Illegal People In America

[RyanM]

LOL, i hear they are strenghteing borders up there in canada. guess they are gonna have to fly to mexico so they can walk into Texas.

 

[ECKSJAY]

We invade Mexico for the crusade on the "War on Drugs". Then silently take all their oil...

That is SO 80s. :jester:

 

[Starscream]

So by your definition...

We should all be speaking Navajo, Sioux, Crow, etc?

English is not the NATIVE language of this continent...

Illegal immigrants (did they have visas?) brought it over from Europe...

The entire south and southwest portion of this country were already speaking Spanish before English...

In all honesty...I don't think immigration determines what language is spoken...

The language spoken in any particular nation is usually determined by the amount of people residing in that nation that speak a given language/dialect.

Whether it is the "official language" or not is irrelevant...

Xenophopia cometh...

See History of Japan for reference

That's true, english was NOT the native language of this country 300+ years ago. I'm speaking of current times.

Economic trade determines language as well...

"Money talks"

That's why learning Japanese is good for our businessmen and viceversa...

English, Spanish, Japanese, etc...

As the world gets smaller and more populated...

Languages will evolve to incorporate many different influences...

The language debate will be mute in a few decades...

:gag:

That just goes to further my thoughts- most illegal immigrants and many immigrants in general migrated here to make money through business. The language of business here, for the majority, is english.

have you been anywhere outside the united states? almost everywhere speaks english. It is my belief that many people want immigrants to speak english because they are too lazy to learn spanish...

No, I have never been outside of the country, but I am aware of the fact that many other countries are taught english as a second language for business purposes. I'm not saying anyone should be made to speak only english. I'm saying that if they are migrating here and want to deal with a country who's determined language is english, then it's probably a good idea if they learn it. I also agree that most people who say "They need to learn our language!" are just not willing to learn another language themselves, but in this case it is the immigrants who should be doing the learning.

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

That just goes to further my thoughts- most illegal immigrants and many immigrants in general migrated here to make money through business. The language of business here, for the majority, is english.

But here's the true capitalist angle...

If I own a business in a predominantly immigrant area...

Whether it be latino, asian, eastern european, etc.

Wouldn't it make good business sense to cater to these groups in order to make more money?

There's a reason many businesses offer bilingual menus, invoices, contracts, etc.

Money.

You can't blame foreign language speakers for the increased visibility of their language when there's businesses competing for their spending power...

Business is partly to blame for many people not having to learn english...

"Why should I have to learn english when I can obtain the tools and goods for my daily existence thru stores and service providers that speak spanish?"

Follow?

Being able to make a buck is part of the "American Way"...

Whether it be made in a spanish, chinese, polish or english speaking business makes no difference at all...

It'll probably wind up being safeguarded and manipulated by someone who speaks yiddish anyway.

 

[Starscream]

Follow?

Yeah, I see what you mean.

It'll probably wind up being safeguarded and manipulated by someone who speaks yiddish anyway.

:gag:

 

[RichP]

So by your definition...

We should all be speaking Navajo, Sioux, Crow, etc?

English is not the NATIVE language of this continent...

Illegal immigrants (did they have visas?) brought it over from Europe...

The entire south and southwest portion of this country were already speaking Spanish before English...

In all honesty...I don't think immigration determines what language is spoken...

The language spoken in any particular nation is usually determined by the amount of people residing in that nation that speak a given language/dialect.

Whether it is the "official language" or not is irrelevant...

Xenophopia cometh...

See History of Japan for reference

English is the dominant language in this country, english is the dominant language in the computer industry and english is the dominant language in the air traffic control system, english is the dominant language in the maritime industry. The countries and provinces that fight against english, quebec as an example in north america are generally agitators.
My family from 3-5 generations ago were mainly polish, russian, german, irish, the whole heinz 57 thing. No one in our extended household, grandparents, great grand parents, great uncles, etc would speak polish, german, russian or irish around the kids. They came to america by choice, learned english by choice and read, speak and write by choice because they were americans.
Take the russian army, their issues with training inductees was a real piece of work, 25+ different languages, imagine getting a platoon or compay to follow a simple order, amazing.
We need a clean sweep, massive one, the alternative is making Mexico #51 at which point ocean front property would be within my reach $$ wise...

