Another "what front axle should I run" thread.

[blistovmhz]

98XJ, 5.3L, 4l65e, hybrid 231c/j and 241c, d30/44 4.56 lunchboxed, on 35x12.5r15. Roughly 5000lbs loaded with trail supplies.

I dunno if I'm just insanely lucky, ridiculously good at not destroying stuff, or everyone is crazy, but I've had very few axle problems thus far, despite being the guy everyone laughs at as I fly past them on a climb, cause "he'll be the guy blocking the trail ahead with a busted axle". Somehow though, despite the v8, 35's, extreme abuse, I've managed to blow one u-joint (before the v8 swap, and it was probably a stock, original joint), and gone through a few sets of uni's over the past 5-6 years.

I never planned to do tonnes, but for a bunch of reasons I'm now considering it:
* Primary issue is Uni's. I'm blowing through a set once a year, which isn't a huge deal, but I'd hate to have one totally fail on the trail. Hasn't happened yet, but I like my stuff to be relatively low maintenance, and uni's have become a maintenance item.
* Currently running 35's, but they're too easy to spin. I feel like I'd actually save money by going to 37's, just from a tread life standpoint. But, 35's really feel like the limit for my built 30.
* Bigger brakes. The WJ akebono calipers and rotors are much better than the stock D30 XJ stuff, but I'd like more.
* Rear 44 needs some work, and I figure if I'm breaking something, it's time to upgrade and go bigger. I keep bending caliper mounts (KJ), and either way, I haven't been able to make the KJ discs come anywhere near competing with the WJ fronts. I figure throwing in a 14 bolt would be a simple swap, but if I do it, I'd wanna upgrade the front to match.

So anyhow, I keep coming back to a shaved 14 bolt rear, cause it's easy and bomb proof. If I do a 14b rear, I really need to get to work on the front axle as well, but the D60 just seems massively overkill. 500lbs of metal vs the D30's 240lbs seems like more of a leap than I really need. Besides which, the 60 is a PITA to setup for a daily driven XJ. I'm comfortable with fabbing bracketry, and maybe even shortening the pass. side, but damn that mass. Is there really no good middle option for a daily driven, but extremely off-road beaten XJ?
I also don't necessarily want to go to 17" wheels, but with the Ford 60's massive caliper and rotor, you really need a lot of offset to fit 15's, or you have to go with 17's. If I go 17, 37" rubber is WAY more expensive than 37x15.


Also, given my only REAL concern with the d30 at this point, is the uni's, is there anyone making a stronger uni? No, I don't want to spend $1500 on converting to 44 knuckles. Again, for that much money and time, I might as well be half way into a 60.

Edit* Has anyone got any experience with AlloyUSA's 30 spline unit bearing? - http://www.alloyusa.com/alloy-usa-12168.html
I've had only good experiences with their stuff thus far. Would be awesome to be able to just upgrade the unit bearings and call it a day.

 

[clean4drxj]

Sounds like a set of decent halftons would be better for you. I have a built hp44/ 35 spline disc 9" and it's plenty for myself on 35's or 37's

 

[blistovmhz]

My concern with the 44 is running 37's. The ball joints, u-joints, and shafts are about the same size as the d30, so all you're really getting is a larger ring/pinion, very slightly thicker housing, and proper hubs. My roomie is rollin' his SAS'd k1500 on a 44 on 38x15.5r18's right now, but that's only a day of driving on those shoes. He's gone through 3 sets of bearings and two spindles running 37's. that said, It may very well be a spindle/hub/seal problem.

What size meats are you running, how long on them, and how long are you getting out of a bearing?
Also, can you shave a 44? With 37's, my roomies K1500 has almost exactly the pumpkin clearance I have on my 30 with 35's. I'm not opposed to going to 37's (only because of the hopefully increased tread life due to making burnouts harder), but seems like a LOT of work for such a small upgrade. Am I missing something?

