**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

[Ecomike]

I think you must be distracted by something else, because I'm sure you know that there is no difference between sodium carb and sodium bicarb: in solution they will interchange depending on the pH.

It is the pH that is different, as well as the ions. You can get Na(+), CO3(-2), and HCO3(-1). With sodium carbonate you get predominately (2)Na(+), and CO3(-2) in solution at a pH of 10 or higher. With Sodium Bicarbonate you get Na(+) and HCO3(-) at a lower pH (I forget the pH, 6.8 maybe).

Bicarb will make a more basic solution than carbonate.

No it's the other way around.

But a carbonate solution of any kind will very readily produce CO2 directly, without any electrolysis. There's a natural balance between dissolved CO2 in solution and CO3-, and it will interconvert. One of the ways to accelerate this, for example to deplete the carbonate by creating CO2, is to change the pH (I think raising it is usually the best way to do this).

Yes, and no. H2CO3 in Coke soft drinks is all H2CO3, carbonic acid. It is supersaturated, and unstable as a result. That is why it foams. The foam is CO2 gas, leaving water behind. CO2 + H2O = H2CO3.

H2CO3 will react with a base like NaOH to give NaHCO3, and eventually with enough NaOH added you get Na2CO3. NaHCO3 will react with an acid or a base and give of some CO2 gas.

But if people are really serious about trying this, why on earth bother with electrolysis units? Wouldn't the tests be far easier to conduct with compressed gas tanks? You can monitor the consumption, the flow, vary the H2/O2 ratio (or not use O2 at all)...

By using electrolysis you're just making everything that much more complicated to get reliable data, as well as proving ammunition for naysayers.

As an aside, if you really must use electrolysis, drop the voltage down, since it only takes a tiny amount (<2V, IIRC, but I can calculate it if anyone really wants to know), and the higher the voltage the more unwanted side reactions you'll make possible.

I think the attraction is not having to buy Hydrogen and not having to carry the high pressure flammable gas. Correct, and one of the devices linked below (the Smack version) has multiple plates in series that drops the per plate voltage closer to 2 volts per cell.

Irainman, can you measure the pH of the water at various times for me?

Keep in mind, because of the carbonate content, and exposure to the air over time (CO2 in the air), the carbonate content can change, and so can the pH. The pH will also change with temperature. I am primarily interested in seeing if the pH is going up from say 6.x to 9.x, which should be easy for you to do, if you can access the lab meter at work, or buy some fresh pH paper.

 

[Ecomike]

Wait, what was the NaHCO3 versus Na2CO3 thing about? What are you trying to say by this?

I'm going to go back and read those links that were posted involving building the electrolysis cells, but I want to understand the chemistry here first.

I know that ELECTROlytes conduct electricity and provide an easier path for the electrons to flow from the anode to the cathode throught the water, but do they themselves split to aid in hydrogen production?

Basically Sodium Bicarbonate, or Baking Soda is a salt or electrolyte, so theoretically any salt would work? The only reason that table salt, or Sodium Chloride isn't being used (seeing as it's just as or more plentiful) is because the Chlorine attacks Ferrous materials, especially one's that are being electrified.

Maybe NaHCO3 is especially helpful because it contains one molecule of hydrogen, which can split off and aid Hydrogen production itself, but that reduces the NaHCO3 to Na2CO3, which isn't as an effective electrolyte as NaHCO3, so over time the mixture will have to be refreshed?

Maybe I'm blabbering... but yeah, I hope it makes sense?

and to Bowzone_Mikey, I'm highly doubting that, over 250 miles, with a quarter inch of the 1L H2O to 1Tbsp NaHCO3 evaporating into the system, anything will harm the engine... I mean, my engine probably sees more crap from driving in the dusty desert over 250 miles than it would EVER see from a little Sodium Bicarbonate getting into it (a very mild salt anyways).

You are doing just fine for a 17 year old, hang in there kid!

