Iron Rock Long Arm Upgrade

[ktm racer 419]

exactly. most people who say they "beat the shit" out of their jeeps just go in a mud hole and smash the throttle

or go in a boulder hole and mash the throttle

 

[s14unimog]

would you swap an axle weaker than a dana30 under your rig? i dont think so. just how i wouldnt make my front suspension weaker than stock

I still don't get why you think its weaker, you get one dent in either the upper or lower factory arms and they're prone to folding; they're designed to collapse. It's only controlling the rotational movement of axle. If anything I'm more worried about ripping off the LCA axle mount tabs than shearing a 10.9 bolt under braking.

 

[ExTankerGuy]

Wow. This thread has more sack riders than the slides at the state fair!

 

[1990JEEPXJ]

I still don't get why you think its weaker.

because stock suspensions have two of those 10mm bolts...this kit only uses one. the castor thing isnt the only problem people see. but its that one little bolt being what holds your entire front end in place, essentially.

those bolts arent strong. when i put my RE lift on, i snapped one of the UCA bolts simply tightening it down with a 1/2" drive socket. never felt like it got tight, then just snapped. im not as worried about why it broke but more with the simple fact that it did so that easily. a bolt that can break that easily shouldnt be trusted as much as the IRO kit does. thats just my opinion.

 

[s14unimog]

but its that one little bolt being what holds your entire front end in place, essentially.

essentially no it doesn't. The lower connections, with 2 much larger M14's, are what is responsible for holding your front end in place. That M10 ONLY resists axle wrap. I promise you this.

 

[1990JEEPXJ]

essentially no it doesn't. The lower connections, with 2 much larger M14's, are what is responsible for holding your front end in place. That M10 ONLY resists axle wrap. I promise you this.

so if it breaks youll be fine? youll be able to drive off the trail to fix your mangled suspension and steering because its all still held in place by the lower control arm bolts right?

 

[ktm racer 419]

essentially no it doesn't. The lower connections, with 2 much larger M14's, are what is responsible for holding your front end in place. That M10 ONLY resists axle wrap. I promise you this.

im not gonna go all crazy suspension mathematical engineer nazi on you. but you are incorrect. if the lowers were mounted in the exact center of the axle tube, then you may be onto something, but alas, they are not.

go take out your upper control arm bolt and see what happens:shhh:

and i still wouldnt want one 10mm bolt controlling my axle wrap regardless.

ive lost both my upper control arms before. it bent my shocks,ruined my driveshaft, pinion yoke, and bent my steering. it wasnt a fun day

 

[XJLI]

essentially no it doesn't. The lower connections, with 2 much larger M14's, are what is responsible for holding your front end in place. That M10 ONLY resists axle wrap. I promise you this.

nominated

 

[Prosonic]

essentially no it doesn't. The lower connections, with 2 much larger M14's, are what is responsible for holding your front end in place. That M10 ONLY resists axle wrap. I promise you this.

Personally, that right there is the reason I wouldn't run this setup myself.
I don't trust a single 10mm bolt to handle the torque getting put through the axle.

The stock setup gives you two 10mm bolts to share the load. Trusting just one just seems like asking for trouble. Especially once you add in larger tires (puts more leverage on the mount) and lower gearing (puts more torque through the axle)

The minimum size bolt I would trust in this application is 5/8" grade 8 (or higher)

 

[WAD357]

essentially no it doesn't. The lower connections, with 2 much larger M14's, are what is responsible for holding your front end in place. That M10 ONLY resists axle wrap. I promise you this.

Dude for real? you should probably just stop providing false information before someone that really doesnt know anything listens to you...

" Some guy on the interwebz told me i dont need upper control arms so im taking them out to gain flex"


HEADLINES " 16 year old injured after Jeep Crash

 

[MaxxXJ]

I don't see how you shear a 8.8 or 10.9 when their shear strengths are


8.8: 120 ksi (825 MPa)
10.9: 150 ksi (1035 MPa).

And considering 1 ksi is a 1000 psi, it's hard to believe a 10mm bolt "sheared" off... I could see the nut rattling loose and falling out but 150,000 psi of force seems unlikely. Also keep in mind when you over torque the bolt and just tighten the piss out of it, it greatly reduces the strength of the bolt with that being said those 2 applications that "broke" prolly tightened the Piss it out of it, and caused it to prematurely break... The torque specs are there for reason and so is red threadlock

 

[1990JEEPXJ]

since 8.8 = grade 5 and 10.9 = grade 8 then those values are tensile strengths. the shear strengths are about 60% of those values, 75 and 90 ksi. and that amount of force doesnt seem as bad when you convert those ksi values to pounds force based on the bolt shank diameter

shear strength in pounds = shear capability(ksi) x PI x (radius of bolt)^2 or, the shear capability x area of a circle, using the radius of the bolt.

which for a 10mm 10.9 bolt would be 90,000xPIx(.19685in) ^2 = nearly 11,000lbs force shear breaking strength

and a 1/2" grade 8 bolt will shear at nearly 18,000lbs. more than a 50% increase.

most on here recommend using 5/8 bolts for the upper on 3 links which has a shear strentgh exceeding 27,000lbs. nearly a 150% increase over the stock 10mm. :lecture:

im just sayin...

