**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

[Ecomike]

I found this pdf file and web site on the Smack unit they refered to below. The Smake unit has free 17 page pdf with a parts list and how to build and design a fairly professional looking, professionaly designed unit, at least on initial inspection. He he is selling the parts kit for $170, and an assembled unit for $270 for those who do not want to run around finding parts etc, but for what it is worth he is using stainless steel light switch plates for the actual plates, cheap and easy to get.

http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

He also has some important safety features and warnings regarding using a one way check valve and second water container that he calls a bubbler, I would call it a scrubber, intended to make sure the KOH or NaOH electrolyte salts do not get into the engine. The bubbler and check valve are there to stop flash back explosions of the electrolysis cell should the engine ever backfire (like our XJs do when the MAP sensor vacuum line gets knocked loose, :scared

Personally I would not use the plastics, or glass, any of the these people are using. I would use schedule 80 Celcon brand CPVC, due the heat under the hood, and the internal heat generated by the cell. Celcon CPVC can handle 200 F continuous exposure. I would also think about using a pressure relief valve set for about 2 psi on the cell itself, should the bubbler and check valve fail to stop a flash back from a backfire.

lawsoncl,

Since most of these guys are using PVC housings, which can not handle much more than 140 F and from what I read today many of them are running about 150 F, I don't think they are introducing a lot of water, or steam from the generator, but they are introducing some for sure since the 150 F water is being sucked on at 5 to 20 inches of vacuum! The mason jar version might be able to run hotter. I read one guy that got his up to 200 F when he was experimenting with plate spacing, and he had a larger plate gap. The larger the plate gap the more heat generated.

I am still trying to get a handle on the problem many of these people are reporting with OBD-II vehicles. But it is difficult to figure out just what they are running into in some cases because of their poor documentation and poor understanding of various things, like terminolgy. The scam artists and all their Free energy, BS postings don't help either.

They are modifying the MAP and O2 sensor inputs to the ECU / PCMs to get around some kind of problem, but I can't tell for sure if they are doing the sensor mods to further improve mileage, or to get around some sensor issue that does not like the browns gas feed.

Perhaps it involves the MAF sensor seeing the browns gas flow on the newer vehicles and interpreting the browns gas as ambient air. Renix does not have the MAF sensor.

 

[lrainman]

Ecomike thank you for your research on this topic, and the help with ideas for a more stable version, I am currently working on a revision for testing purpose that will go in my jeep after I run my current one for a month or so to get some starting points and results to work from.

 

[ChrisTX]

Please keep me in PM or by this thread posted on your result. I am curious to hear from other people if it works for them as well.
And one more thing for all of you that obviously want to argue the fact that it can't work, go find another thread to talk on. There is only a thousand other topics going on so have a good time somewhere else. And trust me one way or another, good or bad I will keep posting results from my XJ so that other people will know if it works.

I sure will. Everyone's a skeptic until proven otherwise. If it doesn't work, I'll say it doesn't. I don't have a lot of money into it. The parts cost next to nothing. For many of the parts, a bag of 10 pieces is like $1.19.

I found this pdf file and web site on the Smack unit they refered to below. The Smake unit has free 17 page pdf with a parts list and how to build and design a fairly professional looking, professionaly designed unit, at least on initial inspection. He he is selling the parts kit for $170, and an assembled unit for $270 for those who do not want to run around finding parts etc, but for what it is worth he is using stainless steel light switch plates for the actual plates, cheap and easy to get.

http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

He also has some important safety features and warnings regarding using a one way check valve and second water container that he calls a bubbler, I would call it a scrubber, intended to make sure the KOH or NaOH electrolyte salts do not get into the engine. The bubbler and check valve are there to stop flash back explosions of the electrolysis cell should the engine ever backfire (like our XJs do when the MAP sensor vacuum line gets knocked loose, :scared

Personally I would not use the plastics, or glass, any of the these people are using. I would use schedule 80 Celcon brand CPVC, due the heat under the hood, and the internal heat generated by the cell. Celcon CPVC can handle 200 F continuous exposure. I would also think about using a pressure relief valve set for about 2 psi on the cell itself, should the bubbler and check valve fail to stop a flash back from a backfire.

lawsoncl,

Since most of these guys are using PVC housings, which can not handle much more than 140 F and from what I read today many of them are running about 150 F, I don't think they are introducing a lot of water, or steam from the generator, but they are introducing some for sure since the 150 F water is being sucked on at 5 to 20 inches of vacuum! The mason jar version might be able to run hotter. I read one guy that got his up to 200 F when he was experimenting with plate spacing, and he had a larger plate gap. The larger the plate gap the more heat generated.

