Kerry Concedes

[TRNDRVR]

Just clicked on my reputation for my post on this thread.do you people think I actually care how many red dots I get by my name?If standing up for what I belive in gets me little red dots under my name so be it !I will rejoice in them. :us:

:wave:

 

[XJEEPER]

Funny thing about the TRNDRVR, he's usually the first in line to help out folks in need, doesn't expect an award for it and acts much more Christ-like than many Christians I know........"by your works ye shall know them". God knows what is in our heart and will judge us by our actions.

 

[ACE]

Funny thing about the TRNDRVR, he's usually the first in line to help out folks in need, doesn't expect an award for it and acts much more Christ-like than many Christians I know........"by your works ye shall know them". God knows what is in our heart and will judge us by our actions.

Amen to that.

 

[Eagle]

To be honest I don't like seeing my tax dollars going to anything or to anybody that doesn't help me in return. Thats why I pay them. To make MY roads better and to my MY kids smarter(this is still not very likley) I don't like my tax dollars work for welfare...Not to individuals and not to companys. I don't think it makes the country any better.

Corporate welfare is a short-term solution in search of the real problem.

How many of you remember that not too many years ago Chrysler Corporation, under Lee Iaccoca, was about to go belly-up. Our tax dollars bailed them out, Iaccoca made a fortune, and then what happened? Once the company was solvent again, it was sold to Daimler-Benz, the stockholders made heaps of money, and the taxpayers (as usual) took it in the ear.

I'm sure there are other examoles that economics majors might remember. That's not my "thing" so the Chrysler fiasco is the only one I remember.

 

[Rev Den]

Umm....Eagle, Chrysler repaid the loan.

Rev

 

[Darky]

Funny thing about the TRNDRVR, he's usually the first in line to help out folks in need, doesn't expect an award for it and acts much more Christ-like than many Christians I know........"by your works ye shall know them". God knows what is in our heart and will judge us by our actions.

You're right about how God sees in our hearts, but wrong about him judging us on our actions. To paraphrase (I think its in James Brian or Fergie will probably know): You are saved by grace, and not by works, lest any man should boast. Our actions and wrods can all look very good, but its the heart that God looks at and if you've given it to him and believe in Jesus Christ as you Savior and that he died on the cross, you will be saved. Our actions should reflect the decision we've made but they aren't what gets us into Heaven.

 

[DrMoab]

Amen to that.

Even though I have said things here that might seem contrary. I also have to agree.
Funny how an election can bring out so many diferent views from so many diferent people.
I just hope now that its over everybody will quit harping on people for their political views(me included)

 

[XJEEPER]

You're right about how God sees in our hearts, but wrong about him judging us on our actions. To paraphrase (I think its in James Brian or Fergie will probably know): You are saved by grace, and not by works, lest any man should boast. Our actions and wrods can all look very good, but its the heart that God looks at and if you've given it to him and believe in Jesus Christ as you Savior and that he died on the cross, you will be saved. Our actions should reflect the decision we've made but they aren't what gets us into Heaven.

I'm in partial agreement, but to paraphase leaves out the very important Verse 10:

Ephesians 2:8-10

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Grace is God's gift to us, faith and good works are required of us to be worthy of this gift.

I believe in God and that Jesus Christ is our Savior and atoned for our sins, but I also believe that I have the responsibility and obligation to do the
best I can while I'm here on Earth.
The Atonement also provides a means to repent for ones sins here on Earth
and forsake them (do them no more), showing by our works and examples that we are striving to be more Christ-like (I've got a long way to go) and are constantly trying to improve ourselves and learn from our mistakes/sins.

I believe that we are saved by the grace of God, through the Atonement, and
will receive our place in Heaven, by our works.

 

[Matthew Currie]

To be honest I don't like seeing my tax dollars going to anything or to anybody that doesn't help me in return. Thats why I pay them. To make MY roads better and to my MY kids smarter(this is still not very likley) I don't like my tax dollars work for welfare...Not to individuals and not to companys. I don't think it makes the country any better. The weak get weaker when you give them free hand outs. To be honest I think we need to quit giving hand outs to everyone...The airlines,other countries,welfare people,amtrak,and countless others too.
OK I'm done. sorry guys Im tired

Be careful what you wish for. What if I and everybody else decided to agree with you? Can you really afford to pick up the cost of your kids' education, which is now borne overhwelmingly by those who are not receiving it? Can you really afford to bear the cost of your roads which is now borne to a great extent by those who don't drive on them? How about fire departments? I've never had a fire. Why should I pay for them to put out other people's fires? Well, you can see where this is going, can't you? It's usually accepted that some public works and activities are sufficiently beneficial to the society as a whole that they should be funded globally, rather than on the basis of who uses them or how much. You seem to be arguing otherwise. I think you should do the math and follow the implications of your idea to their logical end before you go too much further with it.

Of course anything can be overdone - and will be eventually, and to the minds of many has already been and then some. But I don't think that means we should privatize everything or fund every government service by user fees (and I think that if you stop to consider you'll realize you don't quite think so either).

