ok, buy American... but this is redickulous! :(

[Hunter-LynchburgVa]

well it is 112,000 less people "unemployed", and an illustration that the economy is on the upswing regardless of how you or i feel about the compnay who hired them.

Hunter

 

[RichP]

Sure, but those great walmart jobs are jobs that are a diminishing return, if you work at walmart you can't afford to shop there so I guess you support the dollar stores next step down on the food chain. Same with Mickydees, you may work there but you can't afford to eat there other than the freebie they give you during working hours so I guess it's one of the food kitchens further down the chain.

 

[Beezil]

well it is 112,000 less people "unemployed", and an illustration that the economy is on the upswing regardless of how you or i feel about the compnay who hired them.

Hunter

thats 112,000 more people that will never know what its like to earn more than 8 bucks an hour.......ever.

 

[REDXJ4FUN]

thats 112,000 more people that will never know what its like to earn more than 8 bucks an hour.......ever.

There is one thing that needs to be said and its something I run into all the time at work There are a large amount of people who aren't willing to earn more than 8 bucks an hour buy using their head and doing what they are suposed to do. Theres nothing worse for me than explaining some thing to a guy in his 20s in the most basic way posible to the point that an 8year old could do it only to come back 10 min later and they already have screwed it up. I can't come close to trying to figure out how many guys I have trained in the last 5 years only to have them quite or get fired because they don't show up for work and complain they don't make enough money. when i started I didn't make any money either but by busting my A$$ and using my head I've come along way and have gain a lot of repect from my customers and most of the people I work with except for the few that think I make to much but cant even come close to keeping up with me or being as versital as i am.(yes i'm blowing my own horn I guess but I take pride in my work)

 

[Hunter-LynchburgVa]

thats 112,000 more people that will never know what its like to earn more than 8 bucks an hour.......ever.

its too bad that some people are just fawkin stupid. but like Judge Smales in Caddyshack says, "the world needs ditch diggers too."

Hunter

 

[BLUTO]

We WERE known for our "Standard of Living"

The name "Walmart" always makes me sick to my stomach! uke: They are an underlying cause why many manufacturing jobs have gone overseas in the last 10 yrs. Levi Straus couldn't sew them cheap enough for WM over here, so after 100+ yrs of American made...they went offshore! Did you know that WM is China's 6th largest trading partner?! Many businesses watch WM to see what they can get away with in the treatment of their employees. Whether it be low wages ($8/hr x 2000 hrs/yr is less than poverty level), forced O.T. w/o pay, sexual harrassment, or undocumented (illegal alien) workers.... Other businesses are watching the WM juggernaut to see what they can get away with....then apply it to their own workforce. You are seeing a steady degrading of the American workforce :flamemad:
When I worked in the Detroit Building Trades, WM would not allow any local contractors to bid on their work (even if the work was low bid, on time, on budget). They invited us to come back and shop when the store was finished. If they won't support local tradesmen, then I don't support their business either. My only hope and dream is that they become Union organized and give them the f_cking they deserve atriot: . That my friends was how Labor Unions were formed in the first place; companies like WM helped to usher in organized labor early in the last century.
When all this Free Trade :bs: was being foisted upon us back in the late 80's, they said a "rising tide lifts all ships" (relating to how our trading with other 3rd World nations would build their economies up to our standards)......What they didn't tell you is: we would have to sink our ship deeper into the water to even things out!
BLUTO :lecture:

 

[Handlebars]

I can't comment on their front bumper but I have their rear one...

One thousand freakin dollars for a glorified bumper???? No wonder all our jobs are goin out to other countries! Don't we have an obligation to buy American made products? No wonder we are losin our shirts to foreigners!

Have you ever bought one of their bumpers? You have no right to bitch about the price if you haven't even seen one. :nono: I have their rear bumper, yes it cost over a grand. I actually use my Jeep, that bumper adds a lot of protection to the rear as well as giving my somewhere to haul bulky items around without resorting to a roof rack or sacraficing the interior space that was the main reason I chose a Cherokee.