 

[blistovmhz]

Actually, now you got me thinking on the 9 inch and it's looking like a pretty sweet option. Definitely more involved in building one up for exactly my application, but ultimately dramatically cheaper and much closer to the correct fit for the application.

I'm thinking a pre-fabbed 9" center section, tube it myself and throw on some 14 bolt hubs for full float. This would weigh 200lbs less than a 14 bolt, have a full inch more ground clearance than a shaved and machined 14 bolt, have slightly cheaper parts, all with the benefit of being able to just buy a pre-setup third member with gears for about the price of a set of naked gears... Really can't beat that.
THen for the front, I'm still considering a d44, but figure if I'm going to be time and money into it, I may as well start building a 9"/d60 front hybrid. Really doesn't seem any more complicated than building a shortened 60, but saves 200-300lbs without sacrificing anything (as I don't need 0.5" wall), and would also have dramatically more pumpkin and oil pan clearance.

Rear 9" builds are everywhere, but not a tonne of full floaters, but could be a fun project.
A front 9" is certainly more involved than a 44, but less than a 60, and then I can fine tune it for my rig, instead of building AROUND the axle.

Anyone done something similar for either front or rear 9 inch?

 

[1990JEEPXJ]

A full float 9 would be sweet. Gear and axle changes without even removing the tires

 

[POLAR_JEEP_04]

I have a decently modified 5.9 V8 with 35"s and a heavy foot. I have a RCVed HP44 with a zip locker and 4.56 gears. it has held up well so far.

 

[clean4drxj]

44 has slightly larger ball joints(real 44's), and not nearly as many ujoint failures because there's more material on the shaft(ears). I was thinking the same thing as you until you see one side by side, that and it's nice to have lockout hubs in case something were to happen.

 

[blistovmhz]

44 has slightly larger ball joints(real 44's), and not nearly as many ujoint failures because there's more material on the shaft(ears). I was thinking the same thing as you until you see one side by side, that and it's nice to have lockout hubs in case something were to happen.

BJ's are very slightly larger, but the shaft ears, at least compared to my aftermarket chromoly's for my 30, are almost identical. Either way, shafts and joints aren't as much a concern to me as BJ's for the 44.

I'm still considering my options. 44 is a pretty simply swap, but honestly, the more I look into doing a 44 PROPERLY, the more it looks like I could build a 609 for only a few hundred more, and have a WAY stronger axle, with more aftermarket support.
Full size driver drop 44's are Unicorns up here now. I'm less limited than my roomie was for his K1500 SAS, mainly because he went leaf sprung, and the perches on anything other than the 78-79 44's are too wide to run >35"x12.5 without smashing into the leafs on lock turning unless you have some massively offset wheels. I'd be linked in the front so not an issue, but even the wider stance 44's are becoming very hard to find.

I figure a 44 housing in shit condition goes for around $500, with no guts. For $500, I can get a brand new fabricated, high clearance 9 inch housing, and then spend $150 on a wrecker d60 for the outers. Cut the 60 outers off and weld'm up to the new 9" housing, buy a set of 4340 shafts, probably some speedi-sleeves for all the seal surfaces, a set of hub locks, and I'm into it for around $1000. Add a brand new third member with gears and locker for another $700, and that's a damn sweet axle for around $1700. Should be absolutely bomb proof, easy to find parts for, and not dramatically heavier than a build 30 (the 44 has about 150lbs on my 30, while the 60 is 300lbs more. A well built 609 should come in at only about 175lbs heavier than my 30).

I'll never find a clean, complete 44, and build it the same way as that theoretical 609, for less than $1700.

Course, I may be way out to lunch. I've never built an axle from scratch so I'm just going on research and input from guys who've done 609's. I'm pretty confident a 44 would easily hold up to my rig, and I may go that direction for the front, but keeping the 609 in the forefront of my imagination for now, just cause at the end of the day it'd be a far superior axle in every way, for probably about the same money, weigh in about the same, and have better aftermarket support and ridiculously cheap gear sets.

