lrainman said:
Now let's get back on topic.
Sounds like a plan. Now lets see, uh, what was the topic anyway? LOL.
OK, before I get started here, I am going ask, and suggest, and request nicely that the loud, obnocktious, naysayers who want to drop in and throw mud at this please take the time to actually read what Irainman and I have posted and said here in this entire thread, first. Never mind the rest ofthe posts. Then if you have a question, or think your see a problem or flaw in what we are doing and or saying, please then ask an inteligent question, or post an inteligent comment like others have done. Please leave out the derogatory, and inflamatory remarks.
Now for some feedback.
Goodburbon and Irainman,
Regarding the post to post resistance reading question. The sodium carbonate (Na2(CO3)) disolves in the Deionized or distilled water, which creates a highly conductive electrolyte solution. I would need to read up a little on this to refresh my memory, but IIRC, I think the resistance, or perhaps I should call it impedance, of the cell
changes as the voltage potential crosses the threshold (meaning the gap between the two electrodes) and builds up to the point where the water begins to split into hydrogen and oxygen. Some of that water splitting forms H+ and OH- molecules that increase the electrolyte conductivity. A number of other complex species form in the water electrolyte solution, but that would take a text book to go into that. As the gasses (O2 and H2) form on the electrode surfaces they reduce the surface area and thus reduce the conductivity of the cell. Some of the electrical energy going through the cell is lost to heat, which raises the electrolyte temperature. Changes in temperature of the electrolyte definately change the electrical conductivity of the cell. Note that resistance is equal to 1/ conductivity, and conductivity is 1/resistance. Then some of the metal in the electrodes can disolve in the electrolyte, and plate out on the other electrode, but during that time they adding to the electrolyte and are changing the conductivity of the cell. Finally the electrode surface area can be changing over time as the water heats up and expands, the volume changes and the exposed surface area changes. So the point I am trying to make is these cells have a very dynamic chemistry going on in them that changes the cell resistance at 12 volts, compared to what a high impedance ohm meter might read using a 1.5 volt battery to test with. I am not sure he can get an accurate ohm meter reading on a cold, non active cell. I think he should be able to get a reading that will be in the neighborhood, but it could easily be different from the active cells resistance by 300 or 400%.
Have you ever charged a battery that sat up for a long time, and at first it only pulls a few amps, then it doubles and triples, charges for a long while at high current then slowly drops back off to just a trickle. That is sort of what I am talking about.
I have worked with electrolysis and electrolytic plating since 1973, and I have a new electrolytic battery patent pending right now, and an electrolytic hazardous waste destructuion patent that the US DOE sponsored, that was issued in 1997, patent number 5,593,598, Jan. 14, 1997. Furthermore, I have a Chemical Engineering degree from the University of Houston. So I am pretty familiar with this stuff. I have no problem believing they are pulling at least a few amps at 12 volts with these glass jar gadgets, or even more amps if they go to larger surface areas and closer plate spacing in a bigger unit.
Sorry if I overdid that answer, but I was also trying to quell some of the we don't now what the Fock we are talking about rhetoric from several others while commenting on the resistance of the cell question. The resistance of the cell question was a legitamit and fair question.
Irainman and I have no problem with hard, inteligent, probing questions, in fact we invite them.
Now while ChrisTX is in my court on thisso to speak, He posted the following a while back, and a lot of it just wrong. Not his fault, he admitted he is not a chemist, and he is just paroting what he has read.
So I quote from ChrisTX
"There is a problem with these devices. I'm not a chemist by any stretch of the imagination, so I'll explain it as best I know how. You are essentially electrolyzing the water into a gaseous state, which is pulled into your engine."
We are OK so far her.
"You're not really splitting atoms here."
Not sure what he ment. We are not spliting individual atoms, but we are separating atoms from molecules and recombining them into other molecules.
