Wheeling in PA

[wavingpine11]

http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/stateforests/sproulmap.aspx

I wheel on legal state forest land. Road closures are marked with bulldozed earth and paper signs. Do you guys wheel some magical places I don't know of? Or are you just simply not reading what I'm writing? I like this forum quite a bit, but I find it sad when people write things like I'm receiving here. Either point out where I'm wrong, hopefully in a civil fashion, or don't make blanket statements like "If this is truly what you think, then we might as well wave goodbye to what little public wheeling is left in this region of the country." That's not helpful to anyone. I asked a specific question, got opposing answetrs, and made my choice. Does anyone here work for DCNR or PP&L who could provide more than an opinion?

 

[OverlandZJ]

wavingpine11, have you contacted the local rangers and asked them the legality's of the particular area?

EDIT: late to this thread. If i'm reading correctly the issue here is traveling the power line access roads. I have never done so, and i camp close to where were talking about. I 'think" those access roads are technically private property owned by the power co. I have spoken with local rangers in the area, even if the road is ungated and unmarked does not make it legal.... although i used to believe it did. You need to contact the local authorities.

This is a good topic where all of us can learn something. Lets please keep it civil. We all can get heated over this issue, but lets think twice before posting. It wont do anyone any good if it gets deleted.

 

[vetteboy]

Either point out where I'm wrong, hopefully in a civil fashion, or don't make blanket statements like "If this is truly what you think, then we might as well wave goodbye to what little public wheeling is left in this region of the country." That's not helpful to anyone.

It wasn't directed at you anyway. I have no firsthand knowledge of legality of any of the places you're talking about.

What I know for sure though, is that with all the scrutiny placed on the four-wheeling community these days, the mentality of "it's only illegal if you're caught" is a very immature and selfish way to enjoy this hobby.

As far as wheeling in a "magical place" - here's where I've been in the last year and a half.

- Rausch Creek ORV Park, Tremont, PA
- Big Dogs Offroad, Gore, VA
- Tellico NF ORV Area, Murphy, NC
- Wharton State Forest, Atsion, NJ
- Greenwood State Forest and Game Area, Whiting, NJ
- Several private and permission-only areas in western MA
- Several known/documented public right-of-way trails in western MA

The common theme there is that every single place I go, I am 100% sure that I am allowed to be there with a vehicle, and there is no one who will dispute or call into question the legality of it. To wheel in any other circumstances than those is a great way to hasten the closure of even those areas that are currently legal.

If you can claim that about the places you've been going in PA, that's fine. But to say it's only illegal if you're caught there is a very poor approach to this.

 

[wavingpine11]

Vetteboy--"only illegal if caught" is not my mentality. That's why I go to the free and public state forest land. All the forest roads are open to licensed motor vehicles and clearly state that. Anything that is not legally driveable seems to be gated off. Some gates open up for hunting season, and they place paper signs on the gates to let you know that it's open although only seasonally. Given the obviously well-managed use of the gate system, I concluded that where there are no gates on the state forest land, there are no issues with driving there. As I wrote in an earlier post in this thread, a good section of the power line system on the state land is ungated. However, certain sections are. It seems like a pretty clear system to me, but I see where there is hesitiation to embrace this interpretation. So far, however, I have received varying opinions on whether my assumption about those sections of access road. Perhaps the best way to address this IS to ask DCNR rather than anyone here. I thought this would be a good place to share my knowledge of the area with someone who was interested in finding a new place to go, and to bring up an issue for discussion that I had less than perfect knowledge of, but had pieced together an opinion on myself. Let me be clear--I don't trespass on land that asks me not to. If you've driven anywhere in rural PA, you'll see there is no shortage of signs to tell you to get the hell out if you're coming up on private land. That's how people communicate when they're not likely to meet face to face, and I'm a good reader. I find it highly unlikely that if you weren't supposed to be somewhere, that there would be absolutely no signs or gates to tell you so. As I said, DCNR is pretty on top of the area, and I see new signs go up from time to time, but I've never seen any signs go up on the open sections of power line, which, again, are contained by the state land. What I'm presenting is a weak argument in some regards, and perhaps that's why AndyinPA jumped all over me, but my experience in Sproul is that DCNR does an excellent job posting trails off-limits if it sees fit. I'll make it a point to ask a ranger next time I see one, and then I'll post the answer (s)he gives me. Until then, it seems like no one really knows the answer, and that there is considerable resistance to assuming it's OK. I see the politics of that, and I recognize that in times of increasing scrutiny for four wheeling, that playing your politics correctly is the best way to proceed. I think what I was slammed for here was poor assumption politics, not fact. Still, I prefer discussion to shooting matches, so I thank those who have offered that.
eace:

 

[Andy in Pa.]

