**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

[goodburbon]

You might want to hook it up to a power source and plum it into the intake, just the water sitting under the hood isn't going to do anything! :doh:

One more thing who said that they are getting .8 ohms of resistance? You did when you claimed a current flow of 15 A I couldn't get a multi-meter to read it.

EXACTLY

I was being a bit facetious with the "bucket" thing, I'll actually put a hydrogen cell similar to yours.:roll:

Since the car I am trying it on nromally gets between 27.5-30 mpg I'll consider anything over that positive results.

 

[GSequoia]

You have an excellent point. Is the 15 amp draw from the HHO generator really gonna effect much? Just for the sake of argument, lets say that my altenator is rated for 55 amps at 1800rpm. If the total amps needed to run the vehcile's electricals and charge the battery is 40, isn't the altenator producing 15 amps that aren't doing anything productive? So if I add a 15 amp draw, I'm not forcing any extra work on the system.

Is this logical?

No, it's not.

Just because an alternator is rated at 55 amps and 1800 doesn't mean it pushes 55 amps at 1800 all the time, it only pushes that on request, and when you request it it gets harder to turn that little wheel on the end of the alternator thus using more engine power to produce that extra power.

 

[Ecomike]

Goodburbon and Irainman,

What are you guys using material wise for the electrodes, and what is the the surface area of both sides and the distance between the electrodes? Also plate shape? I noticed the HHO bottle site, showing some kind of wire, instead of large flat plates.

Something else occured to me today, on the ohm meter question.

Goodburbon, when you get yours built, please test the ohms immediately after adding the water and sodium bicarbonate. Then again after running current through it for say 30 minutes, recheck the ohms again, in both directions. In fact test it for cell volatge, before and after running current through it the fiirst time, before trying to measure ohms. You should find a voltage potential across the plates if the plate area is different from the two sides, or if the electrode material is different on the two sides, but especially after the first time you run power through it for say 1/2 hour, it should act like a battery afterwards, to some extent.

Some of the less noble metal will move from one plate to the other, and one side may oxidize some, thus changing the exposed metal alloy surface alloy on the two sides (more zinc on one side than the other for instance), and thus creating an electric potential difference. This could also affect trying to measure the resistance. You can't get a true measurement of the resistance across a regular battery with an standard ohm meter. In fact trying to measure the resistance of a 12 volt lead acid battery, may blow the fuse inside the meter, or blow the meter.

I doubt the wire glass bottle rig I saw on one of the web sites is pulling any where near 15 amps just looking at the picture, but I have no doubt a 6 cell device with 12, 6" X 6" x 1/4" thick plates, with 1/4" spacing between the plates, submerged in water with enough sodium bicarbonate, would easily pull 15 amps in my opinion. In fact it might pull 50 amps with enough sodium bicarbonate in it.

 

[ChrisTX]

I doubt the wire glass bottle rig I saw on one of the web sites is pulling any where near 15 amps just looking at the picture, but I have no doubt a 6 cell device with 12, 6" X 6" x 1/4" thick plates, with 1/4" spacing between the plates, submerged in water with enough sodium bicarbonate, would easily pull 15 amps in my opinion. In fact it might pull 50 amps with enough sodium bicarbonate in it.

I just tried running with the single jar using the wire. It was not effecient enough for any significant gains. My voltage was being robbed in the form of heat, and not HHO production. That was with a half a teaspoon of baking soda. I would recommend either the plate design, or a multi-cell with the wire. That's the only way I think you're going to see any results.

I am already working on building a plate design, but I am going to try a multi-cell using the wire as well.

 

[stealth908]

Actually most oil companies controll the auto industry and buy the rights to all the gas saving gadgets.

WERD! That's the truth!

 

[goodburbon]

I will be welding a bolt to the edge of a small 1/4" mild steel plate(or 3/8 depending on what I have laying around) for each of the electrodes. The assembly will be inside a length of PVC with the bolts protruding through the lid and my leads hooked to the plates. I also will use a non-conducting foam as a spacer between the plates at the bottom to hold them stable. Could you prescribe a gap distance that would be suitable for this application Eco?

Yes you are correct that the cell may retain voltage and may act a bit like a capacitor.

Hooking an ohm meter across the terminals of a battery may harm the meter depending on the type. The results will be inaccurate, however, since the meter measures resistance by applying a known small voltage to components to measure resistance.

 

[Gritts]

No, it's not.