The answer is yes, the HCO3(-1) ion can dissasociate under electrolysis into H(+1), and O(-1) ions, and CO2 gas. The CO2 gas can be lost to off gassing, or it can combine with water to form H2CO3, carbonic acid. Some of the metals in the electrodes can disolve and react with the CO3(-2) ions and form an insoluble metal carbonate sludge, like zinc, copper, nickel or iron carbonate. Zn(+2)-CO3(-2), zinc carbonate for example. So in summary there are several ways the carbonate electrolyte can be lost.

Oh, and using NaCl, table salt as the electrolyte generates not only chlorine gas but HCl, hydrochloric acid. Neither is very forgiving on the iron, alluminum or the oil TBN (Total Base Number, measures the abiltiy of oil to neutralize acids) in the engine.

 

[ChrisTX]

I need to get three more connectors that I ran out of, but aside from that, I'll fill this thing up in the morning and see what happens. Everything is hooked up, aside from the power wires. I have it installed through a master switch in the cab. I also have the MAP adjuster in the cab, so I can now adjust my a/f mixture manually, and I have two knobs for two settings of adjustment that can be selected with the flip of a switch. The MAP adjuster is also on a main power switch. I've also made vacuum caps, so I can completely isolate the vacuum. In other words, I can flip two switches, slip on two caps, and it's like I never had this thing installed.

The only two wires I had to tap into were signal wire for the MAP sensor, and then I used the evap purge solenoid power wire as the power for this system, since it's only on when the key is on. The evap wire was close to where I'm mounting this thing, so I don't have wires going everywhere.

I will post more tomorrow, and maybe get some pictures, but I'm not posting any results until I have at least one tank of gas through it. I think three tanks would be better. I guess we'll see if this thing's gonna work or not.

We also installed one on my brother's 1999 GMC Z71 as well, but also ran short on connectors, and will finish up in the morning. We ran into a problem with his. All his vacuum lines are hard lines, and they have the quick connects on them. Right now, he's just plugged into the tube that runs from the airbox to the throttle body. We hope to find a way to get him directly into the vacuum system later.

We have a scangauge II coming, so hopefully results will be a little more precise.

 

[Ecomike]

ChrisTX,

I suggest running your initial tests with out using the MAP adjuster. Good scientific methods only change one variable at a time.

 

[ChrisTX]

ChrisTX,

I suggest running your initial tests with out using the MAP adjuster. Good scientific methods only change one variable at a time.

It's already hooked up. I could turn it off, but that defeats the purpose. I'm not out to "prove" to any one that it works. I'm not a scientist, and even if it does work, half the people here would still argue with me that, based on some scientific grounds, it shouldn't be working. I have one goal in mind, and it's not to armchair quarterback and criticize somebody else's efforts to try something out.

 

[Mstrkage]

One problem I see with plugging it into vacuum is vacuum is typically higher at idle and much much less at higher rpms. That and it pulses with the engine.

 

[ChrisTX]

One problem I see with plugging it into vacuum is vacuum is typically higher at idle and much much less at higher rpms. That and it pulses with the engine.

That's why I have mine tied into a vacuum line, AND the intake.

 

[Ecomike]

It's already hooked up. I could turn it off, but that defeats the purpose. I'm not out to "prove" to any one that it works. I'm not a scientist, and even if it does work, half the people here would still argue with me that, based on some scientific grounds, it shouldn't be working. I have one goal in mind, and it's not to armchair quarterback and criticize somebody else's efforts to try something out.

If you don't try them seperately and together, 3 diffferent tests, you won't know if the improvement is caused by just the MAP adjuster, or just the HHO generator, or if their is combined effect that is greater than just the sum of the two sperate effects.

 

[REPOXP777]

Ok, I have been looking at this thread for A long time now and a bunch of other imformative HHO web sites for about the last year or so now and I just built my own last week and installed it today . I am not a expert in this field at all . I have a 89 (Renix Jeep)Cherokee with a 4.0 auto 2wd completly stock . It is my daily driver work vehicle and it has about 180000 miles . I carry alot of weight in the back all the time (tools and what not) and my average MPG is 16 to 18 tops , that is city driving stoping and starting all the time . My goal is to get at least a 10 MPG increase . I will post all of my numbers when I have run all of the gas out in a few days . I have had this Jeep for about 4 years and it runs like a new vehicle . So I will know very quickly if there is in fact a change in MPGor drivability problems . Good luck to all .

