing it out there....

 

[JeepFreak21]

Maybe I'm missing something obvious here so excuse this if it's a dumb question... I haven't crawled under a Jeep in a while.

What is the "normal" orientation of the Pitman when the wheels are in the straight ahead position and the steering box/wheel is centered?

Does it make sense to mock it up in this position also so that the drag link is parallel to the axle's tubes at that point? Wouldn't this give the better straight ahead steering feel for when you are doing those high speed whoops and such?

Or is the straight ahead pointing Pitman in that position shown above? Is that what the reverse rotation is referencing?

Conversely, did you mock up at the steering stops as well?

Just throwing it out there....

Normally, the pitman arm is 180° from the picture, pointing back at the driver.
Billy

 

[Root Moose]

I think I'd want the drag link to be parallel with the axle tube at the straight ahead position then, more especially if this thing is going to see highway usage.

Shorter Pitman to move the axle as forward as little as possible, corresponding lever/swing at the knuckles? That's what I'd look at.

 

[cracker]

I think I'd want the drag link to be parallel with the axle tube at the straight ahead position then, more especially if this thing is going to see highway usage.

Shorter Pitman to move the axle as forward as little as possible, corresponding lever/swing at the knuckles? That's what I'd look at.

Can't easily go to a shorter pitman arm because then you loose your steering range under articulation.

Jeff will us this rig offroad and he'll need that range.

 

[1998xj1985]

with the drang link pointed so far forward, at least it looks like a lot in the pictures, you're going to be pivoting the link around the rod end at the knuckle a lot more than with the arm behind the box - i.e a greater component of motion will go into pivoting the drag link as opposed to turning the knuckle. also, not familiar with WJ boxes, but i suspect it too has internal stops, so won't this kill how much the wheels can turn from lock to lock?

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Thanks for all the replies folks! I was under the rig playing a bit more last night and haven't decided on anything, but I'm still leaning towards pointing the pitman arm forward and having the box movement reversed. Here's a couple pics I took with the axle still 9.5" from the frame, the tie rod on top of the steering arms (hitting the harmonic balancer) and the pitman arm pointing back.

I moved the tie rod under the steering arms and pushed the suspension up till it was about 8" from the frame. The tie rod cleared everything well in this position. The axle is very close to my exhaust pipe, but might work out ok. Running the drag link to the top of the passengers side arm will probably require a little more frame work on the passengers side (to match what I did on the drivers side.) Putting the pitman arm pointing to the back and trying to put the drag link to the bottom of the WJ pitman arm caused contact issues with the tie rod. I just don't see how I can run any sort of a pitman arm pointing back and get a drag link to clear at full stuff. Now if it continues to point forward, no problem!

Tight to exhaust!

I also looked at trying to snake a track bar in place and that looks to be quite difficult. It wants to go through the oil pan! I'm considering perhaps running a Dodge Ram track bar that has a hump to go over the differential and then pass under the oil pan. Jeff

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

I've also been working on getting the York On Board Air compressor mounted and I'll cover that in another post, but after getting it in place last night I stood back and noticed that with the axle sitting where I have it (about 4.5" forward of the old coil centerline which means it is actually about 6-6.5" forward from stock) the coil overs will need to be angled back a little to clear the York on one side and the alternator on the other side!

Jeff

 

[Goatman]

It's like a big jigsaw puzzle, Jeff. I went through it with mine, the first couple things I tried didn't work well. I bent a few steering links until I got the best (for me) set up. I didn't like the tie rod under the arms and further forward, it got bent. Paul and I talked about getting the tie rod high verses further forward, he was saying it's better to get it further back (closer to the axle) than it is to get it higher, and in my case that proved to be the case. I tried putting the tie rod in front of the drag link to make more room for the pitman arm, and that didn't work, I smashed that tie rod the first trip out. In my case, I ended up doing inverted Y steering instead of crossover because it was the only way to make everything fit and keep it high, and I used a nearly flat pitman arm. My biggest single problem was clearing the pitman arm, which is why you're considering having the pitman arm point forward.

I wish I had some suggestions for you after looking at the pictures, but I doubt I have any ideas that you haven't already considered.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Onto other fun projects. I came across a little upstart company in Missouri that made a Sanden AC mount for putting a 5.3 in a BMW and it worked so well they started marketing it. www.kwikperf.com I liked their setup so decided to try it with the idea that I would mount a York compressor for On Board Air instead of a Sanden. Their aluminum plates and spacers were extremely light and looked pretty cheesy for what I paid, but when the system was all bolted on it seemed darn rigid! It consists of a plate that bolts to the passengers side head in two spots (clearanced around the valve cover) and uses spacers between it and a second plate. There are a total of four spacers between the plates. One spacer has a bracket that extends down and catches the two mounting bolts on the water pump that used to mount the belt tensioner. The belt tensioner is repositioned to bolt onto the plates through two of the spacers. Finally, the compressor bolts straight to one of the plates and through a couple small spacers to the other plate. I took a flat plate of steel that bolts to the York compressor and welded tabs to it that bolt to the two Kwik Perf. plates. It looks kind of cobbled next to the nice aluminum plates, but when everything was tightened, it seems pretty solid! I measured that I'll need a 109" belt.

This pic shows the tensioner relocated and with a smooth pulley installed. The idler above it seems like it could use more support, but the guys at Kwik Perf. assure me it is up to the forces involved.

Here's the York installed.

Clears the hood!

Heater hoses will pass just under the York.

The back corner is close to the exhaust manifold, but not that close.

Back to the axle and suspension, Jeff

 

[Sponge Bob]

Now you moved the coil center line forward 4" but are still going to have the coil mount in front of the axle as stock or could you move the axle forward under the spring and help your steering. Tj's run there box way out front and the aftermarket made a skid for it.Our pitman arm to pass knuckle is 2 1/2' ahead of the harmonic And approx 1' below with the same motor at ride height