Just because an alternator is rated at 55 amps and 1800 doesn't mean it pushes 55 amps at 1800 all the time, it only pushes that on request, and when you request it it gets harder to turn that little wheel on the end of the alternator thus using more engine power to produce that extra power.

Nobody reads my posts...(post 135) :smoker:

 

[Ecomike]

I will be welding a bolt to the edge of a small 1/4" mild steel plate(or 3/8 depending on what I have laying around) for each of the electrodes. The assembly will be inside a length of PVC with the bolts protruding through the lid and my leads hooked to the plates. I also will use a non-conducting foam as a spacer between the plates at the bottom to hold them stable. Could you prescribe a gap distance that would be suitable for this application Eco?

Yes you are correct that the cell may retain voltage and may act a bit like a capacitor.

Hooking an ohm meter across the terminals of a battery may harm the meter depending on the type. The results will be inaccurate, however, since the meter measures resistance by applying a known small voltage to components to measure resistance.

I would use between 1/4" and 3/8" gap for starters. The sponge idea is nice, but may interfer with gas production and gas realease at the surface, and with liquid flow at the boundary surface of the electrodes and the water. You want an open free vertical circulation. You might try vertical strips of PVC on the far ends, running the full length of the electrodes, or just some pvc spacers at the four corners.

 

[lawsoncl]

My point was that at 12 volts nominal and 15 amp draw

Since v=ir or v/i=r you are claiming that 2 inches of water with baking soda has .8 ohms of resistance. Which is completely ludicrous.

I'll just go stick some water under my hood after I get paid and see if this baloney works. Oh, and I'll document the "results"

I can't believe I have to waste money to prove that 10-1+1=10.

If it's acting more like a battery, which adding an acid or strong base would imply, then v=i/r won't be linear. You won't see any current flow until you exceed the voltage potential of the battery, after which you'll see a somewhat linear slope of the voltage/amperage curve. There may be a voltage breakdown threshold as well - sort of like once you draw an arc in air the resistance drops dramatically.

Still, I think 15 amps at 12 volts seems very high. Thats 180 watts and if my rough back of the napkin is right, once you hit boiling temp thats almost 5 cc of water boiled off per minute. That's much more water loss than these guys are reporting.

The thermodynamics laws say 10-1+1 < 10.

 

[Ecomike]

If it's acting more like a battery, which adding an acid or strong base would imply, then v=i/r won't be linear. You won't see any current flow until you exceed the voltage potential of the battery, after which you'll see a somewhat linear slope of the voltage/amperage curve. There may be a voltage breakdown threshold as well - sort of like once you draw an arc in air the resistance drops dramatically.

Still, I think 15 amps at 12 volts seems very high. Thats 180 watts and if my rough back of the napkin is right, once you hit boiling temp thats almost 5 cc of water boiled off per minute. That's much more water loss than these guys are reporting.

The breakdown voltage gets involved when the water starts splitting, I think, and the apparent resistance drops at that point. Then it levels back out and evently goes flat as the gas bubble population reachs a peak and masks the electrode surface. There will be linear, and nonlinear parts as the voltage is increased, and as the water heats up.

So, you going to make me do some math!:scared:

1 KW= 239.006 Cal/sec
180 Watts is 0.18 KW
so we have 0.18 * 239.006 = 43 Cal/sec
It takes 539.79 Cal/g to convert one gram of water liquid to vapor at 100 C.
At 43 Cal/sec we get 43/539.79 = 0.0797 g/sec, and I get 0.0797 grams per second converted to gas, assuming perfect insulation.
IIRC 1 gram of water at STP is 1 cc of water.

so in 1 hour of driving, 12 volts, 15 amps, we have:
60min*60sec=3600 sec
3600 sec* 0.0797 g/sec = 286.92 grams of water turned to vapor in 60 minutes. 286.92 grams is also 286.92 ml, or 0.286 liters of water.
3.8 liters per gallon, and so on.

4.872 grams per minute is what I get, so your 5 grams per minute is pretty close for a napkin calc, LOL!:cheers:

So if they are pumping 15 amps into one of the bigger units, they can't be boiling too much water at the rate of consumption they are reporting, so a large portion of it, if it is pulling 15 amps, must be going to splitting the water into hydrogen and oxygen, which I am told is energy intensive. Time to calculate the heat of formation of water next.

Of course, we are still waiting for a real amps reading from someone on their generator.

The thermodynamics laws say 10-1+1 < 10.

Can I quote you on that? LOL!