I would much rather drive my Cherokee than work on it. I make good money working on cars all day long, the last thing I want to do when I get home is wrench on my junk. A thousand bucks is worth being able to open a box, bolt on a finished bumper and never look back at the decision with regret. That thing has been there for the last 3 years and 50,000 miles. If you would rather spend your time learning to do top quality design and manufacturing of parts for your Jeep then props to you. I'll see you on the trail! If you don't... Hansen makes a nice high clearance winch bumper that is well built and is make in America for less $$$ than the Bulletproof.

BTW, I never have set foot in Walmart and never intend to. It is big threat to the American Way of Life, it is even worse because they hide behind the American flag while eroding the standard of living everywhere they build a store. Do you shop at Walmart, Dogtired? Your bitching sounds like the price oriented consumer attitude that Walmart depended upon to become the 900 lb. gorilla of the retail world.

 

[Beezil]

There is one thing that needs to be said and its something I run into all the time at work There are a large amount of people who aren't willing to earn more than 8 bucks an hour buy using their head and doing what they are suposed to do.

yer preachin to the choir man.

I have half a shop of them....

piece work system.

non-skilled laborers required to make a piece equivalent of 7.50/hr. the rates are EASY most of them make rate while spending 20min worth of the hour in the bathroom smoking. The ones that really wanna work bring home 15 bucks/hr without a sweat.....I would rather have a shop filled with folks that earned 15 bucks an hour. that's some good cash to earn on an un-skilled job, never having graduated from highschool...

I believe in a system that rewards hard workers....that's getting harder to do.

if we don't get serious about protecting home industry and purchasing philosophy in this country, there won't be such a thing as "middle income bracket". There will just be fewer wealthy and a SHITLOAD of poor.

 

[dogtired]

Ok Handlebars,

However you spend your money that is not my concern, if you can afford it, then good for you. I have spent my money on good quality stuff, and spent plenty of it. I do realize you may have judged my post as me being a penny pinching tightwad. I spend my money as smart as I can and maximize my purchasing power. Thrifty maybe, tightwad no, there is a difference. For instance, I have spent $1,200 dollars for a decent mountain bike, when it was well worth over 2 grand at the time. Does that make me cheap? I think not. I think I am a pretty decent shopper, though I don't always make a perfect purchase. If I can't afford to purchase something, I save till I have the necessary funds to actually purchase it. I try not to be tempted by buying on credit.

Not trying to win sympathy with anyone, but here is my current situation so you can understand me a bit better. Up until now, I try to strive to maintain a zero balance on my credit card, while building a very good credit rating. Unfortunately, my luck turned for the worst, as I have had a major car accident this past year, in which I am still recovering physically as well as financially. I had to buy a reliable DD vehicle in a hurry, and I made a good choice in buying a Jeep... well except for the 4wd issue. hehe, like i said, I don't always make the right choice. In defense to that, I did buy my 2wd Jeep before I knew about Jeep clubs and cool Jeep forums like this.

I have learned a lot from good folks like you. In fact Handlebars, I do admire you in that you did that solitary trip and discover self awareness and reliance, that takes guts. I, on the other hand.. am just starting to learn and enjoy this sport. Yes, I am a newbie, we all gotta start from the beginning don't we? To each their own... right? It is ok, I can take the punches verbally... physically is another matter. hehehe. No, I didn't buy their bumper, and I do not even need to even to see it in person. I can see its quality made, I am not denying it. For example, remember there are hundreds, if not thousands of ebayers everyday who purchase their expensive stuff, by just pix and a brief description alone. Talk about faith, talk about a great American way!

I do admit when I was younger when I shopped Walmart, no denying that either. We all made mistakes, that's why we are human. I realized back then that Walmart is a 900lb gorilla as you say. I think it was a network tv show expose' discussing Walmart years back, when I learned Walmart was a beast as it is now. I do agree with you. However, you don't know me personally, and that doesn't give you the right to even judge me without all the facts present. Just don't make a potshot remark and think you are admonishing me. Please stick to the facts at hand, ok? I was just raising awareness to our fellow Jeepers, that I thought it was way too expensive of a bumper to even consider purchasing and I was just being verbal about it. I hope in this post I wasn't being a jerk about it, it wasn't my intention. Just hope that we are all still friends enjoying a friendly discussion, and still share ideas, and generally help each other out and learn! That was my main intention. And I try to learn everyday. Thanks for reading.