 

[RichP]

I know for a fact due to personal experiance they will not teach or re format a class in Mexico or Japan or even Europe to accomidate an english speeking student when it isnt the primary national language, either learn the language QUICKLY or fail!! so why do we format for the ILLEGAL students and require our teachers to speek several languages. here in So. Cal it is Tagalig, Spanish and Caldian ( Airibic ) plus have a limited working grasp on english. one of my kids almost failed a class tought by a Mexican lady (here on a, seven year expired, two year work permit ) that could not speek english well enough for my 18yo daughter ( honors student ) to understand, i work with mostly spanish speeking individuals and i had some trouble understanding her, we got the district and our attourney involved and they got a translator and she passed it with an A! thats just hosed up.

Same in the colleges here too, ESU has a mid easterner teaching algebra, speaks VERY broken english, daughter had a very tough time keeping her 3.9 and deans list just because of that one class. She saw that she was going to have to have him again 3x's and transferred to another college... The interesting thing was I had seen him several times around the area at various business's over the last couple of years that I take care of computer wise. He spoke with barely an accent when it came time to settle a repair bill and dollars were involved, guess there is another language here called 'convienent english'....

 

[FarmerMatt]

Gil hit it on the head. Why do you think that most other country's require english classes from 1st grade on? It for the same reasons Gil pointed out that businesses, here, cater to different languages. Other country's want to cater to & do business with us. I have to be able to speak spanish (well, at least the Mexican form of spanish) because this is the prdominant language of my work force. Would I prefer them to speak english, sure, but the reality is reality & if I want to succeed than I've got to be able to communicate. At times I feel we (Americans) are extremely arrogant. We expect the world to adapt & cater to us. Those who truley want to succeed will adapt themselves rather than have others adapt to you. This, as a by product, will also gain you perspective from the other side of the fence.

Matt

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

My family from 3-5 generations ago were mainly polish, russian, german, irish, the whole heinz 57 thing. No one in our extended household, grandparents, great grand parents, great uncles, etc would speak polish, german, russian or irish around the kids. They came to america by choice, learned english by choice and read, speak and write by choice because they were americans.

So your family didn't take the time or effort to teach multiple languages?

That's too bad...

You think it's not a benefit to be versed in multiple languages?

I agree that English is the primary language in this country at this moment...

and that everyone should learn it...

But there is no downside to being bilingual or trilingual...

Knowledge is power...

Being able to communicate with different groups of people is power...

Understanding someone speaking about you in another language thinking you have no idea what's being said and you speaking back in their language...

Classic.

 

[JohnX]

I agree that English is the primary language in this country at this moment...

and that everyone should learn it...

I agree. This is one problem I have with immigrants (from Mexico and elsewhere), some of them will not learn the language after being here (and being a citizen) for over 10 years. What gives?

Now for my main point....

I read in the paper this morning about the amount of Mexican immigrants that are living and working in So. Cal. and send the majority of the money earned back "home" to their families. THIS is one of the biggest problems with immigrants from Mexico. They take away from the economy by sending untaxed money out of our system.

I think anyone should be allowed to come here, work here, live here, etc.
IF... they spend their hard earned money in our economy and become taxpaying citizens.

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

I agree. This is one problem I have with immigrants (from Mexico and elsewhere), some of them will not learn the language after being here (and being a citizen) for over 10 years. What gives?

Now for my main point....

I read in the paper this morning about the amount of Mexican immigrants that are living and working in So. Cal. and send the majority of the money earned back "home" to their families. THIS is one of the biggest problems with immigrants from Mexico. They take away from the economy by sending untaxed money out of our system.

I think anyone should be allowed to come here, work here, live here, etc.
IF... they spend their hard earned money in our economy and become taxpaying citizens.

True...

But to play devil's advocate...

Out govt gives billions of dollars in "financial aid" and "loans" to countries that will never be able to pay back even the interest on that money...

