**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

[hightime81]

after two test runs i have gone from ~17MPG to bit over 20MPG with the single cell. tomorrow i am going to build and try a 2 cell scenario.

 

[Ecomike]

after two test runs i have gone from ~17MPG to bit over 20MPG with the single cell. tomorrow i am going to build and try a 2 cell scenario.

But how far were the test(s) runs? Did you use a scanner for the MPG or gastank refills?
-------------------------
On another note, if anyone wants to get real time amperage readings on their HHO generator, you can buy an inexpensive analog amp meter online at Marlin P Jones, www.marlinpjones.com , they also have other electrical supplies you guys might useful. Some small digital and analog multi meters can go up to 10 amps, but many won't go over 1/2 amp, or 500 ma.

I bought one recently, 30 amps, 30 volt, with a 30 amp shunt, for about $20 so I could test the power load of all the devices on my diesel jeep one at a time.

 

[hightime81]

i used gas tank refills method to test. my runs were 10 miles on the nose each. so after fill up, i added another .49 and .47 gallons respectively.

i need to get a scanner or some electronic method of testing.

your sig says 34MPG, how did you attain that?

 

[lawsoncl]

If his posting times are tight, he's run it about an hour?

 

[Ecomike]

i used gas tank refills method to test. my runs were 10 miles on the nose each. so after fill up, i added another .49 and .47 gallons respectively.

i need to get a scanner or some electronic method of testing.

your sig says 34MPG, how did you attain that?

The 34 mpg is my 85 XJ, which has a custom installed, 2.2 L, Nissan diesel 4 banger, 64 HP, with a 5 speed manual Nissan tranny.

Back on topic, you will need to get, and post data on several 100 to 150 mile runs or farther, per fill up to avoid potential errors in the gas tank refilling process. The refilling error in refilling a gas tank can easily be as much as +/- 1/2 gallon. The gas tanks don't fill up all the way, unless you top them off about 20 or more times or move the plumbing in the tank around. The auto shut offs usually leave about 2 gallons of air space above the liquid in the gas tanks, leaving room for thermal expansion.

When the fuel pump auto shuts off on mine, I can usually sneak or get another 1 to 1.5 gallons in mine by topping it off 3 times, and it still has about 1-2 gallons of air left in it. So as you can see, a measured .47 gallon consumption can be off by a huge amount.

That said, the results look very positive so far. Let's see if they stay that way for 20 to 30 gallons, or 300 miles or more! Keep us posted!

 

[tbburg]

REPOXP777 18 to 21 MPG not significant? That's like 15%!

hightime81: Read his full sig "34 MPG, '85 2WD Cherokee Pioneer with custom installed, 64 hp, 2.2 L Nissan SD22 Diesel 5 spd Manual" not a gas engine.

 

[hightime81]

just saw the rest of the sig, thanks!

i am going to try to add another cell tomorrow and then run the dual cell system all week. i drive 50 miles a day round-trip to work and back. i think that will give me a better idea.

i will keep you all updated. i will try to get video tomorrow.

 

[Mstrkage]

I am still wondering what the effect this may have on a carbureted engine. Any ideas?

 

[Ecomike]

I am still wondering what the effect this may have on a carbureted engine. Any ideas?

As far as I know the carburated engines don't have O2 sensors, so other than adjusting the idle jets i'd say its worth a try. I read others say that it was easier to do ob carburated engines with no computer.

hightime81,

50 miles a day round trip to work sounds like a good test by the end of the week!:clap:


Everybody,

I am starting to think about throwing one together myself, but I am likely to get a bit more exotic with mine. I am thinking of using graphite plates for my electrodes!
arty:

 

[insanity]

I would like to try it out on my rig for highway driving only. If I could get 20mpg as apose to the 10mpg I currently get, the trip to the trail would be easier on the wallet.

 

[ChicksDigWagons]

double post...

 

[ChicksDigWagons]

Chris. I hate to tell you but you're dumb.

There is a problem with these devices. I'm not a chemist by any stretch of the imagination, so I'll explain it as best I know how. You are essentially electrolyzing the water into a gaseous state, which is pulled into your engine. You're not really splitting atoms here. Since you're turning the water into a gaseous state, the water lasts a very long time. Simple principle used by firefighters. Poke a hole in the roof to expose the fire itself, put the water on the flame, and the water will expand. You can make your water go further by turning it into water vapor, but were going further and turning it into gas. The HHO makes the combustion cycle more effecient, almost like running a higher octane, but with a cleaner burning fuel, so that tiny bit of extra drag on the alternator is miniscule, and almost irrelevant.

First. Gaseous water is called STEAM. If you're just trying to create steam, electrolysis is a very very bad way to do it. Just sayin. Higher octane fuels do NOT make an engine more efficient. At all.