 

[ChrisTX]

HHO is hooked up. Still tweaking the a/f ratios. The motor is smooth. At stop lights, you almost have to listen to make sure it's even running.

 

[Ecomike]

One problem I see with plugging it into vacuum is vacuum is typically higher at idle and much much less at higher rpms. That and it pulses with the engine.

IIRC the engine vacuum only drops significanly, and briefly during rapid acceleration. But you do make an interesting point. The gasoline fuel feed has to deal with same problem too!

 

[Ecomike]

US Department of Energy paper says:

"To some extent, mixing hydrogen with other hydrocarbon
fuels reduces all of these drawbacks. Hydrogen’s low ignition
energy limit and high burning speed makes the hydrogen/
hydrocarbon mixture easier to ignite, reducing misfire
and thereby improving emissions, performance and fuel
economy. Regarding power output, hydrogen augments the
mixture’s energy density at lean mixtures by increasing the
hydrogen-to-carbon ratio, and thereby improves torque at
wide-open throttle conditions."

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Found on page 27 of 29.

And on page 18:

"Another technique for thermally diluting the fuel mixture is
the injection of water. Injecting water into the hydrogen
stream prior to mixing with air has produced better results
than injecting it into the hydrogen-air mixture within the intake
manifold. A potential problem with this type of system
is that water can get mixed with the oil, so care must be
taken to ensure that seals do not leak."

"While direct injection solves the problem of pre-ignition in
the intake manifold, it does not necessarily prevent preignition
within the combustion chamber. In addition, due to
the reduced mixing time of the air and fuel in a direct injection
engine, the air/fuel mixture can be non-homogenous.
Studies have suggested this can lead to higher NOx emissions
than the non-direct injection systems. Direct injection
systems require a higher fuel rail pressure than the other
methods.
3.4.2 Thermal Dilution
Pre-ignition conditions can be curbed using thermal dilution
techniques such as exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) or water
injection.
As the name implies, an EGR system recirculates a portion
of the exhaust gases back into the intake manifold. The introduction
of exhaust gases helps to reduce the temperature
of hot spots, reducing the possibility of pre-ignition. Additionally,
recirculating exhaust gases reduce the peak combustion
temperature, which reduces NOx emissions.
Typically a 25 to 30% recirculation of exhaust gas is effective
in eliminating backfire.
On the other hand, the power output of the engine is reduced
when using EGR. The presence of exhaust gases reduces
the amount of fuel mixture that can be drawn into the
combustion chamber."

 

[M.Sage]

resistance reading across the posts please...

I ask because I am amazed that you are getting a 15A draw on a 12V system through a conductor like...Water with Baking soda in it.

Basically I think you don't know how math works and are just throwing numbers out there until you give me a reading. And I won't trust any calculations you put out there, including mileage.

Also, are you using any fuel additives?


BTW, he isn't boiling water with his electrodes. Water vapor will occur naturally because 1. IT IS IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT, it gets hot there, and you have a bucket of water.

Oh, water with baking soda in it will have enough resistance that, depending on how far you set the two electrodes from each other, you can get a 15 amp (or more, if the mix is wrong) draw on it.

This is one of the issues I have with this setup. You cannot be getting gains back to offset the added draw to the alternator... at the least. 12v isn't much juice and water has enough resistance that it won't short a 12v system outright.

Oh, but I forgot... thermodynamics has nothing to do with it.

ETA: Ecomike... you're still talking about hydrogen, not hydrogen/oxygen mix. Comparing the two is like comparing gasoline to propane... If you try using a fuel/oxygen mix (that's already stoich) as a substitute for straight fuel, you're not going to get the same results. Preignition is not a big problem with more modern vehicles.