I am still trying to get a handle on the problem many of these people are reporting with OBD-II vehicles. But it is difficult to figure out just what they are running into in some cases because of their poor documentation and poor understanding of various things, like terminolgy. The scam artists and all their Free energy, BS postings don't help either.

They are modifying the MAP and O2 sensor inputs to the ECU / PCMs to get around some kind of problem, but I can't tell for sure if they are doing the sensor mods to further improve mileage, or to get around some sensor issue that does not like the browns gas feed.

Perhaps it involves the MAF sensor seeing the browns gas flow on the newer vehicles and interpreting the browns gas as ambient air. Renix does not have the MAF sensor.

Two things, first, there are two big designs; the Water4gas, and the Smack Booster. The water4gas design is more visual, as you can see by what I built. It's a little sturdier than what it looks, but I'm not terribly impressed. For testing, I'm happy with it because I can see what's going on inside. If this work like I hope it does, I will be building the smack booster to replace it, because the smack booster generates quite a bit more HHO than the water4gas design. I personally think the water4gas design is a little easier to build, but both require some mechanical inclination.


There is a problem with these devices. I'm not a chemist by any stretch of the imagination, so I'll explain it as best I know how. You are essentially electrolyzing the water into a gaseous state, which is pulled into your engine. You're not really splitting atoms here. Since you're turning the water into a gaseous state, the water lasts a very long time. Simple principle used by firefighters. Poke a hole in the roof to expose the fire itself, put the water on the flame, and the water will expand. You can make your water go further by turning it into water vapor, but were going further and turning it into gas. The HHO makes the combustion cycle more effecient, almost like running a higher octane, but with a cleaner burning fuel, so that tiny bit of extra drag on the alternator is miniscule, and almost irrelevant.

When you inject the HHO (sort of a play on words, not really a scientific term) into your engine, you will be burning the hydrogen, and the oxygen will be the byproduct coming out of the exhaust. Since the engine expects a certain level of oxygen to come out, what is actually coming out is a lot cleaner, and it will sense a lean condition, and automatically richen the fuel mixture. We don't want this, because we are adding an alternative, or supplemental fuel, to the mix. If we had a rich fuel mixture, on top of the HHO, it would decrease the mileage.

To get around this, you get what's called an EFIE, or electronic fuel injection enhancer. There are a couple forms of this. If you have a MAP sensor, you can get a MAP sensor enhancer. This connects to the MAP sensor, and allows you to manually adjust the a/f mixture. If you don't have a MAP sensor, then you can get an O2 sensor enhancer that will plug into the O2 sensor, and allow you to adjust the a/f mixture that way.

Other ways people are trying is by putting spacers in the O2 sensors to get them further out of the exhaust stream. Another thing I've heard is people putting foil on the O2 sensor to heat them up, but I'm not even remotely sure how that works. They're just dirt cheap mods. Most MAP sensor enhancers are about $40 to $50. The O2 sensor enhancers are $70 or so. If you have two O2 sensors, you need a dual sensor enhancer, or one that will plug to both sensors. You only need to connect to the O2 sensors that are upstream of the catalytic converter.

I have a MAP sensor enhancer. In fact, this is exactly what I have.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150263337052&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fmotors.shop.ebay.com%3A80%2F__%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm39%26_nkw%3D150263337052%26_nd1%3D%26submit.x%3D0%26submit.y%3D0%26_fvi%3D1

The downside to this? Well, you can't get something for nothing. You do have to power the electrolyzer using the alternator. Who has off road lights? Is that a significant drain on your alternator? Do you honestly think you lose gas mileage running them? That's about the draw. I used to drive a police Camaro that had a video camera, radars, radios, flashlight chargers, lightbar, two power supplies for all the strobe lights, rechargeable road flare lights, siren box, laptop computer that was hardwired to the car, and I plugged my cell phone into the cigarette lighter. The alternator was 105 amps. I know my Wrangler alternator is 117 amps. The people arguing are wasting more energy doing so, than what this little electrolyzer is going to use.

I should have this one installed this weekend. I will report my results on my '02 Wrangler. If it works, this unit will likely get installed on my '00 XJ, and I will build a smack booster for my Wrangler.

Oh, and here's the plans for the one I built. I think they charge you $100 for the book, but I found this searching the net.

http://mtpockets.net/watergas/page0.htm

 

[tugalo]

If this idea is good or bad, if you are for it or against it; this is what makes the best forum around.
After reading thru all the posts, I am of the opinion that injecting a bit of steam/water vapor might even enhance the benefits of the added hydrogen.