Our govt gives billions of dollars in tax cuts to corporations and individuals that don't deserve it...

I'm not saying it's right...

but they did work for that money and anyone should be able to do whatever damn well they please with their hard earned money...

now...

scamming public aid and welfare...

That's the real issue... and it's not just the minorities doing it.

The real issues should be our govt taking care of it's hard working taxpaying citizens/residents before trying to provide relief elsewhere...

Minorities are an easy scapegoat and diversion to detract attention from the real causes of pocket emptying in our country.

Fiscally irresponsible spending and pork projects to friends of politicians (in both parties)

It's a diversion...

let's prevent Jose from sending his 20K a year to Mexico but let's give Colombia a couple of million dollars to "fight" drug trafficking...

ignore the man behind the curtain...

 

[JohnX]

True...

But to play devil's advocate...

Out govt gives billions of dollars in "financial aid" and "loans" to countries that will never be able to pay back even the interest on that money...

Our govt gives billions of dollars in tax cuts to corporations and individuals that don't deserve it...

I'm not saying it's right...

but they did work for that money and anyone should be able to do whatever damn well they please with their hard earned money...

now...

scamming public aid and welfare...

That's the real issue... and it's not just the minorities doing it.

The real issues should be our govt taking care of it's hard working taxpaying citizens/residents before trying to provide relief elsewhere...

Minorities are an easy scapegoat and diversion to detract attention from the real causes of pocket emptying in our country.

Fiscally irresponsible spending and pork projects to friends of politicians (in both parties)

It's a diversion...

let's prevent Jose from sending his 20K a year to Mexico but let's give Colombia a couple of million dollars to "fight" drug trafficking...

ignore the man behind the curtain...

I hear and I agree. My point wasn't really that we should limit what he does with his money....more so that HE should want to be here and be a citizen...Or else he should leave.
If he doesn't want to be an American...he should not be here to take our money.

I know it is change compared to the billions we give away, but 20K times a million guys....lots o' money.

 

[RichP]

So your family didn't take the time or effort to teach multiple languages?

That's too bad...

You think it's not a benefit to be versed in multiple languages?

I agree that English is the primary language in this country at this moment...

and that everyone should learn it...

But there is no downside to being bilingual or trilingual...

Knowledge is power...

Being able to communicate with different groups of people is power...

Understanding someone speaking about you in another language thinking you have no idea what's being said and you speaking back in their language...

Classic.

When my people left their old contries they LEFT, they did not bring it with them and expect the people here to adjust to THEM. THEY were the visitors, the immigrants, the future americans, they wanted to come here and be americans not be poles, russians, germans, irish living in america. When they LEFT those countries, they LEFT THEM.


Understanding someone speaking about you in another language thinking you have no idea what's being said and you NOT speaking back in their language...

Smart....

 

[8Mud]

I love my country as every generation before me has. My forefathers came here to seek a better life and became a part of what we know as the United States. They didnt come here seeking amnesty by sneeking across borders and stealing jobs ,making high wages tax free ,not fighting for the freedom they sought from the corrupt govmnt. they left. My forfathers came here from Europe to settle a new land and live a life of fredom a prosperity. No where Have I read about any of them sneaking across the border illegally then demanding amnesty and disrupting the economy causing harm to the country that they so which wished to escape to. IF the MEXICAN people want to show their strength in numbers and brag about their power then they should go back to Mexico and get rid of the corrupt govmnt. there and take back their country instead of trying to take over ours. They Have a great country there that could flourish greatly but thay are too lazy to take control and organize protest in their own country. They will be shot there..so they comre here to disrupt our country and seek equal rights because they know the american public is weak to whine baggers..... Bravo to anyone comming here and becomming an american citizen..learning english ...and becomming a productive part of society...Freeloaders!! can get the hell out!