"Since you're turning the water into a gaseous state, the water lasts a very long time. Simple principle used by firefighters. Poke a hole in the roof to expose the fire itself, put the water on the flame, and the water will expand. You can make your water go further by turning it into water vapor, but were going further and turning it into gas. The HHO makes the combustion cycle more effecient, almost like running a higher octane, but with a cleaner burning fuel, so that tiny bit of extra drag on the alternator is miniscule, and almost irrelevant."
Somebody already Knocked (LOL) the higher octane comparison and well I am going to leave that alone for now, except to say that the math I see and hear so far indicates they are using about 1 gallon of distilled or deionised water, in 500 miles. At 20 MPG, they using 25 gallons of gasoline. That is one 25 gallons of gasoline to one gallon of water , or 4%, or a 25:1 ratio. Even 1 quart of water in 500 miles is still a 1% feed ratio to the gasoline feed. If the 1 to 5% feed of hydrogen to hydrocarbon fuel does improve the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) output by 20% as reported the US DOE in 1978, then the math and some of the claims seem to have a basis.
"When you inject the HHO (sort of a play on words, not really a scientific term) into your engine, you will be burning the hydrogen, and the oxygen will be the byproduct coming out of the exhaust. Since the engine expects a certain level of oxygen to come out, what is actually coming out is a lot cleaner, and it will sense a lean condition, and automatically richen the fuel mixture. We don't want this, because we are adding an alternative, or supplemental fuel, to the mix. If we had a rich fuel mixture, on top of the HHO, it would decrease the mileage."
Sorry ChrisTX, but even though your siding with me on the overall topic, some of that info is just plane wrong. Yes we are burning hydrogen. No oxygen is not a byproduct, it is the oxidizer, and it is also consumed. The oxygen recombines with the hydrogen releasing energy, and reforms to make water.
I have yet to figure why the HHO guys are messing with their O2 sensors. So far I think they have just been missled, missguided, and gotten confused by the miss information that seems to be rampant out there on this topic.
I do suspect, as I said before that they are trying to overcome an OBD-II problem presented by mass air flow sensors seeing the extra gas flow from the HHO generators, and the computer thinking it is air, with 21% oxygen, starts compensating for it with extra fuel, thus lowering the mileage.
Anybody know what year the MAF sensors were added?
Irainmans is a 95, pre OBD-II.
"Other ways people are trying is by putting spacers in the O2 sensors to get them further out of the exhaust stream. Another thing I've heard is people putting foil on the O2 sensor to heat them up, but I'm not even remotely sure how that works. They're just dirt cheap mods. Most MAP sensor enhancers are about $40 to $50. The O2 sensor enhancers are $70 or so. If you have two O2 sensors, you need a dual sensor enhancer, or one that will plug to both sensors."
As far as I am concerned all the O2 sensor mods I have read on the HHO pages are pure BS. None of them know what are they doing yet, or how to do what they want to do. The foil, the antifouler plugs, the spaces are all BS in my opinion.
There are guys on Naxja using adjustable MAP sensors.
4x4 Station Wagon,
You said it worked at first then dropped off, I suggest you look for possible gas leaks in your plumbing. Try a fresh batch of water and sodium carbonate.
WAIT!!!!!! DING, DING, DING! You guys are not using sodium carbonate, you are using sodium bicarbonate. That is NaHCO3, one sodium, one hydrogen and one CO3 molecule! You may be losing the hydrogen and the CO3 to gas as H2, CO and O2, and leaving some Na and CO3 behind as sodium carbonate which is 2 sodiums, Na2 and 1 carbonate CO3. Na2CO3
So let me reprase that, try a fresh batch of sodium bicarbonate otherwise known as baking soda and DI or distilled water and see if the performance returns! You also might try in a seperate test swapping the wires on the posts, and reversing the polarity of the cell. That would help clean (strip, the reverse of plating) any oxidation or scale that may have plated onto one of the electrodes.
I 