 

[Ecomike]

I just tried running with the single jar using the wire. It was not effecient enough for any significant gains. My voltage was being robbed in the form of heat, and not HHO production. That was with a half a teaspoon of baking soda. I would recommend either the plate design, or a multi-cell with the wire. That's the only way I think you're going to see any results.

I am already working on building a plate design, but I am going to try a multi-cell using the wire as well.

That unit is using 2 separate wires right?

 

[lawsoncl]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis#Electrolysis_of_water, it implies 50-70% efficiency. So the boil off is maybe closer to 1/3 of what you calculated. Still that implies a 30% system loss just in heating of the water. Electrolysis isn't terribly efficient.

Even more interesting is that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water implies that voltages higher than the 1.23 breakdown voltage simply add heat energy to the water. This would mean that multiple cells in series would have a much better efficiency and less energy wasted as heat.

For gas volume output, it would be faradays law that applies. In the immortal words of a college professor the actual solution is left as an exercise for the student. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday's_law_of_electrolysis


An interesting thread crunching numbers for energy required to split a gallon of water, etc. http://uplink.space.com/showflat.ph...=671734&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

 

[M.Sage]

No, it's not.

Just because an alternator is rated at 55 amps and 1800 doesn't mean it pushes 55 amps at 1800 all the time, it only pushes that on request, and when you request it it gets harder to turn that little wheel on the end of the alternator thus using more engine power to produce that extra power.

Exactly. If it was trying to generate power that there was no load for, voltage would go up in the system. On older alternators (actually, on some XJ alternators), you can full-field the alternator. Watch that voltage go way up, and listen to the drag in the alternator... you can hear it when you go from the usual 20-ish amps at "no-load" (lights, fans, etc. off, it takes about 20 amps to power the engine electrical) to max load.

Generating power with no load for it causes Bad Things to happen.

The thermodynamics laws say 10-1+1 < 10.

Exactly. 10 was 10 a minute ago, now it's not...

Can I quote you on that? LOL!

Everybody should.... The laws of thermodynamics say that you can't win, you can't break even and you can't quit the game. It's the "you can't break even" that this "HHO" scam fails to take into account.

 

[ChrisTX]

That unit is using 2 separate wires right?

Using 20 gauge 316L, I had 4 strands of braided wire for the positive, and 2 strands for the negative. I think if I run a multi-cell, and lower the voltage going to each one, it would be a decent producer, but as a single unit, not very good.

 

[hightime81]

Been a VERY long time since i last posted, but i am actually planning on finishing my build on a 2 jar cell today and i am looking for a bit of direction on the best way to run the line into my air intake? I haven't spent as much time under the hood as i should have recently, but i don't want to cut a hole into the big air-intake line, is there some 1/4 vacuum line that i can splice into that is accessible as well?

 

[REPOXP777]

Ok, I have been looking at this thread for A long time now and a bunch of other imformative HHO web sites for about the last year or so now and I just built my own last week and installed it today . I am not a expert in this field at all . I have a 89 (Renix Jeep)Cherokee with a 4.0 auto 2wd completly stock . It is my daily driver work vehicle and it has about 180000 miles . I carry alot of weight in the back all the time (tools and what not) and my average MPG is 16 to 18 tops , that is city driving stoping and starting all the time . My goal is to get at least a 10 MPG increase . I will post all of my numbers when I have run all of the gas out in a few days . I have had this Jeep for about 4 years and it runs like a new vehicle . So I will know very quickly if there is in fact a change in MPGor drivability problems . Good luck to all .

Ok , now for the update . This is the forth generator I have built and I have a steady gas production . I have increased my MPG from 16 to 18 to about 21 not a very big increase . I will see if I can get you some pics .

 

[REPOXP777]

All componets are stainless steel and nylon bushings . A couple more pics .

 

[REPOXP777]

As you can tell from the pics I had to relocate the ballist resister to get the generator to fit . The vac line is connected to the intake manifold .The unit is fused with a 15 amp fuse at the power source . One thing I am getting alot more of is power at low speeds . One thing I am sure of is that I am not producing as much gas as I want to , I am in the process of building a six or seven cell unit . I am not looking for more power , I am looking for better gas mileage and so far it has gone from 18 to 22 MPG . I still have a long way to go and I am still very skeptical about my long time results .

 

[REPOXP777]

I tryed to put up a vid but the link would not work.

 

[hightime81]

My Single cell system is now installed. it almost instantly made the engine sound quieter and smoother. i don't have pics yet, but working on it.

i have a ghetto switch set up right now, but where is a ignition only power source that i can connect to so that i can ditch the switch?

mileage testing now. will update.