Another "what front axle should I run" thread.

[blistovmhz]

Why selectable? I feel like if anything in the driveline is goona let loose, it'll be the 760 joints. Besides which, given how hard I've beat on it, I'm fairly confident in all the driveline stuff. It's the Uni's and BJ's that worry me most.

 

[yossarian19]

If you are going 9", consider going Grand National 9". They are made in a variety of widths and bolt patterns, though usually 5x5 (not idea) but it's a full floating ford 9" with 11.75" disc brakes. Speedway Motors is your friend. This might be a dumb idea, or an awesome one.
If it's BJ's and bearings that are wearing out on you, a '44 would be a good move. Add drive slugs instead of hubs & I bet you'd be real happy with it.

 

[blistovmhz]

If you are going 9", consider going Grand National 9". They are made in a variety of widths and bolt patterns, though usually 5x5 (not idea) but it's a full floating ford 9" with 11.75" disc brakes. Speedway Motors is your friend. This might be a dumb idea, or an awesome one.
If it's BJ's and bearings that are wearing out on you, a '44 would be a good move. Add drive slugs instead of hubs & I bet you'd be real happy with it.

So... That grand national looks like a very good/very cheap start. What do they use for outers though? Not finding a lot of data on them. It'd be rad if they came with, or were flanged for something big enough for my rig (though I really doubt they are).
Also, those rotors just don't look like they'd hold up, but I've no idea. Know anyone who's put one under a crawler?

That's the thing though. You can get a brand new fabbed 9" 1/4" thick housing with tubes for around $500-$700. I really can't see any other axle competing dollar for dollar, for a rig that doesn't quite need 60/14b beef.

As for the 44, it's still on the table. Roomie's housing cracked at the passenger tube, so he picked up the last housing in the area and it's in the garage, probably waiting for ME to go assemble it for MY ROOMMATE. Lazy kid. But, when I'm done, I'll have most of a 44 to play with, and since it'll no longer be under the truck, I don't mind experimenting with it (ie: learning to weld cast to mild to fix the housing/tube). I may end up with a perfectly good 44 housing and most of the outers for nothing, so it's definitely a consideration for the front.

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

truth is... is for looking to build an axle from scratch, its pricey. youll be better off buying someones used axles rather than building them. now mind you... it gets pretty hard to find what you want. but thats where patience is key and networking is a must.

concerning a front 9", im a big proprietor for them, if its the last axle your ever going to build for that rig... same goes for a 60. because by the time you pimp out a 44, the biggest difference in price between it and a 60 or 9 is the housing itself, and in the grand scheme of things, its a fraction of the total cost. keep in mind, by the time you buy a housing, third member with all the goodies, shafts, brackets, and put Cs on the housing, your in the ball park of simply buying a built axle like a rock jock or currie 9. dont think, "i have outers, so im saving a ton of money!" because rebuilding things with new bearings, seals, BJs, and so on, will absolutely nickel and dime you over what you thought your budget was. then there are specialty tools for setting up gears, welding, etc so the question becomes... do you want to build something, move slowly, while acquiring tools and such, or do you want to slap something you know work in your jeep and go play. there are arguments to be made on both sides... but it comes down to what your capable of, and what your time is worth to you.

 

[rockclimber]

for 37"s a D60 is the smart choice.

 

[blistovmhz]

truth is... is for looking to build an axle from scratch, its pricey. youll be better off buying someones used axles rather than building them. now mind you... it gets pretty hard to find what you want. but thats where patience is key and networking is a must.

concerning a front 9", im a big proprietor for them, if its the last axle your ever going to build for that rig... same goes for a 60. because by the time you pimp out a 44, the biggest difference in price between it and a 60 or 9 is the housing itself, and in the grand scheme of things, its a fraction of the total cost. keep in mind, by the time you buy a housing, third member with all the goodies, shafts, brackets, and put Cs on the housing, your in the ball park of simply buying a built axle like a rock jock or currie 9. dont think, "i have outers, so im saving a ton of money!" because rebuilding things with new bearings, seals, BJs, and so on, will absolutely nickel and dime you over what you thought your budget was. then there are specialty tools for setting up gears, welding, etc so the question becomes... do you want to build something, move slowly, while acquiring tools and such, or do you want to slap something you know work in your jeep and go play. there are arguments to be made on both sides... but it comes down to what your capable of, and what your time is worth to you.

I hear this a lot, and I get where you're coming from, but here's my retort.