When you inject the HHO (sort of a play on words, not really a scientific term) into your engine, you will be burning the hydrogen, and the oxygen will be the byproduct coming out of the exhaust. Since the engine expects a certain level of oxygen to come out, what is actually coming out is a lot cleaner, and it will sense a lean condition, and automatically richen the fuel mixture. We don't want this, because we are adding an alternative, or supplemental fuel, to the mix. If we had a rich fuel mixture, on top of the HHO, it would decrease the mileage.

If you BURN Hydrogren, you do NOT create Oxygen... Hydrogen burned with Oxygen = H2O.

Man.

I can't believe this whole HHO thing has taken off like this!!

You have people who add this thing to their car, and then they change a bunch of parameters to combat the Check Engine Light and POOF! Increase in mileage. What they don't realize is on some cars, they are probably creating a slight vacuum leak, leaning the mixture. If you hook up a hose to the vacuum port on a MAF based engine, that isn't completely sealed, you'll run a little lean. BOOM! Increase gas mileage!

And yup that will throw a code for sure.

What most people don't realize is that they have known how to make an engine easily get 30-40mpg for a long time. Run lean. Why DON'T they run lean?? Emissions!!!

If you run lean, you run hot. Which can be delt with, but the Nitrious Oxides emission goes through the roof. EPA don't like that. Since excess hydrocarbons are easier to scrub from the exhaust with a catalytic converter, they rather run on the rich side of stoich to keep NOx down, then scrub the excess hydrocarbons out with the cat.

It's sad but true. If you don't care about Nox emissions, just lean your engine out to about 18 or 20:1 at cruise. Your mileage will skyrocket. And under low load, your not in danger of hurting anything except the oil-barrons.

Now, you guys backing this HHO thing up, I'm not trying to dis you or the concept that introduction of H2 and O2 into the engine wouldn't help. It would create a hotter, more complete burn if you ask me. I don't doubt that at all.

What I DO doubt highly is the ability to generate enough gas to reach the point where that benefit is realized.

 

[REPOXP777]

Ok being a auto tech for many years has made me very skeptical about the results that I would get . So far I have gained 4 or 5 MPG . The first 3 generators I built were a complete failure and I have learned alot of info and put a lot of time into my forth generator. #1 All metal parts inside the generator need to be the same ( Stainless Steel the best so far ). #2 The gap of the electrodes is very important (1/16 of a inch) . #3 The kind and amount of electrolite in the generator is very important ( 1/4 table spoon of sodium bicarb in 1 quart of water has been the best so far) .#4 Making sure the generator is vac tight is a must . #5 The line coming from the generator must go to the intake manifold after the throttle body not before it . Remember this is on a 89 Renix Jeep so the results on OBD1 and OBD2 will be diff I am sure . I will keep trying to perfect it . Good luck to all .

 

[Stallacrew]

Where do you obtain sobium bicarbonate? I uderstand that isn't baking soda, right?

And how do you introduce the HHO into the intake after the throttle body? Would it be ok to put it in the TB spacer with a tapped hole and hose fitting?

I don't precisely understand where the vacuum goes and someone said to put it in your vacuum system IIRC. Why?

I'm on my way of making a 6 pack of them to go where my airbox was. I would rather learn from other people's mistakes rather than making the same mistake they did and slowing the process of refining the HHO generator

and REPOXP777, what kind of electrodes are you using? obviously stainless, but what are they? I learned really quick that copper doesn't work well at all because one side does fine and the other makes this awful corrosion.

Anyone tries to use H2SO4 for their electrolyte? It's battery acid and it's what dad reccomended on a trial out of car run with a battery charger........that may be why the copper didn't fare so well. It made lots of gas which I assumed was HHO, but it also made the liquid green/blue.

Lots of questions, so sorry, but I'm trying to get this thing refined as much as ya'll are. I have but one secret with the HHO generator, nothing big, but it will be let out soon.

--Alex

 

[Ecomike]

Where do you obtain sobium bicarbonate? I uderstand that isn't baking soda, right?

They are the same. Baking powder is different, but baking soda is sodium bicarbonate.

And how do you introduce the HHO into the intake after the throttle body? Would it be ok to put it in the TB spacer with a tapped hole and hose fitting?

That should be just as good.

Learned really quick that copper doesn't work well at all because one side does fine and the other makes this awful corrosion.

You want high nickel and chrome alloy stainless steel, minimum. Titanium would be better, and platinum plated titanium would be even better.

Anyone tries to use H2SO4 for their electrolyte? It's battery acid and it's what dad reccomended on a trial out of car run with a battery charger........that may be why the copper didn't fare so well. It made lots of gas which I assumed was HHO, but it also made the liquid green/blue.


