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GM 5.3/4L60E/Klune/Stak 300

Sponge Bob said:
Ok, you are looking at full stuff with both sides equal. What about with the axle articulated. I think you may have hitting if the pass side is stuffed only because of the width of the frame. It could be tuned with bump stops.
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You've got a point there. The coilovers will be mounted just inside the steering knuckle probably on the inner C's, so when the axle is articulated the steering arm shouldn't raise very much. However, I can see how that could be a problem especially with the drag link. I can trim more of the bottom of the frame, but it could get into the balancer. I guess we'll see. I really wanted to keep full stuff at or less than 8" from the frame. I plan to set the coilovers to be fully collapsed at the height shown in the above pictures. This will allow 6" of up travel at 7" of lift. In any case, I'm going to work on the crossmember and control arms now. I'll make them fit at this amount of compression then see how things look as I cycle the axle up and down and twisted either way. Jeff
 
Jeff 98XJ WI said:
The pitman arm fits on in ONE spot. I swung it left and right and marked the ends of travel then swung it half way and marked that as center and set the drag link to make the steering knuckles centered at that spot as well. So, when the pitman arm is centered in its range it does NOT point straight back. It points a bit towards the center of the vehicle. If I file out the indexing splines I could move it one spline and perhaps get it to point straight back in the middle of it's travel, but maybe that's not really needed either? Jeff
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Hmm, that's kinda weird. My only thought is that with the knuckles both being symetrical and the Pitman being offset that the steering throw ultimately will not match side to side. I was thinking that since the Astro van uses IFS in the front the opposite side idler arm on the van cancels this out. You said you are using the WJ steering box. Maybe it is special indexing on the Astro van arm specifically?

You've got bigger fish to fry, leave it and come back to it IF it ends up being an issue. I have a feeling that is something particular to the IFS arm though. Don't make any permanent modifications around that Pitman arm (IMO).
 
Root Moose said:
Hmm, that's kinda weird. My only thought is that with the knuckles both being symetrical and the Pitman being offset that the steering throw ultimately will not match side to side. I was thinking that since the Astro van uses IFS in the front the opposite side idler arm on the van cancels this out. You said you are using the WJ steering box. Maybe it is special indexing on the Astro van arm specifically?

You've got bigger fish to fry, leave it and come back to it IF it ends up being an issue. I have a feeling that is something particular to the IFS arm though. Don't make any permanent modifications around that Pitman arm (IMO).
Click to expand...

Actually the indexing on the WJ arm, the Waggy arm and the Astro arm are all different! I filed out the indexing splines on the waggy arm and can move it anywhere on the splines now and may do the same to the Astro arm. The Astro steering is really different! the box mounts vertically I believe and the pitman arm swings left to right as viewed from the front of the vehicle. It has a drag link that goes to the middle of a center link with an idler arm on both ends! I think tie rods then go to each steering arm from either end of the center link. Jeff
 
Jeff 98XJ WI said:
I spent all weekend trying different things and mostly just staring and googling different ideas. Anybody have any information on swapping the king pin steering knuckles side for side? I was thinking of putting the stock steering arm pointing back on the passengers side so I could mount an assist ram to it similar to what Goatman has done. I would then run steering similar to what he is using. One drag link from a pitman arm to the top of the inner hole on the ballistic arms and then a tie rod from the bottom of the drivers side arm to a tab welded to the drag link over by the passengers side knuckle. I think I could run that and have it clear everything at full stuff...barely. As for the ram, I would rather it work on a side to side tie rod so it is pushing one side and pulling the other but I don't know if I can make that work with the steering links setup like Goatmans. I really didn't want a ram pushing on the back of a double ended high steer arm and trying to pivot it on the studs in the top of the knuckle as I think that is just asking for breakeage plus I already have a single ended arm. So, I thought if the ram were pushing/pulling directly on the stock steering arm portion of the knuckle, that might better withstand the force. The only issue I see is that I would have to run the brakes on the front portion of the rotor, but is that a problem? Anybody else familiar with swapping the knuckles side for side? Also, I think I'll have to use a flat pitman arm and found out that an Astro van has just the ticket, so I'm shopping for one of them now.

Just for your information, here is some data I took. I mocked up a straight tie rod from high steer arm to high steer arm and then measured side to side movement of the steering holes letting the knuckles swing from steering stop to steering stop. I got 7" for the inner hole and 9" for the outer hole in the Ballistic Fab arms. I then measured the throw of the WJ pitman arm from lock to lock on the WJ steering box and got 7.75" with the WJ arm being 6 1/8" center to center. A Waggy pitman arm produced 8.5" of throw with it being 6.75" center to center. The Ballistic arms measure out to 6 5/16" for the inner hole and 8.5" for the outer hole from the king pin center. You can see that the Waggy arm will not produce enough throw to operate the high steer arm from stop to stop when in the outer hole! Jeff
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Jeff, the 8.5" of throw with the Waggy arm against 9" of throw on the knuckle to the stops is what you'll want, and adjust the stops in a little to keep the steering gear from bottoming. The only way you're going to get it turning tighter than that is to weld up the holes in the arms and drill new ones exactly where you want them.......which is what I did on my old arms, then changed arms and got them with no holes. The stops are adjustable, I used axle shaft yoke clearance as the determining factor, well actually I went past and ground the yokes quite a bit. But, I wouldn't go that sharp and clearance the yokes using stock Spicer shafts and joints.