* I have most of the tools required. Only thing's I'd be missing would be 9 inch specific, and I can't think of anything there.
* I fabricate anything that can be fabricated. When I run into something that needs machining, that's where I break out the wallet. Bracketry and trusses and stuff I don't even factor into my cost because steel ain't expensive and I enjoy doing the work myself.
* Finding well built axles up here will probably never happen. Any that are around are store bought and will never be sold. I have started looking in the US, but even if I found what I was looking for, it'd have to be a screamin deal for me to give up building my own. Building/hacking stuff is half the point of wheeling for me.
* The main differences between a 60 and a 609 for me, are the pumpkin clearance and the weight. The 60 is enormously heavy, and to get the clearance I have back, I'd need to run 37's, even with a substantial shave. I want MORE clearance per tire inch, not less. If I was doing a trailer queen, I'd probably just slap in a 60 because I'd also be running min 38's. But, these (theoretical) axles would be for my DD, and I enjoy my fuel economy. (Also side note, keeping my rig streetable is also a big part of the challenge/fun for me).
* I dunno if I'm lucky or just Jewish as hell, but stuff never costs me anywhere near what I get told. eg: when I was researching my 5.3 swap, Canadian wheelers all told me to have $20k saved up. US wheelers all said to plan on spending at least $6000 (and 2-3 months). I planned for $4000 and spent $3500 or so, and $1000 of that was on a radiator that I didn't really end up using. Luck? Good sourcing? Pure Jew? No idea. I figure I can build myself a rear 609 exactly how I want it, for under $2500 pretty easily. Front, I'm not really sure as I suspect the high pinion third members are a touch expensive . May have to revisit that.

 

[blistovmhz]

Also, I know I come across as argumentative but I hope that doesn't put anyone off. It's just how I roll . It's how I figure shit out and it (usually) seems to work. I appreciate all the input, it's carefully weighed, and I'm learnin' heaps on this thread already. I just know that if I did everything the way 90% of people suggested, I'd either be rollin' in a stock XJ on 31's, or I'd be $50k into my build . At this point, I'm pretty sure I'm well under $10k in, and that includes all the money wasted on bad decisions throughout the build .

Keep it comin'. Any other suggestions for fronts that aren't a 60? I just can't imagine a reason to need more axle than I can carry.

 

[rockclimber]

you should do a front 60 because you said you want to go to 37"s.

there is nothing else. building a 44 would be a waste of time and money. even if you don't do it now, you will eventually lose interest and go with bigger tires.

you either run a 44, and have an axle that isn't really ideal for that size tire, or you run a 60.

this is why 37"s are a bastard size tire. any drivetrain setup to run 37"s reliably will be strong enough to run 39"s. anything less and you might as well stay on 35"s.

 

[blistovmhz]

you should do a front 60 because you said you want to go to 37"s.

there is nothing else. building a 44 would be a waste of time and money. even if you don't do it now, you will eventually lose interest and go with bigger tires.

you either run a 44, and have an axle that isn't really ideal for that size tire, or you run a 60.

this is why 37"s are a bastard size tire. any drivetrain setup to run 37"s reliably will be strong enough to run 39"s. anything less and you might as well stay on 35"s.

If that's the case, wouldn't it make sense to build a front 609, if just to save a tonne of weight? I haven't seen a lot of 44 housing failures, so I assume it's mostly the outers and the R&P that fail yea?

Also, the roomies K1500 has a front 44, and the only issues we've had with it on 37's or 38's (and he drives like a retard), is chewing through bearings, but we figure that's probably just due to all the bad seal surfaces letting in water/sand.

 

[rockclimber]

609s are no doubt strong. but the time and money you will spend on it will be significant and you won't really gain any strength over a straight 60.

its all about your wheeling style. the information is out there, only you can decide if the terrain you wheel or the style in which you do it warrants tons.

IMO if you have to ask, then you already know the answer.

 

[blondejoncherokee]

I spent more money build my hp44 then I should have building it . I could have built a hp60 for less, I have a hp60 now , 35 spline, hydro assist, 5.38s, etc. the piece of mind is nice. but its heavy as hell. I honestly think my MJ on 30/44 and 33s could probably follow my XJ on one tons and 40s through most ,if not all, trails

that being said,

my vote is to keep the 30 up front, build up the 30 to handle 35s , build a 44 or a 9" for the rear, and call it done, and spend your money on gas and your time in the seat.

 

[blistovmhz]

I spent more money build my hp44 then I should have building it . I could have built a hp60 for less, I have a hp60 now , 35 spline, hydro assist, 5.38s, etc. the piece of mind is nice. but its heavy as hell. I honestly think my MJ on 30/44 and 33s could probably follow my XJ on one tons and 40s through most ,if not all, trails

that being said,

my vote is to keep the 30 up front, build up the 30 to handle 35s , build a 44 or a 9" for the rear, and call it done, and spend your money on gas and your time in the seat.

Front 30 is already as built as it can be for the 35's. Again, the only issue I run into is with the Uni's separating after 2-12 months. Confirmed last night that both sides are bad again, and I just replaced the passenger side 2-3 months ago. Everything else is tip top.
Rear I'm not really concerned with on 35's (built 44). Only issue I had with it was the outer seals leaking on the stock shafts, but new shafts with clean journals fixed that. I suppose I'm also not happy about the rear braking situation. For some reason I just haven't managed to get the KJ rear to work well and I don't know if I've got a problem with the MC, or if it's just that the front WJ calipers use LESS fluid than the rear. That was actually another consideration for building new axles. Spend more money on the rear brakes now, or just put that money towards a build.

Yea, I've never had a problem keeping up with anyone on tonnes. It's really just a matter of 30 uni's, and i'm stuck at 35" shoes, period.