I didn't read all the posts, but would like to bring up a couple of things. It has been said, way back when, they voted on the national language for America and decided by a very narrow margin that it would be English instead of German. Another generation or two and they may vote to make it Spanish, if you guys don't get busy and reproduce :kissyou:
Secondly, the Germans that left Germany (in the 1800's) to move to America, rarley asked permission and were illegal alians leaving Germany, they were in effect Serfs back then. The Irish often left all of there debts when they moved to America and were likely criminals in somebodies eyes when they left.
This whole legal and illegal thing, in my eyes, gets way to much press. Whomever is in charge makes the rules, legal and illegal, begins and stops, for me, at the Ten Commandments (which nobody pays much attention to anymore), all the rest is just rules made by somebody (mostly) to benenfit somebody other than me. While laws may be necessary and enforcement an obligation, they really don't mean much, if nobody pays any attention to them. And just passing more laws is rarley a solution.
The people that grew the whole situation, were the employeers, not the employees.
Squeezing a few billion (even trillion) more tax dollars out of the illegal alians, would likely buy only a few more B-1 bombers and wouldn't solve anybodies problems.
A wave of immigrants, moved the Indians out and took over not all that long ago. Now it is happening to them and they aren't happy campers.
And lastly, people have a tendancy to blame all there troubles on minorities. Always have always will. Illegal alians of all flavors are likely less than 5% of the population, but seem to be getting a very large percentage of the attention lately.
It has been mentioned before, that this whole subject may be largely irrelavent in the grand scheme of things and is just a topic to focus the masses attention on. Give them something to keep them occupied.
The health care system in the US sucks. The home of the radical fundamentalist Islamic movement is working really hard to acquire atomic weapons. There has been an alarming abscense of information about bird flu recently. The weather has been getting a little radical the last few years.
Sorry but wetbacks and other illegal immigrants are pretty darned low on my list of worries this week.
And just to get the whole thing into perspective, my little village just had it's 750th birthday. America is still going through growing pains and trying to stunt the growth and stop the changes is likely going to cause more problems than it solves. You may be able to slow the whole process, for a short while.
Solutions are not gonna be quick or easy and are likely going to take decades if ever to implement. And every administration, is going to modify the plan and spend the funds on something else, before it ever has a chance to succeed.

 

[Mr.OverKill]

I didn't read all the posts, but would like to bring up a couple of things. It has been said, way back when, they voted on the national language for America and decided by a very narrow margin that it would be English instead of German. Another generation or two and they may vote to make it Spanish, if you guys don't get busy and reproduce :kissyou:
Secondly, the Germans that left Germany (in the 1800's) to move to America, rarley asked permission and were illegal alians leaving Germany, they were in effect Serfs back then. The Irish often left all of there debts when they moved to America and were likely criminals in somebodies eyes when they left.
This whole legal and illegal thing, in my eyes, gets way to much press. Whomever is in charge makes the rules, legal and illegal, begins and stops, for me, at the Ten Commandments (which nobody pays much attention to anymore), all the rest is just rules made by somebody (mostly) to benenfit somebody other than me. While laws may be necessary and enforcement an obligation, they really don't mean much, if nobody pays any attention to them. And just passing more laws is rarley a solution.
The people that grew the whole situation, were the employeers, not the employees.
Squeezing a few billion (even trillion) more tax dollars out of the illegal alians, would likely buy only a few more B-1 bombers and wouldn't solve anybodies problems.
A wave of immigrants, moved the Indians out and took over not all that long ago. Now it is happening to them and they aren't happy campers.
And lastly, people have a tendancy to blame all there troubles on minorities. Always have always will. Illegal alians of all flavors are likely less than 5% of the population, but seem to be getting a very large percentage of the attention lately.
It has been mentioned before, that this whole subject may be largely irrelavent in the grand scheme of things and is just a topic to focus the masses attention on. Give them something to keep them occupied.
The health care system in the US sucks. The home of the radical fundamentalist Islamic movement is working really hard to acquire atomic weapons. There has been an alarming abscense of information about bird flu recently. The weather has been getting a little radical the last few years.
Sorry but wetbacks and other illegal immigrants are pretty darned low on my list of worries this week.
And just to get the whole thing into perspective, my little village just had it's 750th birthday. America is still going through growing pains and trying to stunt the growth and stop the changes is likely going to cause more problems than it solves. You may be able to slow the whole process, for a short while.
Solutions are not gonna be quick or easy and are likely going to take decades if ever to implement. And every administration, is going to modify the plan and spend the funds on something else, before it ever has a chance to succeed.