Andy in PA--I don't think so. I have PA-issued state forest maps that are kindly provided free by the gentleman in the little sporting goods shop in Renovo. Furthermore, there are numerous marked state forest roads (brown signs) littering the areas I wheel in. All I've tried to do is establish whether or not the areas that are both power line access roads AND not gated AND on that state forest land are legal to wheel. Some people have stated that they believe that all such roads are open access. Some people have stated that it's private power line land. I have concluded that those sections of the access roads that are not gated and have no signage to tell you otherwise on what is clearly state forest land are OK for me to wheel unless I hear otherwise from DCNR or a PP&L representative who happens to be out doing his thing at the same time. I'm sorry that you feel like dishing out such hostility over the issue. We are not talking about anyone's front yard, nor their back yard. We are talking about subsections of state forest land. Whether that section is technically Sproul or Susquenhannock, perhaps you know better than me. Whether there are totally legal state forest roads going through both of them is not up for dispute, it is mere fact. If you noticed, I suggested legal state forest land which I find rewarding to wheel on, then also noted the power lines, and asked if anyone knew what the status of those lines was. I have concluded, for myself, that in the absence of any other information, all open roads in state forest land are ok for me to drive on. Also, I don't take attempted murder lightly. If someone shoots at me while on public land, a situation I've yet to encounter while peacefully enjoying nature, I will shoot back in justified self-defense. But thank you for your heavy handed reply, and your attempt to single-handedly speak for the whole community here, some of whom seem to take an opposite view. If you could fit it in your schedule, I usually prefer discussion to verbal attacks. Communities usually benefit more from peaceful interactions than from shootings, whether it be shooting your mouth or your firearm.

Maybe I did come down a little heavy, but first you talk about irresponsible wheeling (getting stuck/going somewhere that you shouldn't be in an ill-equipped vehicle ON STATE FOREST LAND). This by itself leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it looks bad for the offroad community.

Then, you talk about irresponsible wheeling AGAIN by saying that you don't know if its legal or not to be on the land your on, but you'll do it anyway because you see no signs. There are places to research this info and you can always ask a forest ranger.

And lastly, it is irresponsible wheeling to be going out by yourself, without a second vehicle. If you get stuck, it can be a very long walk to find help.

Hence my comment about learning the hard way.... as many of us have...

I have driven miles and miles of the state forest roads up there (the ones clearly marked/traveled) and done lots of exploring off of it too.
What I am trying to say is I have done what you are doing (and in the same area that your doing it in) and if it is PA state forest land, it is not legal. Many people (even up there) see the legalness of this land as a gray area for the same reasons that you have stated. I happen to know one of the game wardens in that area (he is a family friend) and after asking him about this issue (a few years ago now) he basically said you can play the "I didn't see any signs" bit the first time if your stopped by a forest ranger, but if you get a warning (you really need to be a jerk or are doing something really stupid) , you better not get stopped by him again.

As I have gotten older, I have learned to be proactive about exploring in "questionable" areas and scouted out (walked) areas that I wanted to explore, then stopped and talked to the forest rangers (there was only 3 in that area a few years ago, don't know how many there is now though), and have gotten away with doing LOTS of exploring with my XJ by discussing these areas with them first. Most do not bother you if you have properly equipped vehicles (most on this forum know who I am and can tell you that I have a properly equipped vehicle...), and they realize that your not some snot-nosed kid going out bashing through the woods.

And technically, your a "Flatlander". I can't tell you how many times I have been called that by the locals up there.

I am usually very easy to get along with (as most here will tell you). If you want to discuss this further, I welcome you to come out and go wheeling with our group at RC. We have Nac-Fest coming up, and many of us put together small runs (like mrshaft696 is doing right now) throughout the year.

A.

 

[wavingpine11]

I took the trouble to pose this question to DCNR at this web address: http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/email.aspx. My question addressed the issue of recreational 4-wheeling in Sproul State forest, and I specifically asked about the run of power line access roads which begin at the top of Pete's run, which overlooks Renovo bfore twisting around the mountain. I noted that there are private cabins if you take the first stretch of access road you encounter from Pete's run, and stated that it seemed like it must be open access since that tiny stretch leads to private land. I then asked if the other open access roads were also legally drivable. I'm waiting to hear back from DCNR and will post the response I get as soon as I get it. If they include my e-mail in the reply, I will post that as well. I don't have that to offer here since I sent an e-mail by typing in an HTML form and it was gone when I hit the back button.