For the rear, a native 9" makes tonnes of sense except that it's not a full floater, and I'd have to order up custom shafts. Throwing some 60 outers on it and just running 60 35 spline shafts would cost almost nothing over a stock 9", but I'd get cheaper shafts, never have to press on a wheel bearing, don't have to worry as much about seals, and almost 2" of extra pumpkin clearance over a 60 center section, all while saving 150lbs.

 

[LEVI_KING]

what inner/outter knuckle set up would you run on the 609?...not to mention brakes/wheel bearings...that will be 2k right there, before axles/locker/third member.

609 is big cake to build right, closer to 5k mark for complete built assembly...ive priced all the components to do the same.

...the rear 9 semi-float bearings are fairly large, and ive been running the same bearings in the rear of mine for 7 years, no probs, or failure...cant see the need for full floats, don't get me wrong, it would be a wicked set up to do so, however money saved is money earned....

....and remember, standard 9 thirds are low-pinion, so not as desierable for front applications...

a true hi-9 would be the best bet, but they are a few grand alone...


like I said, to build "right" is big bucks!

 

[clean4drxj]

I can tell you this.. Bigger wheels that are 8 lugs are more, spindles are more along with the bearings and seals, It's more money. You need to find a direction and follow it. "You can't always lead a horse to water". 35-37's are plenty for a rig with a 44/9 combo. 609's are a sweet mix but cost $$$$.

 

[clean4drxj]

To add to the above my 9" is a strange 3rd (largest bearings offered) and a big bearing 35 spline with discs. Plenty for what I'll need. When building axles there are always what if's and Idk's but at the end of the day you're going to do what you need/want anyway.

 

[blistovmhz]

I pretty much stick to junkyard components where I can, so $2k for knuckles/C's/brakes/spindles/hubs is way high. As I said, you can grab a d60 from the wrecker, complete for $150. Our wreckers here are strange. It's the one place where Canada has a distinct price advantage. Any axle, $150 complete. So right there, I've got a complete 9 inch and a complete 60 to work with. For the rear (which would be my first project), I'd just cut off the outer flanges from both axles, shorten the 9 inch tubes to wherever they need to be, then weld on the 60 flanges bolt on the spindles/hubs/brakes, and throw some shafts in. Assuming I can find a 60 with good spindles/hubs, I'm $300 in for both axles, $900 for 35 spline 4340 shafts, and $300 for a locker. That's also assuming a good 9 inch third, but a new third is only $400 complete so it's barely worth mentioning.
Yea, I've watched lots of 609 builds progress and watched their numbers, but most guys doing these are using all new aftermarket components. $600 per unit bearing, $400 for a set of flanges, that shit adds up real fast. I've had ridiculously good luck with junkyard builds though and I build for trail ability as opposed to highway bling. Yea, those $600 uni's are sweet, but so beyond overkill for my little Jeep that I couldn't possibly justify the expense.

The front is definitely more involved, but even there I'd be doing things cheaper than most guys. Certainly not spending $2000 for the spidertrax knuckles. They're sweet as hell, but just looking around at some high pressure oilfield flanges, I'm pretty confident I could come up with a very similar knuckle/flange set for under $500 (not including KP's). The rear axle I'm confident I can build for well under $2000. The front, I just don't know. Don't have enough experience to judge it well, which is why I'd start with the rear and see where it goes from there.

I may very well end up picking up a 9" and just running it, just to see how it holds up. Given my rear 44 hasn't broke yet, I'd be pretty confident in a stock 9". Only issue is that with the 9", I'd have to get custom shafts made with 5x4.5 pattern, and that's a bit over a grand. Then if I decide I really want the full floater, I've just wasted a grand on something I probably can't sell for $50. Thus, I'd be more inclined to just spend the money on a FF build and invest in some 8 lug wheels (which'll match the front end regardless of what option I go with).