I question the thought about the double ended ram putting more stress on the bolts than attaching the ram to the knuckle. Either way the resistance of one tire turning is going through the bolts (really, not through the bolts, but through the clamping force provided by the bolts). If the ram is attached to the knuckle, the force to turn the opposite knuckle goes through the bolts, if the ram is attached to a double sided arm the force to turn the same side knuckle goes through the bolts. In reality, force and stress gets distributed all around the various steering components and I think it's hard to determine exactly what configuration will get more stress. Just make it all strong, and figure out how to use that extra fifth hole in the arms. Before the next KOH, my arms are getting gusseted and welded to the knuckle......but I've tried a number of steering configurations and am now satisfied that I'm runnng what I'll stick with, and I always have a grinder. :)
 
Sponge Bob said:
Ok, you are looking at full stuff with both sides equal. What about with the axle articulated. I think you may have hitting if the pass side is stuffed only because of the width of the frame. It could be tuned with bump stops.
Click to expand...

This shouldn't be an issue, though it is a good thought. If the spring rate is stiff enough to resist bottoming at speed, you won't be able to bottom the shocks when articulating. Also, the bumpstops do the same thing, they will compress much more under the force of a hard hit than they'll compress under the light force of articulating. If it's set up for everything to clear at full stuff, like Jeff is doing, articulating won't be an issue.
 
Jeff, after reading more, I see you've come up with a pretty good solution for the steering. I see no issues with the knuckles reversed if it works. Keep in mind that you still need rock clearance for the ram, even mounted behind the axle. My ram is mounted to the high steer arm, and the tabs on the axle are in about a 10 o'clock position on the tube (if you follow what I mean), and the bolt on the lower tab is totally beat up from hitting rocks, even though it's right behind the axle tube.

Have you figured yet how the ram throw will match the mounting hole in the knuckle? If you can adjust the ram travel to match, you could space up and gusset the ram mount to raise the ram a little. I used the full 8" throw of the ram, and placed the mounting hole exactly where it needed to be using two tabs welded to the end of the high steer arm. I had to grind just a little off the end of the arm for clearance, and it put the ram mount in double shear.

BTW, using an 8" x 1.75" ram, and not spacing down the ram throw, even with only a 6" distance from ball joint center to link mount, with 40's I can steer easily with one hand in all trail situations, and the steering is quick at slow speeds and tight and stable at fast speeds. If the sector shaft doesn't break, I think this is an ideal steering combination, and it turns real sharp.

Are the high steer arms set up for TRE's?
 
Goatman said:
Jeff, after reading more, I see you've come up with a pretty good solution for the steering. I see no issues with the knuckles reversed if it works. Keep in mind that you still need rock clearance for the ram, even mounted behind the axle. My ram is mounted to the high steer arm, and the tabs on the axle are in about a 10 o'clock position on the tube (if you follow what I mean), and the bolt on the lower tab is totally beat up from hitting rocks, even though it's right behind the axle tube.

Have you figured yet how the ram throw will match the mounting hole in the knuckle? If you can adjust the ram travel to match, you could space up and gusset the ram mount to raise the ram a little. I used the full 8" throw of the ram, and placed the mounting hole exactly where it needed to be using two tabs welded to the end of the high steer arm. I had to grind just a little off the end of the arm for clearance, and it put the ram mount in double shear.

BTW, using an 8" x 1.75" ram, and not spacing down the ram throw, even with only a 6" distance from ball joint center to link mount, with 40's I can steer easily with one hand in all trail situations, and the steering is quick at slow speeds and tight and stable at fast speeds. If the sector shaft doesn't break, I think this is an ideal steering combination, and it turns real sharp.

Are the high steer arms set up for TRE's?
Click to expand...

Yes, the current high steer arms are tapered to fit large GM tie rod/drag link ends coming in from the top. I'll have to redo the passengers side taper to come in from the bottom if I go with your steering setup (I think there is a kit to do that.) I don't know much about ram assist. Are you saying the ram will move a certain amount (based on steering box throw and the hydraulics within the box) and I need to match that to the distance the arms move with the physical connection of the drag link/tie rod by making the ram mount to the knuckle at whatever distance is needed to match things up? Are there different ram throws like 6" or 8"? Sounds like you would suggest an 8" ram, right? You are basing this on using a standard steering box though and the WJ box may have a different volume of fluid passing through it perhaps with different pressure etc? The inner holes on the high steer arms are 6 5/8" from the king pin center which is 5/8" longer than yours.

I'm not going to get too worked up about this till I get a few more things done like control arms and track bar.