 

[ktm racer 419]

I don't see how you shear a 8.8 or 10.9 when their shear strengths are


8.8: 120 ksi (825 MPa)
10.9: 150 ksi (1035 MPa).

And considering 1 ksi is a 1000 psi, it's hard to believe a 10mm bolt "sheared" off... I could see the nut rattling loose and falling out but 150,000 psi of force seems unlikely. Also keep in mind when you over torque the bolt and just tighten the piss out of it, it greatly reduces the strength of the bolt with that being said those 2 applications that "broke" prolly tightened the Piss it out of it, and caused it to prematurely break... The torque specs are there for reason and so is red threadlock

i have sheared a bushel of 10mm bolts grade 8.8 and 10.9 in my front suspension. i dont need numbers thrown at me to prove me wrong

 

[bert01xj]

Ktm they don't make bolts that can handle you.

 

[s14unimog]

so if it breaks youll be fine? youll be able to drive off the trail to fix your mangled suspension and steering because its all still held in place by the lower control arm bolts right?

I'm not suggesting that it will work, but I am suggesting that its not supporting the axle alone. Instead of arguing this point back and forth, and since I'm in no way supported by IRO for this argument, I'm going to suggest time will tell. I have no ego to protect here. I design farm equipment for a living and have seen my fare share of heavy load or high impact failures. I will continue to monitor my suspension as I always have and will promptly let those know of problems I encounter. It's all that you can do.

im not gonna go all crazy suspension mathematical engineer nazi on you. but you are incorrect. if the lowers were mounted in the exact center of the axle tube, then you may be onto something, but alas, they are not. go take out your upper control arm bolt and see what happens:shhh: and i still wouldnt want one 10mm bolt controlling my axle wrap regardless. ive lost both my upper control arms before. it bent my shocks,ruined my driveshaft, pinion yoke, and bent my steering. it wasnt a fun day

Noted. As I said, time will tell. If a rig is only as strong as its weakest link then that component will eventually show its self.

nominated

you're cool guy. :wave1:

Personally, that right there is the reason I wouldn't run this setup myself. I don't trust a single 10mm bolt to handle the torque getting put through the axle. The stock setup gives you two 10mm bolts to share the load. Trusting just one just seems like asking for trouble. Especially once you add in larger tires (puts more leverage on the mount) and lower gearing (puts more torque through the axle) The minimum size bolt I would trust in this application is 5/8" grade 8 (or higher)

yea... 5/8's that's bigger... I like that... Ya know cause 3/4" is just excessive right?

Dude for real? you should probably just stop providing false information before someone that really doesnt know anything listens to you..." Some guy on the interwebz told me i dont need upper control arms so im taking them out to gain flex" HEADLINES " 16 year old injured after Jeep Crash

^ chill out dude, I've not provided false information. At this point we're discussing whether the shear strength of a 10mm bolt is sufficient for the application. Some feel it is, some do not. There were real world figures provided and contradicting experiences provided. This discussion has little to do with your example. Not to mention you just dropped in to question my morals; don't be a dick.

I don't see how you shear a 8.8 or 10.9 when their shear strengths are
8.8: 120 ksi (825 MPa)
10.9: 150 ksi (1035 MPa).
And considering 1 ksi is a 1000 psi, it's hard to believe a 10mm bolt "sheared" off... I could see the nut rattling loose and falling out but 150,000 psi of force seems unlikely. Also keep in mind when you over torque the bolt and just tighten the piss out of it, it greatly reduces the strength of the bolt with that being said those 2 applications that "broke" prolly tightened the Piss it out of it, and caused it to prematurely break... The torque specs are there for reason and so is red threadlock

I appreciate the help but it looks as though their minds are set.

since 8.8 = grade 5 and 10.9 = grade 8 then those values are tensile strengths. the shear strengths are about 60% of those values, 75 and 90 ksi. and that amount of force doesnt seem as bad when you convert those ksi values to pounds force based on the bolt shank diameter. shear strength in pounds = shear capability(ksi) x PI x (radius of bolt)^2 or, the shear capability x area of a circle, using the radius of the bolt. which for a 10mm 10.9 bolt would be 90,000xPIx(.19685in) ^2 = nearly 11,000lbs force shear breaking strength and a 1/2" grade 8 bolt will shear at nearly 18,000lbs. more than a 50% increase. most on here recommend using 5/8 bolts for the upper on 3 links which has a shear strentgh exceeding 27,000lbs. nearly a 150% increase over the stock 10mm. :lecture:
im just sayin...