--Alex

Bad idea. You made copper sulfate solution. H2SO4 is likely to give off SO3 gas while it disolved the copper, which when later combined with metal and or water in the engine is highly corrosive to the engine. SO3 + H2O = H2SO4

 

[Stallacrew]

I just called my grandfather who deals alot with press machines in the bullet industry and does alot of dealing with Russians. Russians use titanium like we use steel as I understand it. He said it is a very costly material (duh) and would be cheap there but hard to get back here.

He said he'd see what he could do when he goes for a business trip. Until then he has some 3/8 or 1/4 (he's not sure which) inch thick SS plate he'll let me use.

Should the electrodes be smooth with a mirror finish or rough and coarse?

 

[Ecomike]

I would like to try it out on my rig for highway driving only. If I could get 20mpg as apose to the 10mpg I currently get, the trip to the trail would be easier on the wallet.

I would suggest fixing the things are defective on your jeep first. Jeeps in working order, stock jeeps that is, should be able to get about 20 mpg highway miles. Likely causes of poor gas mileage are bad sensors including the O2 sensor, the TPS, CTS, MAT, vacuum leaks, exhaust manifold leaks, worn or bad spark plugs, plug wires, rotor and cap just for starters.

 

[insanity]

I would suggest fixing the things are defective on your jeep first. Jeeps in working order, stock jeeps that is, should be able to get about 20 mpg highway miles. Likely causes of poor gas mileage are bad sensors including the O2 sensor, the TPS, CTS, MAT, vacuum leaks, exhaust manifold leaks, worn or bad spark plugs, plug wires, rotor and cap just for starters.

I was geting 15 to 17mpg before I lifted it and did a lot of other mods. I figured that all of the mods combined caused it to drop in milage.

 

[Walt Stanley]

The great "run your car on water" scam
May 2008

NEW: Check out the One Million Dollar HHO Challenge for anyone who can demostrate a consistent 25% or greater fuel-saving from one of these HHO devices. Time for the scammers to put-up or shut-up

As oil prices rise, the quest for ways to replace fossil fuels or at least improve the mileage of modern vehicles becomes increasingly urgent.

All around the globe, teams of highly educated scientists slave away in an attempt to squeeze the last few percent of efficiency out of the conventional internal combustion engine because they know that even small improvements can have a big benefit to an auto-maker's bottom line.

At the same time, there appear to be legions of "garage mechanics" who are also working on ways to improve the mileage of your car.

All kinds of crazy devices are now flooding the market and promising to slash your fuel bill by improving your mileage, or maybe even completely eliminating the need to buy gasoline at all.

Perhaps the most prevalent of these systems is the HHO hydrogen generator system that is being pitched by numerous different individuals and small companies.

Connect one of these "fuel cells" up to your car's electrical system, fill it with water and run a pipe to your car's air intake and voila... you'll immediately see a significant improvement in your gas mileage.

Sounds almost too good to be true doesn't it?

And what is it they say about things that sound too good to be true?

Let's take a closer look at those HHO "hydrogen fuel cells".

They are actually nothing more than a simple electrolysis device that uses electricity to split water into its constituent components -- two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen.

There is nothing magical about this, it's a process that's been around for a very long time.

The gases generated by the electrolysis of water (sometimes referred to as Brown's Gas) can be recombined by way of combustion to release energy.

Unfortunately, the first law of thermodynamics states quite clearly that the energy generated by recombining the hydrogen and oxygen through combustion can only ever be equal to the amount of energy it took to separate them.

In fact it's worse than that.

Because there all sorts of losses involved in the generation of the electricity, the delivery of it to the electrolysis cell and then the combustion process, we actually recover far less energy from burning the hydrogen than it took to create it.

So, once those losses are taken into account, these useless devices will actually cause your car to use *more* fuel - that extra fuel doing nothing more than heating the water in that electrolysis cell and the wires that lead to it.

What's more, the introduction of hydrogen and oxygen into your engine's intake can also lead to the car's computer incorrectly adjusting the air/fuel mixture to the point where fuel consumption either worsens further, or damage could be done to your engine.

As usual in the wonderful world of physics, there are no free lunches.

But a little scientific fact is not about to stand in the way of those who think they can make money from the current energy crisis.

They still insist you can increase your gas mileage by sucking power from your alternator and using it to create hydrogen.

Why would you buy anything (be it plans, instructions or ready-built kits) from someone who has not the faintest grasp of basic science?

Here's a typical scam site that makes outrageous claims you'll "double your mileage" and "generate free energy".

Of course they work hard tug on your heartstrings and feelings of guilt by claiming that you'll also be saving the planet.

Well I'm sorry but this is nothing but a bunch of lies.