AndyinPA--First off, I'm not one to hold a grudge, and I'm glad that this exchange has returned to a more conversational tone, so no hard feelings. I think I understand what set you off, and I'm willing to shake it off. True enough, that time I went up Pete's run in my ill-equipped Passport was foolish. I was still on a legal state forest road, that I'm 100% sure of, but stupidly so. There were "travel at your own risk due to no winter maintenance" signs posted, and I learned from that experience and come much more well-equipped these days. It was the first 4wd I ever owned and Sproul was the first place I took it. It was a long cold walk off the mountain indeed, but fortunately, there were a few people who were willing to help me out. They let me borrow a set of snow chains after they pulled my front tire out of the ditch with the help of a come-along and that was all it took to get me home again. The reason I got stuck in the ditch was because it seemed way safer to ride close to the mountain rather than the edge of the road--a nice steep drop-off. In retrospect, sure, I should have been better equipped in the first place and I have no qualms admitting that. Usually my girlfriend and I go wheeling together now in separate vehicles. She's got an 01XJ riding on 33x12.5 mudders with a 6 inch lift. So the story I related was a "learning the hard way/inexperience of youth" story and no more. I've learned a lot by filtering through all of the information available here at , will continue to in the future, and hopefully my actions will reflect that.

Now for the second issue you raised--no signage so good to go--that's proven to be politically dicey, so I sent the query to DCNR to help clarify this for both myself and everyone else here. I felt I was standing on pretty solid ground with that because of how well DCNR manages the forest and their signs/gates. But I'm waiting to hear it from the horse's mouth as I write this.

But let me be very clear one last time about the land use issue, the only gray area I have been on is the power line. I believed that it was legal at the time, due to lack of signage and gates, which are plentiful in other sections of the forest as well as the access roads further north on the same run of line. But everything else is clearly marked on the Sproul maps, and at each trail head there are signs saying that legal on-road vehcles are allowed, but not in most cases ATV's (they have their own designated trails). Currently (I was there over Christmas break) there are signs up for joint usage of a number of sections by highway-legal vehicles (at your own risk) and snowmobiles. I'm not up there blazing new trails or dodging gates or doing anything that I think is illegal. That is why I started asking about what people thought/knew about the issue in the first place. After getting conflicting replies, I decided that if DCNR or PP&L didn't want me there, they would communicate that in some way. On state land, it seemed like a very reasonable approach since they seem to waste no time in posting where they don't want you to be in my experience.

I'll keep on the lookout for organized trail runs that would be convenient for me to attend. The reason I run Sproul almost exclusively is that my mom lives right there, and I often end up at her place when I get my daughter for the weekend, who lives about an hour away from there with her mom.

Stay tuned for the official DCNR reponse! They claim to respond within a day or two, and I think they'll be interested in replying to my question.

--wavingpine11

 

[wavingpine11]

Update: No response from DCNR yet. How dull.

 

[hoagiexj]

used to live in Schuylkill county...man I used to love ridin around those mountains...still make it up once in a while to see the family and friends and to test out the XJ's 4x4.....

(removed all power line references)

 

[C.Semprini]

anything out east, Lehigh Valley Allentown area?

 

[bandit455]

anything in the chester county area?

 

[jeannies_driver]

anything in the chester county area?

nope,, that's why we travel 1.5 hour's to RC to wheel. private land yes, if you can find it.

i only have one thing to offer to this. at any point in your travel's, if you can't look at a map, a GPS or compass and know exactly where you are or if it's legal,,, your trespassing and that's EXACTLY how it need's to be thought of.

it doesn't matter if you walked or drove, it's all the same. the driving part however will end up as " State Forest New Illegal Offroading Playground " and right on the front page. The hiking part will be buried 8 page's back and 3 line's that state " a man was found to be trespassing in a closed section of state forest " on the local police report.

just because there might not be a gate or a sign does not mean you are not on private property. perfect example,,my family has 550 acre's in northern Pa. the logging road's and driveway use to be the local township road. they are not road's anymore and closed to everyone except those using the property. it is not gated, why, because it's their driveway. the deed's to the road and the land were turned over 10 year's ago to the previous property owner's. it's 1 mile long, has 4 other cabin's on it,, and each one of them own's their share of the road,, and nothing about it is public, but it sure exist's on state map's and has a name.

i've literally had people stand there 1/2 mile into the property itself, till they were blue in the face, screaming they were allowed to be in a certain spot cause they know it's a township road and this or that and bubba own's property back here and so on. right up to the point where the state trooper or PGC officer show's up to remove and fine them.

the only person your kidding is yourself with the " if it's not gated it's fair game " speach. it's your responsibility in PA to know the law's, and you will be held accountable even if you don't,, it's not their fault. it's also your responsibility to know where you wheel and it's legality also, BEFORE going there, not after.

the old " it's better to ask forgiveness than permission " doesn't work for us on the issue's at hand, nor the general public.