To get benefits from stanching preignition, you'll have to have the potential for preignition. That's not going to happen in stock tune. If you lean your fuel mix somehow, or if you bump ignition timing or raise compression ratio (or a combination), then yes; water injection is for you.

HHO is hooked up. Still tweaking the a/f ratios. The motor is smooth. At stop lights, you almost have to listen to make sure it's even running.

Why are you tweaking AF ratios? You're adding a stoich mix of fuel and oxygen into a stoich mix of fuel and oxygen! Stoich plus stoich equals... stoich.

 

[beakie]

justy because I really don't know much about engines, alternator draws, and such... would this really draw that much more than your headlights being on, amp pushing 300+WATTS to subs, or 4x KC Daylighters for a few hours out on the trails?
Many people are arguing the fact the alt will be working SOO much more powering this technology, but how much more is it than our normal daily drains on the system?
I have 2 LightForce 170's, a winch, an amp, and upgraded headlight wiring... isn't that putting quite a bit more drain on the system and causing the alt to work that much harder too?

 

[Gritts]

I would think that anytime you transmit/change one form of energy to another (like burning coal to make electricity) there would be significant energy loses. With this HHO stuff you are using electricity to make fuel. How much energy is lost in THIS process? Also how much (if any) 'free' energy can you get from the alternator. I mean its working to a certain extent all the time anyway.

"but how much more is it than our normal daily drains on the system?
I have 2 LightForce 170's, a winch, an amp, and upgraded headlight wiring... isn't that putting quite a bit more drain on the system and causing the alt to work that much harder too?"--beakie


Putting a constant load on the alternator will work the engine harder and result in lower fuel economy. Most of the stuff you listed won't be used all the time. The BIG question will the HHO equipment (since it is a constant load) work in a way that actually improves MPG instead of hurting it. Testing will tell. Hopefully we'll have some answers soon. Keep your toes crossed.:cheers:

 

[goodburbon]

My point was that at 12 volts nominal and 15 amp draw

Since v=ir or v/i=r you are claiming that 2 inches of water with baking soda has .8 ohms of resistance. Which is completely ludicrous.

I'll just go stick some water under my hood after I get paid and see if this baloney works. Oh, and I'll document the "results"

I can't believe I have to waste money to prove that 10-1+1=10.

 

[swbooking]

Thank you, finally someone thats gonna document the results... Goodburbon, please post up your results and the setup of your kit.

 

[BonesBrosChris]

There is a youtube vid on this forum of a guy who did it to a TJ..... but this might be a repost. Day late, dollar short.

http://www.wranglerforum.com/general-jeep-discussion/my-dads-hybrid-wrangler-s-19005.html

 

[lrainman]

I'll just go stick some water under my hood after I get paid and see if this baloney works. Oh, and I'll document the "results"

I can't believe I have to waste money to prove that 10-1+1=10.

You might want to hook it up to a power source and plum it into the intake, just the water sitting under the hood isn't going to do anything! :doh:

One more thing who said that they are getting .8 ohms of resistance? I couldn't get a multi-meter to read it.

 

[rworks]

justy because I really don't know much about engines, alternator draws, and such... would this really draw that much more than your headlights being on, amp pushing 300+WATTS to subs, or 4x KC Daylighters for a few hours out on the trails?
Many people are arguing the fact the alt will be working SOO much more powering this technology, but how much more is it than our normal daily drains on the system?
I have 2 LightForce 170's, a winch, an amp, and upgraded headlight wiring... isn't that putting quite a bit more drain on the system and causing the alt to work that much harder too?

You have an excellent point. Is the 15 amp draw from the HHO generator really gonna effect much? Just for the sake of argument, lets say that my altenator is rated for 55 amps at 1800rpm. If the total amps needed to run the vehcile's electricals and charge the battery is 40, isn't the altenator producing 15 amps that aren't doing anything productive? So if I add a 15 amp draw, I'm not forcing any extra work on the system.

Is this logical?