That's the other thing. Wheel pattern has to be a consideration from the beginning through to the final product. If I decide a stock 9" is sufficient, I still have to either spend money on custom shafts for the rear to match the front which would be either ford 8 bolt, or Jeep 5 bolt. Decision really has to be made at the beginning.


All that ranting aside, for the guys running stock 9" and/or stock 44's, what size shoes are you running, how long you running it, and how hard do you wheel?

 

[blistovmhz]

To add to the above my 9" is a strange 3rd (largest bearings offered) and a big bearing 35 spline with discs. Plenty for what I'll need. When building axles there are always what if's and Idk's but at the end of the day you're going to do what you need/want anyway.

Yea, absolutely agree. I'm not married to any idea yet. Trying to find the most appropriate plan for my rig. I beat the hell out of it, but the 44/30 combo has held up very well aside from 30 uni's and BJ's every other year. I have absolute confident in the shafts, housings, r&p, and u-joints to hold up as far as I want them (on 35's), but the Uni's are already a problem. On 37's, my trust would go way down.

What'd you do for wheel pattern for the 9", and what size shoes are you running, and how hard to you beat on it, and what's your rig weigh?

 

[Boostwerks.com]

A 9" will more than likely give you more issues than what you already have, unless you build the hell out of it.

If you'd ask me for advice I would tell you to keep what you have. Good unit bearings and ball joints should last a long time even when abused. Far too many people upgrade for all the wrong reasons.

 

[blistovmhz]

A 9" will more than likely give you more issues than what you already have, unless you build the hell out of it.

If you'd ask me for advice I would tell you to keep what you have. Good unit bearings and ball joints should last a long time even when abused. Far too many people upgrade for all the wrong reasons.

As I said, I'm getting about three wheeling trips out of a set of moog BJ's, while the AlloyUSA ones seem to be getting about 2 years to a set. Timken unis are lasting around 9-12 months per set. It's not a big deal to replace those at that rate, but they also limit me on tire size and I feel like to make them survive at all in the big stuff, I'm toning things down a few notches on occasion.

eg: there's a trail called "Fuct" out here, and it's named by reputation. It's not a ridiculous trail. Call it a mild/moderate trail for a well built buggy on 40's. Nearly everyone who attempts it on 35's simply fails, has to winch several sections, and breaks at least a few u-joints or bends a few drive shafts. This is a 1-10 hour trail for most guys on 35's. On 37's with mad driving skills, around 30% of guys can clear the trail without serious damage in about 15 - 30 minutes. The other 70% still bust joints, shred tires, lose drive shafts, etc. Incredible drivers with extremely well built rigs on 37's can do it in 5-7 minutes.
By the time you get into 39's, the trail is fairly mild so long as you take it very carefully.
That said, I made it through in about 40 minutes on my first try, on 35's. I took the hardest lines, so I wasn't surprised when I had to winch myself out once. But, that's 40 minutes vs. the roughly 10 it should take, assuming you aren't worried about breaking stuff.

My first time seeing the trail, I walked up it about 100ft and found 3 Jeeps (all running locked 35's). All three with broken u-joints, drive shafts, uni's, and somehow someone had broken off a caliper. That's on stockish 30/8.25, so no surprises, but I definitely had to take it very mellow on my first run, and I just wasn't super confident about not breaking stuff. Get stuck there, you're screwed. It's 4' boulders in every direction. Even with a 12k lbs winch, getting out takes all day, assuming you're still capable of rolling. I just want to be build to the point where I'm not worried about getting completely screwed in a situation where I can't winch out .



But, why do you say a 9" will give me more issues than a rear 44?

 

[clean4drxj]

In stock form he's saying it's not much of an upgrade. But there is a large aftermarket following the 9" because when built are stout axles.

 

[blistovmhz]

What are the weak points on a stock 9 inch, compared to an XJ 44?