 

[tyspier]

if its not gated? nahhh, its 'if its not posted, its fair game'
and thats the law, you gotta have a posted sign every 10 feet

 

[wavingpine11]

OK, so I decided to actually put in a call to the district forest service today since they never returned my e-mail. I talked to the secretary, who then referred me to a ranger (didn't catch his name--my bad), to whom I posed the question of whether or not the ungated power line trail was legal to drive, and pointed out that the northernmost section of one part of said access road leads to private land. The man I spoke to, who was familiar with the exact location I was referring to, said that that small section of power line access road was considered a driveable trail by the state since it goes to private land, but that the other sections, going nowhere in particular, were not open, despite not being gated. He says there are supposed to be signs there. . . even though I've never seen any in the six or seven years I've been up there.

So that's it for the legality of the power line road in Sproul, straight from the ranger's mouth--power lines are not fair game for wheeling, but the marked state forest roads are.

Even without the power line roads, Sproul offers a good deal of really nice legal driveable trails, lest we forget that the original topic was where are there legal places to wheel in central PA. So I'll still enjoy my time there, even if some of the more challenging climbs are inaccessible for legal reasons. That still leaves all the other fun spots I've been to, of which there are plenty to fill up a weekend. But it's funny how much opinion can be thrown around without anyone actually asking the proper authority on the subject to settle the matter.

Tyspier, I'm not sure of the law on posting land, but I will say that in my central and more recently PA experience, all private land is covered by an incredible number of signs--people make it clear they don't want you there. One big yellow or white posted sign after another. There's a state forest road called Dry Run Road out there the branches off Rt 120 leading up into the state forest. and some clever fellows have placed "Posted" signs all around it, in what appears to be an attempt to discourage people from driving the legal forest road their land adjoins. But anyway, I've seen no shortage of posted signs where the land is private. Jeannies_driver, if the land you're talking about isn't posted "No Trespassing," since it's a former county road that appears on maps, then I suggest putting up signs. If I have a map that's issued by the govenrment, and it says I can be there, I assume my map is correct. I've never driven down a road that asked me not to, and that situation sounds retardedly ambiguous, at best, if no attempt has been made to communicate its private status besides verbal say-so.

It's always so refreshing to hit the state land that you can actually drive on/through without having to be inundated by reminders that the politics of "mine" run this world. The days of belonging to the land instead of the other way 'round died with the Native Americans that the government officials of the time kindly wrapped in smallpox contaminated blankets. But I'm very glad the state and national park system is in place, even if we don't have a totally free run of the land in our 4x4's. I'm sure the Pine Barrens folks would agree with me there, and the many other people who wheel legally on public land.

 

[OverlandZJ]

But it's funny how much opinion can be thrown around without anyone actually asking the proper authority on the subject to settle the matter.

There's a state forest road called Dry Run Road out there the branches off Rt 120 leading up into the state forest.

I did ask, and thats how i knew about some ungated/unposted roads being off limits. My bud and i even attempted to gain access to some of these roads to make a legal camp which we promised to maintain. The local rangers know us and our Jeeps, we have had good relationships with them for awhile now. They even know our "regular" spot and did some improvements for us like plant a few trees for future shade. We toss down grass seed in the summer to keep it from becoming worn and muddy.

I'm familiar with Dry Run, i camp pretty close to it off 44.

 

[Andy in Pa.]

I did ask, and thats how i knew about some ungated/unposted roads being off limits. My bud and i even attempted to gain access to some of these roads to make a legal camp which we promised to maintain. The local rangers know us and our Jeeps, we have had good relationships with them for awhile now. They even know our "regular" spot and did some improvements for us like plant a few trees for future shade. We toss down grass seed in the summer to keep it from becoming worn and muddy.

I'm familiar with Dry Run, i camp pretty close to it off 44.

Your fairly close to Kettle Creek up there John, I have done some good trout fishing in that little stream.

That has been my point all along, ask and you'll find out for sure, like some of us already have. You will have those folks that will put signs up anyway, but if you ask a forest ranger and find out its OK, then the signs are not to be trusted.