well said but it still is B.S. that i have to pay $40 k a year for college and some illegal imagrant gets the same friggen education or better ( because the professor speaks their language better than they speek english ) for free, and i have to spend thousands on medical insurance for my familly and some illegal bastard gets it free because i pay for it in taxes, and thats just the tip of the iceburg!! come to the United States and BECOME A CITIZEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND PAY FOR YOUR OWN FRIGGEN STUFF. I AM TIRED OF THE IN EQUALITY AND REVERSE RACEISM, I AM BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AT WORK BY A FRIGGEN ILLEGAL AILIEN SUPERVISOR!! I DONT LIVE IN TJ LIKE THE REST OF HIS "SPECIAL CREW" AND HE HETES IT. even though i am the most highly qualified welder/ fitter with the most certifications i keep being given shit jobs that a helper/ fire watch should be assigned to and that is an un trained one at that while the TJ crew is given the hi profile and most technical jobs and i am asked to fix their screwups the next day and being harrassed for the rework even though it is the illegal workers doing the screw ups. well that is a proablem that the INS is going to deal with, i have approached my boss/ the owner of the company with the proablem, we shal see.

 

[8Mud]

well said but it still is B.S. that i have to pay $40 k a year for college and some illegal imagrant gets the same friggen education or better ( because the professor speaks their language better than they speek english ) for free, and i have to spend thousands on medical insurance for my familly and some illegal bastard gets it free because i pay for it in taxes, and thats just the tip of the iceburg!! come to the United States and BECOME A CITIZEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND PAY FOR YOUR OWN FRIGGEN STUFF. I AM TIRED OF THE IN EQUALITY AND REVERSE RACEISM, I AM BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AT WORK BY A FRIGGEN ILLEGAL AILIEN SUPERVISOR!! I DONT LIVE IN TJ LIKE THE REST OF HIS "SPECIAL CREW" AND HE HETES IT. even though i am the most highly qualified welder/ fitter with the most certifications i keep being given shit jobs that a helper/ fire watch should be assigned to and that is an un trained one at that while the TJ crew is given the hi profile and most technical jobs and i am asked to fix their screwups the next day and being harrassed for the rework even though it is the illegal workers doing the screw ups. well that is a proablem that the INS is going to deal with, i have approached my boss/ the owner of the company with the proablem, we shal see.

I joined the Army reserves (after Nam) as crash crew for a helicopter unit, worked County Fire depatment reserve, went to school and took the proper courses for two years. Trained for six months to score high on the pyshical tests and then took the fire department entrance exams. I scored high enough to be assured a job within a year due to retirements and was then informed that they were hiring only minorities for the next five years.
They had to go to page three to find the highest minority applicant to hire and started from there. We filed suit, a reverse discrimination thing and were informed that we had won, but were then informed that the last test results were now invalid and we could retest again in two years. Life is a beatch then you die.
Funny I ended up as a foreman with 19 out of 23 of my employees being black. Good thing (for them) I didn't carry a grudge. But to tell you the truth, I had kind of an unsympathetic ear, when one of my employees would complain about prejudice or discrimination. I'd tell them to suck it up and do the best they could with what they had.
All this press and hate is bound to have some sort of backlash. I just hope it doesn't last too long and people have a chance to cool down and forget. If it goes on too long or gets too heated, it will probably cause problems that last a generation or more. America has enough enemies now, they don't really need to encite more enemity.
Just a little advice from an oldtimer. I try not to be the best or the worst. If your the best, the Boss has a tendancy to use you up and the other employees usually hate you for setting the bar too high. I do my share and a little more, first one to work and usually the last to leave, don't complain much and stay as far away from management as possible. Works for me.
The next thing is, education isn't really supposed to be for the number of certificates, it is supposed to be for the education. And is actually usually a decade behind the real world anyway. I learn, to be learning and to feed my mind, not to punch any tickets. I'll tackle any job that I think I have chance of completing successfully, no matter what schooling I've had. I know at least half a dozen trades as well if not better, than the guys with the credentials. Learning is my way of fighting boredom and making a contribution, not a contest.