 

[Beezil]

dream is that they become Union organized and give them the f_cking they deserve . That my friends was how Labor Unions were formed in the first place; companies like WM helped to usher in organized labor early in the last century.

It would be awesome for everyone else in the world if the people of china began a labor movement.

Aside for a few niche industries, I think it will be hard to swing in the larger industries considering the HUGE population.

because, there are still HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of chinese that would KILL to make a few bucks a day working in a shithole barefoot....

chinese business owner quote of the day concerning workers demands?

"Next----------->"

 

[Majo]

The only thing that's gonna really help our economy in the situation described, is to start taxing goods that are produced out of the nation. If we tax to import them then it will cost businesses just as much to bring them in as it would to pay labor. A lot of the businesses in my area are going close to packing up and moving outta town. One company in specific had 300 laborer in 1990 or so and the union kept driving wages higher and higher. The company agreed to pay the wages, but when business is in a downturn, and they need to make more money they outsource more to china etc.. for cheaper parts. They have to balance out so they make a profit. If the company doesnt' make a profit then they wont' be there at all. Now today the same union is trying to drive for more wages....and now down to 100 or so employees. The same people that get payed 18 or 20 bucks and hour minimum, do the same exact thing someone getting 1$ an hour can do; push a button. It's only logical for a company that wants to make a profit to outsource, when it has people with no high school diploma demanding they get 18 an hour or they dont' work. Being young and seeing what I have in my life(living all throughout world and USA). The examples that I have seen is that Americans are getitng lazier and lazier and want more money for work they don't try hard at. I too believe in a system that rewards people for hard work, but not one that protects those that don't do anywork. The death of the middle income class is coming, I'm glad I can see these just having turned 20. I realize if things continure the way they are; there will be a high income class and a large low income class.

I think one of the things responsible for this is NAFTA. It's allowing companies to outsource freely to mexico where they can import goods with no tax restrictions.

I'm open to here other sides of how this all plays out, as I am not 1000% behind what I've seen. Granted this is a recolleciton of what I have seen in the world that I have lived in so far, it may not go for all parts I havent' seen in the few years I've been smart enough to keep my eye open and listen with my ears.

 

[5-90]

A significant problem is the continual increase in the Federal Minimum Wage that Congress keeps shoving on us. Most people think it will help - more dollars, right?

Sorta. It's nice to get more dollars, but each time the minimum wage goes up, the dollar gets smaller. All else being equal, we are far better off keeping minimum wages low, and keeping costs low as well. If Congress really wants to do something good for those of us who have to earn a living, then a "tax holiday" is in order.

The principal thing that Congress likes about minimum wage increases is that it increases their tax base, and pushes the working class into a higher tax bracket. This means more money for Congress to spend on things, and less for us to keep.

Why do you think states follow the example? There's talk in SF about kicking their minimum wage up to about $10 per hour - good for the city, bad for the people living there.

Increasing the minimum wage also increases the price of goods made and sold. That is what causes the effective devaluation of the dollar and makes us go broke.

Did I miss anything? I'm in a hurry - on my way to class!

5-90

 

[Grant]

My only hope and dream is that they become Union organized and give them the f_cking they deserve atriot: . That my friends was how Labor Unions were formed in the first place; companies like WM helped to usher in organized labor early in the last century.

Just the sort of kindling to start the union debate. :flame:

Instead of blaming WM, or Toyota, or Honda, or Nike, or Target, or any of the thousands of US companies that compete in a global economy, and have to answer to shareholders (most of whom are US citizens), how about the real culprits?

Unions - thank them kindly for starting the job drain overseas. More interested with greasing the pockets of their fatcats, politicians, and crime connections than worrying about their actual union members. Strikes, extortion, wage demands, benefits, drove labor costs through the roof. Is an uneducated, barely skilled auto assembly worker really worth over $30/hr (company cost, not actual worker salary) especially when he has a GUARENTEED job and can not be laid off? Yup, great way to help the Big 3 stay competitive with the Japanese car companies. Started in the 70's with electronics, 80's with the auto's, 90's with computers, and now in the 00's even customer service is driven overseas.

Consumers - American consumers want the cheapest product at the cheapest price. Do you think WM would be opening a superstore everyday of this year if there was NO demand? WM's expansion is driven by consumer demand.