 

[wavingpine11]

That has been my point all along, ask and you'll find out for sure, like some of us already have. You will have those folks that will put signs up anyway, but if you ask a forest ranger and find out its OK, then the signs are not to be trusted.

Point well taken, Andy. I can see now why you responded the way you did initially, even if the tone was not to my liking. So to everyone who has shown that they are concerned with keeping a good public image and called me on my misconception, thanks. I really was skeptical that open roads on state land would be off-limits to travel for all the reasons I stated earlier. I thought the reason that every other power line roads I'd ever encountered were gated but these were not was simply because the power company didn't have the right to limit access to state land that their lines happened to pass through. Glad I asked. Thanks also to the OP for catalyzing this discussion.

 

[OverlandZJ]

Your fairly close to Kettle Creek up there John, I have done some good trout fishing in that little stream.

That has been my point all along, ask and you'll find out for sure, like some of us already have. You will have those folks that will put signs up anyway, but if you ask a forest ranger and find out its OK, then the signs are not to be trusted.

Yep, also the famous Slate Run.

I'll actually be looking further west in the SF for some more camping op's, they did some logging behind my area and i'm not sure if it'll still be desirable to me again. There was an area i drove through last year, i want to find it again.

 

[wavingpine11]

. . .they did some logging behind my area and i'm not sure if it'll still be desirable to me again. There was an area i drove through last year, i want to find it again.

Logging. I like the signs they put up for that. They say something to the effect about preserving the health of the forest. Here's how they preserve it: they fence off an area, put up signs that say they are keeping the forest healthy, then they clear cut the entire area inside the fence. So far, I haven't been too impressed with the "forest protection through logging" program up there. It's ugly. It's not a thinning or otherwise quasi-preservationist operation at all. The one I ran into that really disgusted me was at the bottom of one of the connectors to Barney's Ridge Road (which itself heads west off of 144, south of Renovo). I guess another clever way to preserve the forest would be to burn it down? It looks like someone already tried that up in that section anyway. . . Are the loggers required to plant new trees at least after they've turned perectly healthy forest into an expansive mud pit with no undergowth? It doesn't look like tread lightly principles apply to industry.

 

[OverlandZJ]

Logging. I like the signs they put up for that. They say something to the effect about preserving the health of the forest. Here's how they preserve it: they fence off an area, put up signs that say they are keeping the forest healthy, then they clear cut the entire area inside the fence. So far, I haven't been too impressed with the "forest protection through logging" program up there. It's ugly. It's not a thinning or otherwise quasi-preservationist operation at all. The one I ran into that really disgusted me was at the bottom of one of the connectors to Barney's Ridge Road (which itself heads west off of 144, south of Renovo). I guess another clever way to preserve the forest would be to burn it down? It looks like someone already tried that up in that section anyway. . . Are the loggers required to plant new trees at least after they've turned perectly healthy forest into an expansive mud pit with no undergowth? It doesn't look like tread lightly principles apply to industry.

They didnt do a clearcut. They cut and drag certain trees, which they had marked with orange paint. They hit the area behind this camp before and did the same thing.

The workers built us a great firepit though.... best one i'v ever come across built with large slabs of rock that they uncover during the logging.

 

[wavingpine11]

They didnt do a clearcut. They cut and drag certain trees, which they had marked with orange paint. They hit the area behind this camp before and did the same thing.

The workers built us a great firepit though.... best one i'v ever come across built with large slabs of rock that they uncover during the logging.

Are we talking about the same spot? I'll have to check it out next time I'm up there. The spot I ran into looked like a clear cut in progress. It was kind of depressing to be driving through the woods and then hit that. Next time I'm out with my daughter (she's got a digital camera), I'll take pictures of the "forest preservation" and post them if the area is how I remember it. That's pretty sweet about the fire pit though. Since we're all wearing our straight and narrow suits now, is camping even allowed in the forest? I know you can camp in spots like the Heiner campsite, but you seem to be suggesting a more of a "find a spot and pitch a tent" approach. Can you get a permit to do that, or is it generally permitted? I've been to a lot of great spots that I've thought about staying on the less-traveled side roads, but I wasn't sure if you were allowed. Some of them I worry about sharing with rattlesnakes, anyway, since on that side (south) of the Susquehanna there seems to be a lot of rocks that they'd like to crawl under, ranging from fist to truck size. Larry, one of the local guys who helped me off Pete's Run that one fateful winter, always carries a "snake gun." He seems pretty convinced that your chances of running into one are high. He cuts wood for part of his living.