And those numbers are based on an ideal application. So ultimately your end application would play a larger role on the accuracy of those values (i.e. stretched/corroded/damaged bolts.) Only time will tell though so we shall see.

Ktm they don't make bolts that can handle you.

apparently...

 

[sunburned]

And finally the latest IRO argument has again come down to bolt size and shear strengths.

I'll stick to my Poly 3 link with 9/16" grade 8 bolts in every joint.

 

[vetteboy]

I don't see how you shear a 8.8 or 10.9 when their shear strengths are


8.8: 120 ksi (825 MPa)
10.9: 150 ksi (1035 MPa).

And considering 1 ksi is a 1000 psi, it's hard to believe a 10mm bolt "sheared" off... I could see the nut rattling loose and falling out but 150,000 psi of force seems unlikely. Also keep in mind when you over torque the bolt and just tighten the piss out of it, it greatly reduces the strength of the bolt with that being said those 2 applications that "broke" prolly tightened the Piss it out of it, and caused it to prematurely break... The torque specs are there for reason and so is red threadlock

Someone doesn't know what they're talking about.

I appreciate the help but it looks as though their minds are set.

A very big problem with the internet: someone doesn't always know when someone doesn't know what they're talking about.

since 8.8 = grade 5 and 10.9 = grade 8 then those values are tensile strengths. the shear strengths are about 60% of those values, 75 and 90 ksi. and that amount of force doesnt seem as bad when you convert those ksi values to pounds force based on the bolt shank diameter

shear strength in pounds = shear capability(ksi) x PI x (radius of bolt)^2 or, the shear capability x area of a circle, using the radius of the bolt.

which for a 10mm 10.9 bolt would be 90,000xPIx(.19685in) ^2 = nearly 11,000lbs force shear breaking strength

and a 1/2" grade 8 bolt will shear at nearly 18,000lbs. more than a 50% increase.

most on here recommend using 5/8 bolts for the upper on 3 links which has a shear strentgh exceeding 27,000lbs. nearly a 150% increase over the stock 10mm. :lecture:

im just sayin...

^^ this guy has more of an idea what he's talking about.

And those numbers are based on an ideal application. So ultimately your end application would play a larger role on the accuracy of those values (i.e. stretched/corroded/damaged bolts.) Only time will tell though so we shall see.

And now we get down to it. Those numbers are entirely based on an ideal application, which is never the case in the real world. Since you're so adamant here, what factor of safety would you suggest for the design of the bolts used in this kit? 150%? 200%? More?

yea... 5/8's that's bigger... I like that... Ya know cause 3/4" is just excessive right?

Are you saying that 5/8" isn't significantly bigger?

The sheared 5/8" bolt on one of my 4-link uppers laughs at your single 10mm bolt up front.

Then again, I'm one of the minority on here that XJLI would agree actually pushes the limit of every bolt on their rig.

 

[scottmcneal]

So for 2 years you folks have been sitting here bitching about the size of your bolt?Get the hell outside and OFFROAD. If you don't own a offroad toy go buy one so you can have some fun .
I enjoy going out almost every weekend with family and friends. For the love of god make sure it has a dam short arm kit on it.
Now you all have a nice day, i got to change the oil on my jeep and the wifes jeep cause we are going out this weekend.YEA they both have short arms.LOL.
Good luck with fixing the world of long arms.

 

[XJLI]

Then again, I'm one of the minority on here that XJLI would agree actually pushes the limit of every bolt on their rig.

and have the videos to prove it.

So for 2 years you folks have been sitting here bitching about the size of your bolt?Get the hell outside and OFFROAD. If you don't own a offroad toy go buy one so you can have some fun .
I enjoy going out almost every weekend with family and friends. For the love of god make sure it has a dam short arm kit on it.
Now you all have a nice day, i got to change the oil on my jeep and the wifes jeep cause we are going out this weekend.YEA they both have short arms.LOL.
Good luck with fixing the world of long arms.

youre missing the point entirely... nothing wrong with long arms at all..

 

[ktm racer 419]

Ktm they don't make bolts that can handle you.

they do. iron rock just doesnt offer it lol