Workers - Give me any good reason why an unskilled, uneducated American worker is worth even $8/hr? They are not even worth $8/day. American work ethic sucks, and it ain't improving. Instead of busting ass in an attempt to improve their station in life, they would rather not work and then bitch and complain about the people who are prepared to risk life and limb just to gain entry to the US (mostly illegal) just to do those jobs most Americans refuse to do. Tell me again how I must feel sorry for these hoi-poloi.

Stockholders - even if you do not own a single share certificate there is a good chance you still own stocks through an IRA or 401K. Even savings accounts rates are driven by the market (to a degree). Stockholders demand companies stay competitive and produce profits and dividends. Largely driven by greed (witness the dotbomb bubble) stockholders want a profit or dividend even if it costs their neighbor his job.

Get your heads out the sand, or your frikken butts. This is the 21st century. This is a global economy - whether you like it or not. Isolationism failed before 1950, it's dead - accept it. Adapt or die. Darwiniswm at it's finest.

Typical damn American's, don't blame the actual cause - rather blame those benefitting from being smart and adaptable.

Flame suit on

 

[Beezil]

great discussion.....probably since we're all in agreement about the main thing, keeping america strong!

I attend manufacturers conventions from time to time, read trade organization articles, catch a speaker here and there, and when the topic of "china" comes up (which is everytime) there seems to be a common theme with each author or speaker.

it is, simply put:

Do NOT expect washington to solve your problems for you. Solve your own problems in the way you conduct your business, and the way you purchase.

it would be great if we could play the "homeland security card" and institute import inspection processes in hope to tie up incoming cargo containers. i've heard this concept discussed before, described basically its sounds like a good idea, in fact it is a terrible idea! It is another one of those "big band-aid" solutions that easily solve SOME problems, and creat others.....its one of those rob peter to pay paul kinda things.....The other seemingly simple solution would be to increase tarrifs on certain imports.....didn't we try this already?

The real solution is a lot harder, it requires individual americans to do something they are not used to doing....saying "no" to the easy way out. It means inconvienencing yourself and doing a little bit extra as it serves the greater good.....what do i mean? i keep coming back to the same example "stay out of walmart".....you can use it as a catch phrase and apply it to a bunch of areas.

 

[Majo]

Are my views ok and not way outta wack for being as young as I am???

I only see things this way because I have based those decisions off what I have actually seen and experienced.


Is there a place for Unions in today's working society???

How can an American work who has no high school education be paid say.. 20 bucks an hour to push a button say on a CNC machine, when a foreigner with no education will do the same for 1 dollar an hour?
What justification is there to this?

I am still in the beliefe that hard workers, should get rewarded and that there should be no abosolute protection by a union for lazy pieces of shit.

 

[ChiXJeff]

Majo, the flip side of your argument is that the company is taking advantage of the worker. In general, there's not so much need today for unions as there was a hundred years ago.

There ain't no easy answer to this (I'm pretty pro-business myself.) I have no issues with employees getting together to say "we have a gripe" for anything that is directly related to the employee. I have a real problem when the group has access or control over anything else (UAW comes to mind.) As far as I'm concerned, if the employee doesn't show up for work, the company is right and proper to hire a replacement.

ChiXJeff

 

[bgcntry72]

Save me Jeebus...

My Homepage

 

[Handlebars]

However, you don't know me personally, and that doesn't give you the right to even judge me without all the facts present. Just don't make a potshot remark and think you are admonishing me. Please stick to the facts at hand, ok? I was just raising awareness to our fellow Jeepers, that I thought it was way too expensive of a bumper to even consider purchasing and I was just being verbal about it. I hope in this post I wasn't being a jerk about it, it wasn't my intention.

Per your request I am sticking to the facts at hand.

• Bulletproof makes a very expensive bumper
• I paid cold, hard cash to put one on my Cherokee.
• That bumper has provided me with reliable protection and "bulletproof" durability for 3 years and 50,000 miles of hard use.
• You have never even seen a Bulletproof bumper in person.
• You do not own and are not even considering purchasing any of their products.

However, you don't know me personally, and that doesn't give you the right to even judge me without all the facts present.