 

[Boostwerks.com]

Here's my perspective:

- How often are you going to run that trail? If you foresee yourself wanting to rock up it like a KOH badass with an ego to spare, then it becomes more "wise" to build yourself some bigger axles along with bigger rubber. I just don't see the point of spending $5,000-$10,000 like many do so they can walk up the gnarliest trail in their area once a year. All of that extra beef becomes pointless on lesser trails.

- If you'd simply like to get through it alive, keep the 35's, the axles you have and just build and wheel smart. With full case lockers, chromos, good ball joints (I've had good luck with XRF's) and decent wheel bearings (Check the torque after every other run or so) the majority of people will have no issues. Sure you might have to winch or get a tug in certain spots compared to that dude with his billion dollar 42's, but who cares. After all everyone loves to see an underdog pull off the impossible.

Obviously, In the end it's all about $ and how much your willing to dish out. It's just painful watching people go broke for no reason. Not only do you need to think about the $, but all the labor involved as well. All of the forums are full of people who invest their life savings into projects that just end up onto craigslist.

A junkyard 9" will require a lot of aftermarket parts to make it worth the swap. The factory dropouts are crap as well. You'd be better off hacking up a 14 bolt if your looking to do it on the cheap.

 

[blistovmhz]

I've never heard of the stub shafts on the 30's backing off or requiring re-torquing. Do they? That could be my problem right there. I've never thought to check them until the bearing has separated.
If I could find a way to make my 30 uni's reliable for at least a year, without having to worry about them exploding while I'm in the middle of wheeling into a bad decision, I'd just keep wheelin' what I've got. Same goes with the BJ's. I generally check them every two months but I've sorta let it slide for a while because I just don't wanna know they need to be replaced again . Thus far, in a bit over a year on the AlloyUSA BJ's, I haven't noticed them loosening off, but I've also stepped up my wheeling a tonne in the past few months.
I know that my passenger uni that I replaced 2 months ago, is already toast. Noticed it last night.

I suppose this right here (above) is what it comes down to. If I can be confident that uni's and BJ's will survive 2 years, or even 1 year if I'm VERY confident they won't fly apart on the road when I'm not expecting it, I'm pretty happy with my setup. Unless I decide to go to 37's... Which I may have to, in order to keep up with the roomie's truck (he just got 38x15.5's, but I think I'm still winning on the rocks and climbs).


I agree with you in principle entirely. I give friends shit constantly, for wanting to upgrade stuff that simply isn't anywhere near necessary for their level of wheeling. At the same time, it's hard for me to really know what's overkill for my wheeling, because I've done tonnes of trails that I was told my rig couldn't possibly survive. I don't know how much is luck, how much is skill/paranoia, and as I never break stuff, I really don't know the limits of my setup. EVERYONE up here thinks I'm crazy to wheel the way I do with my setup. Most guys didn't believe me about completing "Fuct" in 40 minutes until they saw the video, and even then, many accused me of editing out the parts where "he must have had to winch through there". .

That's sorta what's driving the axle upgrade question to begin with. Just not knowing the limits of my setup, but knowing damn well that a pair of 609's are well beyond anything I'm going to encounter here, and knowing that a pair of 60's or 14b is just massively overkill. Just don't have enough experience breaking stuff.

Currently running chromoly shafts with 760's (cause driveline fuse), lunchboxes, 4.56, on 35's, being driven by around 350hp. I stomp on it on the street often, but never during climbs (cause completely unnecessary). I do a lot of fairly high speed trails, and I strongly suspect that's where I'm blowing up uni's (ie: smashing into stumps and boulders at 50km/h, and yea, i know that's way too fast to be wheeling but it's damn hard to not use that skinny pedal when the trail opens up).

 

[clean4drxj]

I would dump the lunchbox in the 30 for a selectable and run with that. The only reason I went with an hp44/9combo is they were tossed in my lap for free. Otherwise I would've stuck with my hp30/44 combo that I was building originally.