 

[ChrisTX]

If this idea is good or bad, if you are for it or against it; this is what makes the best forum around.
After reading thru all the posts, I am of the opinion that injecting a bit of steam/water vapor might even enhance the benefits of the added hydrogen.

http://mtpockets.net/watergas/page6.htm

http://mtpockets.net/watergas/page17.htm

I don't really have plans to mess with it, as I see this being better on an older vehicle, but it would cost you less than $10 to make that, and have parts left over. I've got everything to build one right now. If you were close to me, and wanted to do it, I'd say come over and knock yourself out.

 

[rworks]

Actually most oil companies controll the auto industry and buy the rights to all the gas saving gadgets.

And I suppose you can support this with actual evidence?

 

[lrainman]

Just a little update on my gas mileage. Todays fill up was 4.092 gallons and I traveled 113.9 miles, that is 27.8 mpg this was verified by others, that are not directly related to this testing.

 

[FlexdXJ]

just ask the idiots who get all strung out on meth and try to fly. Physics always wins. I f this does work hell yeah but i am not putting something on my Jeep until i know damn well its gonna work

 

[ChrisTX]

just ask the idiots who get all strung out on meth and try to fly. Physics always wins. I f this does work hell yeah but i am not putting something on my Jeep until i know damn well its gonna work

Sounds like me at first. I thought it was a scam, but the more I tried to prove it was a scam, the more I learned that it's not. The water4gas thing is kind of a gimmick. You can sign up to sell their books, and get a cut of the profit. That crap is all over the internet, so I wouldn't pay for those books. I posted a link to one of those books, so I saved you all that money. They don't have anything copyrighted. When you pay your money, they just send you the hidden URL, and then they give you a login and password for the forum so you can get their "customer service". That's all you're really paying for. I don't care to get involved in that crap, and I hate seeing people do that, because it makes this look like a scam. They push that stuff, and a lot of them don't know what they're talking about. I'm not a chemist, nor am I a mechanical engineer. I don't know what I'm really talking about, other than what I've learned by researching this so I can do it to my vehicles. If you want to do it, I suggest you do the same. Weed through the BS, and find the relevant info. Despite all those "free energy" websites who are just screwballs jumping on the bandwagon looking to make a quick buck off the water4gas scheme, the water4gas thing does work. It's not the best one out there, but it works. I built it because I can see what's going on with it. Once I determine some results from it, I'll build a smack booster, which I think is better, but not as visual as the water4gas design. I added more wire to mine than what the water4gas design says, because I want more HHO out of the single unit. You adjust it based on the catalyst.

The people who argue science don't understand the mechanics of how a motor works. I'm a little hesitant to do it, because I don't know anyone personally who has done it, but I'm wiring it up to a master switch, I'm fusing everything, and I can easily shut it all off quickly should something happen. There's no reason for it not to work. I can't say that I expect to see some insane mileage increases, but I think I will see some, and with gas at $4 a gallon, anything is worth a shot. Between my brother and I, we have about $180 into this project, and we have enough materials to build probably 6 more complete electrolyzers; even more than that for maybe another $20. The MAP sensor enhancer was $60.

 

[Ecomike]

Just a little update on my gas mileage. Todays fill up was 4.092 gallons and I traveled 113.9 miles, that is 27.8 mpg this was verified by others, that are not directly related to this testing.

What was your baseline mileage, the mileage before adding the HHO generator?

For what it is worth, it would be better to use at least half a tank to 3/4 of a tank of gas between fill ups for your tests. Also helps to use the same gas, same gas pump, same station, etc. to reduce other variables in the test. Even then it is easy to see a 3 mpg change just based on changing traffic conditions or changing destinations in driving paterns.

Is this a 4.0? What year model is it again?

 

[goodburbon]

resistance reading across the posts please...

I ask because I am amazed that you are getting a 15A draw on a 12V system through a conductor like...Water with Baking soda in it.

Basically I think you don't know how math works and are just throwing numbers out there until you give me a reading. And I won't trust any calculations you put out there, including mileage.

Also, are you using any fuel additives?


BTW, he isn't boiling water with his electrodes. Water vapor will occur naturally because 1. IT IS IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT, it gets hot there, and you have a bucket of water.