Why don't you give Bulletproof the same objectivity that you want to be judged by?


The following is not a potshot, it is only intended to raise your awareness of what sets apart from other forums. The people here take great pride in posting information for which they have first hand experience. Looking at the facts at hand I don't see any evidence that you are qualified to tell the WWW that Bulletproof bumpers are not even worth considering for purchase. I now see that you have this :bs: posted on 2 forums. You can post all of the :bs: you like on JU, that is what it is for. If you come here and post :bs: on a subject that I have first hand knowledge of then I will call :bs:.

The greatest thing about the internet is that everybody has a voice. The worst thing about the internet is that everybody has a voice. Please refrain from posting hearsay and unfounded rumors on . It is the last bastion of good, reliable Cherokee tech on the net. Thank you!

 

[Beezil]

Handlebars....

I have one simple question to ask you.

WHY IN THE NAME OF GOD DID YOU FEEL OBLIGATED TO TOW A FREAKIN GIANT DUMPTRUCK TIRE AROUND????? damn wierdo.

(now THAT is an "adequate" spare.)

 

[BLUTO]

competitive in a world economy

I've been reading this thread for the last 2 days, it has been kinda interesting and there are some varied opinions on here :spin3:
I have the (mis)fortune of seeing things from both sides of the issue, I'm in my early 40's and grew up in the Detroit area...most of my friends and neighbors derive some form of income directly or indirectly from the Auto Industry. I myself, am a journeyman Steamfitter and hold a State HVAC license and am college educated. I also have/had my own businesses. Presently, I work for DCX as a Pipefitter (UAW). I worked on building their Tech Center and they hired me to come on board about 5 yrs ago. I have witnessed some real stupid labor/management decisions that piss-off a lot of the "rank-n-file" members...often thru some sort of "horse trading". You (management) can throw away that stack of legitimate grievances, if you give this loser another chance. :flamemad:
On the other hand, our crews often bring back reports to our supervisors about equiptment that needs repair and they won't authorize (and give us materials) to do the work....so it festers until it blows-up and becomes a fingerpointing circus :explosion
There probably won't much of a UAW left by 2020, this is mostly because of changing attitudes in the business community, apathy and selfishness amongst the membership, and plain ole' Politics. There are approx. 300K members now, and the employers are looking at upwards of 15% to 20% attrition per contract (every 4 yrs). Some of these jobs will be replaced by advances in technology, some by non-union suppliers who are now becomming active in the assembly of vehicles, and some layoffs. I may be laid-off in the next several years (due only to my low senority status) so I am making plans and getting things started so that the ball keeps rolling
One thing that people often forget or take for granted is the things that the Labor movement did for working class people over the last 75 years. Paid Vacations, Sick Leave, Medical Benefits, Pensions, 40 Hour Work Week, Overtime Pay, Helped Form Apprenticeships.
On the last note, over the last 25 yrs, states that went "right to work", the enrollment in US Dept. of Labor approved apprenticeships has fallen over 75%. The rest of your benefits and things that I haven't listed are disappearing too, because of Global Competition and the race to the bottom in wages. General Electric had a big meeting in Mexico a few years back; they told ALL their suppliers to move their manufacturing operations down there OR risk losing GE as a customer. That way GE could ask for lower prices from their suppliers, due to the lack of labor costs. iratefla
Long and short of it...when the Unions are gone, so will be the checks and balances in the workforce. Think about it, Do you think Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and the other foreign automakers are going to continue to pay their American assembly workers $20/hr after the UAW is gone? :dunno:
There is no "big stick" of being "organized" to hang over their head :twak: anymore, so their fate is up to the "generosity" of their Multinational employers. And when their wages drop, so will the surrounding community's and the tax base too.

Enough of the pro-Union side of my :lecture: , if any of you out there reading this are still in the workforce (and I suspect 99% of you are),...get ready for some big changes to your standard of living in the next 5 years. Get your ass back to school,....whether that is learning to weld, be a better wrench, learn about alternative medicene, getting your journeymans license...whatever! You will find that you have to compete against someone whose standard of living is much more primitive than yours and will work for much less $$$ than you....therefore you must be smarter, faster, and more innovative atriot: Those who won't invest in themselves are THE DOOMED!

BLUTO