As for ram force, the way I see it, a ram acting on the back of a high steer arm needs to push BOTH steering knuckles through the clamping force of the studs mounting it. A ram on the steering knuckle itself will push the passengers side steering knuckle without needing to use the high steer arm and it's clamping force. Then the force needed to turn only the drivers side steering knuckle needs to go through the clamping force of the high steer arm although it also has to go through the weak area of the Ford knuckle. So, it would seem to me that a ram acting on the whole steering knuckle would be easier on it than a ram acting on the back side of a high steer arm. Jeff
 
I finally got the crossmember installed. I still need to weld the bushing brackets to the t-case cradle but it sits in there just fine. I welded angle iron pieces to the inside of the frame rail up from the bottom so the bolts going through the crossmember and these brackets will be recessed above the bottom of the frame. I plan to drill holes through the frame and weld in a piece of 1/2" rod to further tie the brackets into place. I placed the crossmember so I can just get a wrench on the bolts in the back of the front CV driveshaft. I believe it is sitting about 2" back from a stock crossmember. I hope I can install long arm mounts that will tuck the arms flush to the bottom of the crossmember yet still clear the driveshaft at full droop. I may end up with the long arm ends a bit below the bottom of the crossmember. I guess we'll see. Jeff

P1010038-1.jpg


P1010035.jpg


P1010033.jpg


P1010032.jpg


P1010036.jpg
 
I'm pretty new to the whole realm of fabrication, but you're using only 4 bolts to mount the crossmember? Or am I missing something.
 
I really don't think gussets or more attachments are necessary. I put a 1/4" x 2" strap through the 2x4 and the 1/4" tabs welded to the frame are welded all the way around AND will have an attachment through the frame to the other side. The frame has been plated on both sides by 1/8" material too. The bolts are close in to the small tabs so it would take quite a bit to bend something. As for the control arms, the four bolts hold the crossmember to the tabs, but since the tabs are tight to either side of the 2x4 it would take an awful lot of force to move the thing for and aft...the tabs would have to rip off. I could be wrong on this and feel free to tell me, but I really don't think it's going to be a problem. Jeff
 
Sponge Bob said:
4 bolts are fine . but the 1/4 tab welded to the cross member may be a long term bend or weld issue thats all.
Click to expand...

I think that's 1/4" strap that runs all the way through the cross member. Like, the cross member is slotted and he slid the strap in and welded it. If that's the case, I would think it would be just fine :dunno:
Billy
 
I'd be tempted to stregthen those mounts as well. Especially if you're mounting control arms off it. For & aft movement is fine as your in shear on that plane, but your up & down plane is only in tension through the bolt. I'd prefer to see a few bolt horizontal through a sleave in the frame. This would get you in shear on all planes.
 
It'd be easy enough to do, just add a tab on top of the crossmember that sits flush with the frame, sleeve the frame and run a bolt thru.........or 2.
 
Jeff 98XJ WI said:
What the heck happened there? Jeff
Click to expand...
He was climbing out of a ravine and it cracked off the front output half. So far they are claiming to replace it before seeing it in person. they say we are number 10 that broke a case out of 10,000 that have been built the others cases were broken by rock racers.
 
XJEEPER said:
It'd be easy enough to do, just add a tab on top of the crossmember that sits flush with the frame, sleeve the frame and run a bolt thru.........or 2.
Click to expand...

The whole reason I did the mount the way I did was to NOT require through the frame bolts. I don't want bolts getting seized in sleeves through the frame. I've had it happen and it's no fun. Short bolts that can be easily gotten to on both sides is what I was going for (as well as off setting them so they shouldn't get hung up on rocks/logs/etc.) The stock crossmember mounts with four bolts into hidden nuts and it supports the weight of the tranny etc just fine. With my setup, I've got four bolts supporting the same weight. There won't be any weight from long arms(negligible anyway.) There will only really be for and aft forces. For that type of force, the bolts will hold in shear and the angle iron welded to the frame in front of and behind the crossmember will keep it in place. As far as the crossmember getting high centered and weight pushing up on it, this will be transferred to the 8" long piece of 2" x 1/4" strap sticking out 2" on either side of the crossmember which will be pushed up onto the bottom of 2" square pieces of angle iron welded securely to the frame AND through the frame with a welded rod...just like a bolt but permanent. I plan to do some sort of angled supports from the outside of the frame up to the rocker and then plate over the supports making access to bolt heads of through the frame bolts more difficult too. I'm just having difficulty understanding what is going to have problems with my setup the way it is. Although I don't think it's necessary, I could perhaps weld a square piece of steel in to box in the angle iron welded to the frame. Have this gusset tight to the edge of the crossmember and extend up past the top of the crossmember. Then, I could weld a tab to the top of the crossmember sticking up next to the gusset and install a bolt through these two plates. This would provide four more bolts in a different sheer plane and not go through the frame. It would provide an impediment to running things like brake lines down along the frame though. I'll think about it, but I really don't see that it's necessary. Jeff
 
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