 

[DrMoab]

Be careful what you wish for. What if I and everybody else decided to agree with you? Can you really afford to pick up the cost of your kids' education, which is now borne overhwelmingly by those who are not receiving it? Can you really afford to bear the cost of your roads which is now borne to a great extent by those who don't drive on them? How about fire departments? I've never had a fire. Why should I pay for them to put out other people's fires? Well, you can see where this is going, can't you? It's usually accepted that some public works and activities are sufficiently beneficial to the society as a whole that they should be funded globally, rather than on the basis of who uses them or how much. You seem to be arguing otherwise. I think you should do the math and follow the implications of your idea to their logical end before you go too much further with it.

Of course anything can be overdone - and will be eventually, and to the minds of many has already been and then some. But I don't think that means we should privatize everything or fund every government service by user fees (and I think that if you stop to consider you'll realize you don't quite think so either).

Somewhere in this thread or another I said I want my tax dollars to go toward roads and and other stuff we "need". I just don't think we need to fund finding convicted fellons a job...Yes we do this. My wife unfortunaly is the head of a program here in Utah doing just this. Do we need to fund a rail system no one rides? IMHO NO. Do we need to fund government programs to protect some abstract snail somewhere? NO. Do we need to fund the Aids epedemic in Ethiopia? Again I don't think so. I think if we would streamline what we spend our money on and get rid of all the programs that only teach people to live off the government instead of working towards it themselfs then we would have alot more money for roads,schools,fire and police...The stuff that really matters.

 

[Matthew Currie]

Somewhere in this thread or another I said I want my tax dollars to go toward roads and and other stuff we "need". I just don't think we need to fund finding convicted fellons a job...Yes we do this. My wife unfortunaly is the head of a program here in Utah doing just this. Do we need to fund a rail system no one rides? IMHO NO. Do we need to fund government programs to protect some abstract snail somewhere? NO. Do we need to fund the Aids epedemic in Ethiopia? Again I don't think so. I think if we would streamline what we spend our money on and get rid of all the programs that only teach people to live off the government instead of working towards it themselfs then we would have alot more money for roads,schools,fire and police...The stuff that really matters.

Put that way it's a little different from how you put it in the response I quoted above. Put that way it makes much more sense, even though we might disagree on the details of the dividing line between what matters and what doesn't.

One might argue, for example, that finding convicted felons a job, while it entails being nicer to the felons than you might feel they deserve, might have social benefits in reduced recidivism, increased tax participation, etc. that outweigh the cost, just as the Reagan-funded study on the Job Corps, mentioned in another post above, discovered, to the surprise of some. Maybe, maybe not, but the idea at least isn't inherently ridiculous.

 

[DrMoab]

. Maybe, maybe not, but the idea at least isn't inherently ridiculous.

I think I just said it the wrong way....As far as the fellons go and getting them jobs...The ones who really want to work...They will find work. This program my wife is doing now goes kind of like this: These guys get out of prison and go live under the bridge somewhere...When their PO asks them what they are doing to find work they tell him nothing...Well part of there agreement when they get out of prison is that they have to be looking for work. Well they won't so their PO sends them to my wife...she goes around the community to try and find willing buisness to let these guys come work for them free of charge...You and I(well not you because its a state run thing) Pick up the bill. Only problem is...these guys still won't work. The work long enough to get another bottle of port and its back to the bridge. So really all we are doing is buying them another bottle of wine. Like I said..the ones who want to work usualy can go..on there own and get jobs at the same places my wife is sending them at the states expence. Thats what I don't like about it.

 

[Matthew Currie]

I think I just said it the wrong way....As far as the fellons go and getting them jobs...The ones who really want to work...They will find work. This program my wife is doing now goes kind of like this: These guys get out of prison and go live under the bridge somewhere...When their PO asks them what they are doing to find work they tell him nothing...Well part of there agreement when they get out of prison is that they have to be looking for work. Well they won't so their PO sends them to my wife...she goes around the community to try and find willing buisness to let these guys come work for them free of charge...You and I(well not you because its a state run thing) Pick up the bill. Only problem is...these guys still won't work. The work long enough to get another bottle of port and its back to the bridge. So really all we are doing is buying them another bottle of wine. Like I said..the ones who want to work usualy can go..on there own and get jobs at the same places my wife is sending them at the states expence. Thats what I don't like about it.

Explained that way, it sounds like a pretty poorly conceived program. It must be very frustrating, especially when your wife is the one trying to make an unworkable scheme work.

 

[Brian Felts]

:wave:

Just because we disagree politically doesnt mean I hold any ill will towards you.But the time has come in america where we must take a stand for our morals even if it means facing persecution or financial hardship.My stance on the president has nothing to do with the way I feel about you there are good people in both parties.

 

[DrMoab]

Explained that way, it sounds like a pretty poorly conceived program. It must be very frustrating, especially when your wife is the one trying to make an unworkable scheme work.

Ya know...the funny thing is...She is doing a good job at it. Her and two others are putting it together and they are getting alot of support from the rest of the state. It would be a great program except for the simple fact that the type of people she is trying to help just don't want any. Her job is largely the reason I feel the way I do about welfare. Before she started this job she was just doing normal welfare type work and she would get so sick of these 20 year old girls with three kids from three diferent fathers comming in there and expecting the state to just take care of them. Then if they were forced to look for work they would act like the world hated them. These are the people that in my opinion shouldn't get anything. The only problem is the kids. They don't deserve the position they are put in. If it wasn't for them I would just say let them all starve. They don't deserve any better.