Is E85 really a Con?

[Flip94ta]

Most of you will shout yes at my title because of the 30% loss in mileage for the 5% savings at the pump.

I think one of the biggest problems facing E85 is Flexfuel vehicles. Flexfuel is BS. Why build a motor to run on 87 octane and then tell people to go green and run it at 105 octane. All motors will lose mileage if this is done. weither is 87, 93, 105 or 116 octane. Yes I know that ethanol has less energy content than gasoline, but what if someone bulit a motor to run on just E85. You could go from 87 octane friendly 9.5 to one compression to E85 105 octane friendly 13 to 1.

The added torque and HP could probably offset half of the loss mileage and make E85 more competive at the pump. Too bad most folks don't have regular access to E85 pumps. There is just one here in nashville.

I am not sure how much interest there is in this with gas being $2 a gallon in most places.

Thoughts?

 

[BrettM]

-manufacturers can't justify building E85 only vehicles because the availability isn't high enough

-E85 suppliers can't justify expanding the availability if manufacturers aren't making E85 capable vehicles.

-Flexfuel vehicles solve both of these problems, and eventually when the availablity is high enough manufacturers will make E85 only vehicles.

 

[cumorglas]

but ultimately still a con, when you do the math. the total amount of energy put into the manufacture and even worse distribution does not justify what we get out of it.

even if we get the transportation cost down with a separate system of pipelines and related nonsense there is still the problem of transporting all that raw material to be fermented. the energy expenditure on that get progressively more ridiculous the further you get from the farm.

there is a reason these plants mostly operate in the corn belt and under HUGE subsidies.

 

[RBFab]

I think its all a matter of cuting ourselves off FOREIGN OIL.Who cares if it would cost a little more.Are we all really so greedy that we'll keep supporting crazy terrorist governments just to save a few bucks at the pump every fill-up?If so,we deserve what we get!!!

 

[Ghost]

I still think Hydrogen is the way to go. However a friend recently informed me that they main reason it is not being adapted and used is the manufacturing cost is a lot more then oil refining.

 

[vetteboy]

I think its all a matter of cuting ourselves off FOREIGN OIL.Who cares if it would cost a little more.Are we all really so greedy that we'll keep supporting crazy terrorist governments just to save a few bucks at the pump every fill-up?If so,we deserve what we get!!!

Wow, someone's a slave to the media...

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Ethanol is a stupid waste of energy :flame:

 

[rock rash]

I still think Hydrogen is the way to go. However a friend recently informed me that they main reason it is not being adapted and used is the manufacturing cost is a lot more then oil refining.

Not entirely true...For oil, It must be drilled contained and shipped. Hydrogen, the main expense is to get a machine up and running. The machine uses solar energyt to seperate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen in water...and it is completely renewable...I believe Hydrogen is the way to go, but oil companies and helpin with some "expenses" at automotive factories to help keep vehicles running on oil...

 

[IcedXJ]

Not entirely true...For oil, It must be drilled contained and shipped. Hydrogen, the main expense is to get a machine up and running. The machine uses solar energyt to seperate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen in water...and it is completely renewable...I believe Hydrogen is the way to go, but oil companies and helpin with some "expenses" at automotive factories to help keep vehicles running on oil...

bingo

Hyrdogen is something that may not be used so widely ever as are typical fossil fuel is currently, but I am in full support to get that technology refined so H cars are cheaper.

 

[CRASH]

The success of all of these technologies hinges on one factor: market demand.

Produce a product that is cheaper to operate than dyno juice and produces comparable power and all of the production and distribution problems will disappear. The masses will beat a path to your door.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

The success of all of these technologies hinges on one factor: market demand.

Produce a product that is cheaper to operate than dyno juice and produces comparable power and all of the production and distribution problems will disappear. The masses will beat a path to your door.

That's it right there. Few things store as many BTU/lb as petroleum as cheaply as petroleum does. Historically, alcohol was proposed not to free us from foreign oil, and not to provide cheaper fuel, but to provide cleaner fuel (if you ignore the emmissions from distillation). It's not an energy saving process. It's intended to reduce smog in high congestion areas and, through DOE subsidies, support farmers who lost their Ag subsidies to Bush's cost cutting .