 

[lrainman]

Here you all go again, 1995 cherokee with 4.0, 5 speed, 4 inch lift, 32x11.5 bfg at, 4:10 gears. My jeep was tuned up 3127 miles ago, it got an average of 18 mpg that is in town and hwy. Sometimes a little less and sometimes a little more. Goodburbon, I will get you a resistance reading in ohms tonight when I get home, and for your information I know how to do simple mathmatics, I am in charge of a 2.5 MGD water treatment plant, and a water distribution system with 2900 water connections, you don't get into this position by being stupid!!! I told you before I have a 15 amp fuse inline for safety reasons and it has not blown the fuse yet so it isn't drawing 15 amps. I don't have access to a DC Amp meter otherwise I would have tested it for you already. Ecomike, I am using the same gas station, at the same time of day, and the same attendant so that the numbers will be as accurate as possible. I will take it down to half of a tank this time so that it takes more to fill up. This time was just to start getting some numbers out there for all of you to stew over which apparently worked. First tank was 21.6, this tank 27.8, so the average would be 24.7 mpg, the % gain would be 27.2 only doing this to prove my simple mathmatics ability. LOL:doh:

 

[lrainman]

Oh one more thing, no fuel additives on my 146,000 mile (give or take a few hundred) motor. Also I am not boiling the water, I have checked since the question was raised earlier. A few other friends have check on the boiling issue and they have not experienced any.

 

[4x4 Station Wagon]

This is the most rediculous post i have ever read in my life....... My theory short and sweet....... It works good! Unfortunately the first time i tried it i got 26.6 the second fill up 23.3 and today 21.5 my tacoma normally got 20. So I checked my bubbles per second and i am still around 2 and i started at 2.5 a second. So my computer is starting to sense and adjust.
Way to much energy has been spent trying to make people believe rather than just driving around getting our good gas mileage. You guys are way nicer than me.... I think we should shut up and let the closed minded people get low fuel mileage and anyone who wants help can PM someone and we or you will obviously be glad to help. If you want to try to tear me up on this response knock yourself dead because i wont be back to check...

 

[bowzone_mikey]

and you can be my guest while you blow your motor
questions for all you water/baking soda experts .... It would seem that most of you are too young to remember the little boat that came in cereal boxes that you filled with baking soda then put in the bath tub .....

where does all your dissolved solids go? .... what is your TDS for your feedwater? ... are you using distilled water? soft water? are you using any sort of Amine, phosphate or sulfite water treatment....

you are creating steam and vapour from water and baking soda ...injecting it into your fuel system and igniting the mix ....

And you think this is a good idea .....
I would take a close look to your oil consumption ... what you save in gas mileage you are gonna loose in components / seals and Oil

Irainman ... you dont loose anywater at all??? you put 1 liter in ..drive for 1000 miles and you still have exactly 1 liter of water in your tank ... Amazing ...

 

[Stallacrew]

and you can be my guest while you blow your motor
questions for all you water/baking soda experts .... It would seem that most of you are too young to remember the little boat that came in cereal boxes that you filled with baking soda then put in the bath tub .....

where does all your dissolved solids go? .... what is your TDS for your feedwater? ... are you using distilled water? soft water? are you using any sort of Amine, phosphate or sulfite water treatment....

you are creating steam and vapour from water and baking soda ...injecting it into your fuel system and igniting the mix ....

And you think this is a good idea .....
I would take a close look to your oil consumption ... what you save in gas mileage you are gonna loose in components / seals and Oil

Irainman ... you dont loose anywater at all??? you put 1 liter in ..drive for 1000 miles and you still have exactly 1 liter of water in your tank ... Amazing ...

You are a retard, all that is caught in the "bubbler" as it's called according to the Smack Booster. And it's a tablespoon per quart, and that last more than 500 miles.

Let them f-up their engine and stay off this fucking thread.

 

[wetdoggy]

Don't know if anyone saw it but myth busters did the HHO on a car (yes they tried to run on just the HHO) The can ran a few sec. (was left over gas the first time) when tryed again it did not run on it. From what I saw and what was stated the system does not put out enought HHO to do much of anything. Just my 2 cents.

 

[GSequoia]

You are a retard, all that is caught in the "bubbler" as it's called according to the Smack Booster. And it's a tablespoon per quart, and that last more than 500 miles.

Let them f-up their engine and stay off this fucking thread.

Anger problems?

Or maybe you just feel slighted because he pissed in your kool-aide.

Yes, kool-aide, drink up!

 

[bowzone_mikey]

I surely dont mean to Piss in anyones kool-aide ... But I really need to ask ....
On a great site and tech forum ..why would there be 7 pages ...eventully more of Snake oil??? BS

ya want 28 MPG .. lift your right foot a bit

 

[Stallacrew]

I do like Kool-Aide, however lifting my right foot (which I do, do) I only net 18 at best stock with 30's. I'm gonna try it, if it helps then you still wont believe and if not then I've lost what 5 gallons worth of gas money tops.