 

[blondejoncherokee]

Stock up on unit bearings. They can be had for cheap. Are you over or under torquing them ? Just buy like 6-8 sets of unit bearings and be done

 

[yossarian19]

Front hub conversion? I think Cal runs a KOTH car with WJ knucles and calipers, CJ rotors & Warn hubs. I could have that all twisted, though - so look it up. Would get you down to easily serviced & cheaply replaced roller bearings up front. If you don't want to jump out of the Jeep and turn the hubs, you could install drive slugs & call your Frankenaxle done.

EDIT: Nevermind. Probably a stupid way to spend $1200.

 

[rockclimber]

Front hub conversion? I think Cal runs a KOTH car with WJ knucles and calipers, CJ rotors & Warn hubs. I could have that all twisted, though - so look it up. Would get you down to easily serviced & cheaply replaced roller bearings up front. If you don't want to jump out of the Jeep and turn the hubs, you could install drive slugs & call your Frankenaxle done.

EDIT: Nevermind. Probably a stupid way to spend $1200.

Cal's car isn't running CJ rotors, but yea they have a hub converstion. the "large hub kit" from yukon.

I run the small hub kit from Warn. wouldn't really make much difference if his problem is bearings.

OP you need to figure out why you are killing bearings. there are thousands of rigs on dana 30 unit bearings running 35"s and they don't go through them like that.

 

[clean4drxj]

I said selectable because, you need a full case locker to get rid of the stock carrier in the 30 if you want the Ring&pinion to survive. Selectables are nice for making tight turns because you can simply unlock the front diff make that tight turn(instead of multiple smaller turns) and just save time and aggravation.

 

[1990JEEPXJ]

What brand unit bearings are you buying?

 

[blistovmhz]

Tried Uni's from everywhere. The best I've run are the Timken's, which last anywhere from 3-12 months. Everything else seems to last a few wheeling trips at best, some have obvious slop after 10 minutes of street driving .
Axle nut torque is correct every time and never loosens off. I'm on 4.5" BS which shouldn't be a problem. I beat the hell out of the front end, but I'm not at all sure what I SHOULD expect out of my uni's. When I was on 31's, I think I replaced a pair of uni's in 5 years. With 33's, they lasted 2-3 years, and with 35's, a year at absolute most.
I don't believe there's anything wrong with my setup, I think I just beat on it too hard. Like, when other guys on similar sized rigs see me fly past them on stuff they're crawling, I'm sure they think I'm a dick. Roomie's Jeep has the same problem on 33's. He's getting about a year and some out of a set. He also drives like a total dink on the high speed stuff.

I'd considered doing a hub conversion, but yea, $1200 is nuts. For $1200 I can get a 60 up front, completely rebuilt, with new gears and locker, and still have some change for a few sets of spare bearings. It's just the weight and the clearance that'd kill me. I can buy a LOT of uni's for $1200.

 

[VAhasnoWAVES]

Tried Uni's from everywhere. The best I've run are the Timken's, which last anywhere from 3-12 months. Everything else seems to last a few wheeling trips at best, some have obvious slop after 10 minutes of street driving .
Axle nut torque is correct every time and never loosens off. I'm on 4.5" BS which shouldn't be a problem. I beat the hell out of the front end, but I'm not at all sure what I SHOULD expect out of my uni's. When I was on 31's, I think I replaced a pair of uni's in 5 years. With 33's, they lasted 2-3 years, and with 35's, a year at absolute most.
I don't believe there's anything wrong with my setup, I think I just beat on it too hard. Like, when other guys on similar sized rigs see me fly past them on stuff they're crawling, I'm sure they think I'm a dick. Roomie's Jeep has the same problem on 33's. He's getting about a year and some out of a set. He also drives like a total dink on the high speed stuff.

I'd considered doing a hub conversion, but yea, $1200 is nuts. For $1200 I can get a 60 up front, completely rebuilt, with new gears and locker, and still have some change for a few sets of spare bearings. It's just the weight and the clearance that'd kill me. I can buy a LOT of uni's for $1200.

at that price idk why your even debating. yes, unsprung mass is bad... but consider "bad" a relative term. your not racing the thing.

you say your hard on your 30. you also have displacement on your side. you also say you want to run 37s and there is probably the chance of bigger. armed with that knowledge, concensus is that a 44 might not be a good option for ya. a lot of people live a happy life with a 60 under the front of their jeep. worste case scenerio you smack it on things. if you want to build a 609, build a 609. its your money, and it sounds like youve convinced yourself what you want... i personally love 609s. post lots of pictures.

 

[DieselSJ]

Front 30 is already as built as it can be for the 35's. Again, the only issue I run into is with the Uni's separating after 2-12 months. Confirmed last night that both sides are bad again, and I just replaced the passenger side 2-3 months ago.

You definitely have something going on there. We ran the same set of Uni's for 5 full racing seasons. They got pulled and have been on one of the team members XJ for 4+ years now, which is probably 50K miles, with many race course pre-runs. How do they separate? The bearings are sandwiched when installed. I'd say either your stub isn't right (too long) and you aren't getting any preload on them, or you are overtorquing and smashing them.