 

[CRASH]

support farmers who lost their Ag subsidies to Bush's cost cutting .

Almost, except that Bush re-upped the subsidies, post 9-11, that Clinton had phased out......

We almost had a free market economy on farm products in 2001, but alas, the mega powerful ag lobby greased the right palms.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Almost, except that Bush re-upped the subsidies, post 9-11, that Clinton had phased out......

We almost had a free market economy on farm products in 2001, but alas, the mega powerful ag lobby greased the right palms.

Last I heard (few weeks ago on morning radio) farmers were bracing for a new round of cuts.

 

[CRASH]

If, by cuts, you mean a slight drop in the rate of increased cost of living and inflation adjustments, then yes, that could be true.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

If, by cuts, you mean a slight drop in the rate of increased cost of living and inflation adjustments, then yes, that could be true.

I don't know - it was early morning. One guy interviewed said he'd have to sell out if the proposed cuts went into effect.

edit: I checked back. I did put a smilie on that Bush comment - see new sig

edit: edit: earlier observation still applies:

Ethanol is a stupid waste of energy :flame:

 

[RichP]

Honda has a complete hydrogen system, car and generator that hangs on the wall of your garage, main issue is residual and repeat business. Sell the car and generator and thats it, no more trickle down, honda was trying to figure out how to lease the generator so they would get a monthly income generated but they quickly figured out that building an O2 generator is a home shop project, an O2 generator seperates Oxy and hydrogen, in the navys case we pump the hydrogen overboard as a dangerous waste product, submarines have been using the technology for over 40 years, unit is about the size of a small side by side refrigerator but thats typical govt design, could be alot smaller.

Iceland is about 80% hydrogen now as I remember, might be higher, in their transportation system. Hydrogen fueling stations are very common there.

 

[CW]

Brazil is over 90% ethanol now. Sure it took a military government to impose the new standards on people over the last decade or so, but it shows that it is possible. They are a nearly self contained energy curcuit now. Plants grown and refined in country. Our main problem is that it is not economically viable for farmers to grow crops for ethanol production while it is in the much poorer Brazil.

 

[RichP]

Brazil is over 90% ethanol now. Sure it took a military government to impose the new standards on people over the last decade or so, but it shows that it is possible. They are a nearly self contained energy curcuit now. Plants grown and refined in country. Our main problem is that it is not economically viable for farmers to grow crops for ethanol production while it is in the much poorer Brazil.

Brazil can do it because of one reason or actually one crop, Sugar cane, Cuba could do it too with their sugar cane crop as could most countries that can grow sugar cane. Brazil also has an issue with a certain northern oil producing neighbor that was also an incentive...

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Brazil is over 90% ethanol now. Sure it took a military government to impose the new standards on people over the last decade or so, but it shows that it is possible. They are a nearly self contained energy curcuit now. Plants grown and refined in country. Our main problem is that it is not economically viable for farmers to grow crops for ethanol production while it is in the much poorer Brazil.

Brazil is about 80% hydroelectric, although environmental concerns are putting a damper on further development. Environmental concerns have also been raised in relation to sugar cane production but it's hard to get that message past the 'Brazil is energy independent and you can be too' hype.

Transportation fuel consumption per capita in brazil is way low compared to the US. That fact, combined with an existing sugar industry make Brazil's ethanol production (the development of which cost some 10's of billions of dollars) viable when oil prices are high. On the other hand, when sugar prices spiked recently a shift in production from fuel to sugar threatened to leave all those ethanol fueled cars stranded. The Brazilian government responded to the shortage by reducing the gas/ethanol blend from 25% to 20%.

A final note for all you free market anarchist - The development of Brazil's ethanol industry was mandated by government (both military and elected) and subsidized by tax payers' dollars. Ethanol is still taxed less than gasoline. Don't expect to switch fuels without paying for it, one way or another.

Some growers in the US have got a greedy eye on some government subsidy prospects, but ethanol from corn could never replace oil imports in the US

 

[luvme88xj]

The U of MN is getting a grant to develope a conversion kit to modifie vehicals to run E85. Being that this is the state of ethinol plants. Driving past any one plant is like driving through a keg party...beeeeer