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

well said but it still is B.S. that i have to pay $40 k a year for college and some illegal imagrant gets the same friggen education or better ( because the professor speaks their language better than they speek english ) for free, and i have to spend thousands on medical insurance for my familly and some illegal bastard gets it free because i pay for it in taxes, and thats just the tip of the iceburg!! come to the United States and BECOME A CITIZEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND PAY FOR YOUR OWN FRIGGEN STUFF. I AM TIRED OF THE IN EQUALITY AND REVERSE RACEISM, I AM BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST AT WORK BY A FRIGGEN ILLEGAL AILIEN SUPERVISOR!! I DONT LIVE IN TJ LIKE THE REST OF HIS "SPECIAL CREW" AND HE HETES IT. even though i am the most highly qualified welder/ fitter with the most certifications i keep being given shit jobs that a helper/ fire watch should be assigned to and that is an un trained one at that while the TJ crew is given the hi profile and most technical jobs and i am asked to fix their screwups the next day and being harrassed for the rework even though it is the illegal workers doing the screw ups. well that is a proablem that the INS is going to deal with, i have approached my boss/ the owner of the company with the proablem, we shal see.

Well...

Since illegal aliens aren't allowed to vote...

It would seem the appropriate way to deal with this would be to change your local or state laws...

By voting.

majority rules...

If enough people feel the same way you do... it can be done.

I lived in CA for 3 years as a teenager...

I have experience with CA employment issues...

I moved back to the Midwest

Best thing I ever did

 

[Mr.OverKill]

I moved back to the Midwest

Best thing I ever did

wife doesnt want to, she has finaly established "roots"

 

[JarheadJon]

The root issue; globalisim or nationalisim. I am an Americam who has been to 32 countries, so I appreciate this nation for all its glory. Language.... Read the Constitution, Bill Of Rights, The Pledge, and until recently our National Anthem; they are all written, read and spoken in English. Sure 600 years ago it may have been Spanish and Native dialects, but 40,000 years ago it was cavemanibberish. Point being, today this is the United States where we apply the American Rule of Law.

Back to the root issue. Our choice is globalize or nationalize. Unfortunately we are already pretty deep in to the global thing. Very few goods are produced in the good ol' USA anymore. We sold out to cheap overseas labor, and as a result alot of times get cheap imported goods. Now our services are getting rendered by cheap imported labor. Our children (I have a 10 year old boy) will bear the burden of our selling out for the sake of pennies. What trades will there be if there all being done by an imported underclass? What factories will produce our war goods in the future when China decides it is time to go Imperial?

Look in the clasifieds. In Eglish you will see AMERICA FOR SELL: CHEAP!!!

As you can see I favor Nationalism. Lets preserve the American Way, leave the socialist thing to the Europeans. My Avatar is a picture of my XJ's rear window. It states "SECURE OUR BORDERS ENFORCE OUR LAWS". I live in San Diego County and I get responses every day, all day. And I am here to tell you by a wide margin most are very favorable. Of course I get a lot of Latino HS kids reving there ricer next to me or giving me the bird. But all in all it has been great to see the favorable response to my message.

Well thats my rant. I have alot more to say but will close with this. You have to pardon my Nationalist view; I know I bleed Patriot Red because I saw in on the battlefield. And yes, that probably has fueled my desire to secure our border and enforce our laws. Note I did not say Close the border.

Americans, Its time to take ownership in our American problem. Illeagal Immigration.

 

[JarheadJon]

. And just to get the whole thing into perspective, my little village just had it's 750th birthday. America is still going through growing pains and trying to stunt the growth and stop the changes is likely going to cause more problems than it solves.


And one other thing. Your 750 year old village.... Remember "oldtimer", the United States has the Oldest Constitution still in force in the world.