Nobody has yet broken the first law of thermodynamics and there's no sign that anyone will. These laws are immutable and have withstood the test of time and many, many brilliant scientific minds.

But what about all these glowing testimonials?

Chances are that some are fake. Others are just poor deluded fools who want it to be true so much that they fool themselves into believing this worthless idea actually works.

Notice how the vast majority of these testimonials come from people such as "Eric from Wisconsin" or "R.A. Foreman (USA)". There is no way to contact these people, let alone even verify that they actually exist.

You'll also notice something else about many of those who pop up claiming that they're using the system and it works... they provide you with a link to a website. That link is inevitably either a paid-per-click link, or the address of a website promoting these scams. In the first instance, the scammer earns a dollar or so every time someone (including you) clicks on that link. In the second case they're usually part of an affiliate or referral scheme whereby they earn a few dollars for every kit, eBook or other piece of snake oil that's sold.

Want proof?

Well look at this page where it's proudly stated that "earn 50% commissions for every referral that places an order".

So of course these people are going to lie to you and say it works, because they want you to believe them and visit the websites or buy the product so that *they* get paid.

And, by the water4gas.com website's own admission, some of its fellow-scammers are earning tens of thousands of dollars every month by duping people into believing this stuff actually works, often simply by telling giant lies and stating that they get enormous fuel-savings when in fact they get none. Don't become one of their victims.

Another good clue to the fact that this is a scam is the way these systems are being marketed on sites such as YouTube. Just look at the result of this search on YouTube.

See how the scammers are spamming YouTube with worthless, endlessly repeated ads that simply serve to promote these worthless products? If this was a genuine product that worked as advertised, word of mouth advertising would ensure that it sold like wildfire. Spamming is the last resort for those pitching products of no value which will never ever receive word-of-mouth endorsement by those who have wasted their money on them.

Please do everyone a favour and whenever someone has uploaded multiple videos all the same and all pitching to promote these lame schemes, take a moment to flag them all as spam. Just think, by doing this, you may be saving some innocent dupe from being fleeced.

This horrible scam is simply an attempt to separate you from a whopping $97 of your hard-earned cash. That money will get you access to a couple of e-books that purport to contain the secrets of doubling your fuel economy by breaking the laws of thermodynamics.

Don't waste your money. Don't become just another sucker who is taken in by shysters like these (and there are plenty more out there, I've just given one example).

In today's world of rapidly rising fuel prices, $97 won't buy you much gas but it'll get you a lot further than the worthless plans and instructions in these books.

If you have a website of your own, please add a link to this page so that it can be found by those poor hapless souls that might be contemplating wasting good money on one of these scams.

Now check out the scientific proof that shows just how impossible these "run your car on water" scams really are.

Quick navigation of this feature:

* The HHO Scam-busting homepage
* The proof HHO is a scam
* A reply to the HHO scammers
* What the scammers say about this site
* The HHO Scam FAQ
* Other fuel-saver scams
* Who is Ozzie Freedom?
* The One Million Dollar HHO challenge
* Discuss this in the forums

 

[Ecomike]

I was geting 15 to 17mpg before I lifted it and did a lot of other mods. I figured that all of the mods combined caused it to drop in milage.

They may have caused some of the drop in mpg on yours, but I would look for other fixable reasons too. My '87, 4x4, stock XJ, 4.0 L, was getting 8-10 mpg at its worst, and 75% of the lost stock mileage was due to a bad Renix TPS and O2 sensor. The TPS was a dual one, AW4 Tranny, and the ECU side was good, but the TCU side was bad, so it was shifting too early, and not getting into the peak torque MPG efficient zone. The O2 sensor was the other half of the problem. Now I am looking at the torque converter lock up, thinking it is the last of MPG problems.

Walt Stanley,

Before we all get sidetracked here again with a bunch of useless, counterproductive mud slinging, please read ALL my posts (Ecomike) in this thread, and the one with my credentials (see the link) as well, before you post anymore about why this can't work. Simple request that many of us here would appreciate. There about about a dozen serious sceptics here that are actually trying this out right now to settle the issue, one way or the other, so in about 2 weeks we should start seeing a dozen or so sceptics posting their results, good or bad in this thread.

As I said above, please read my earlier posts in this thread, and the US DOE links on prior US DOE research that showed that the addition of some hydrogen to hydrocarbon fuels like gasoline in ICE engines, could make the engine output of the OTTO Cycle more efficient. I am not going to repost it all, it is already here!

Oh, and just to clear the air here, I think everyone in this thread agrees and is aware that are a bunch of scam artists out there fleecing the public and using this freewater run your car on water entropy scam to do it, but underneath all of their BS is something that looks useful and interesting that is based on some solid DOE research from 1978.