• Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

Honor and Integrity

Fergie

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
I have found, recently, that folks seem to be about winning, and getting ahead in life. Now, I have no problem with winning and getting ahead, but not at the cost of my honor and integrity.

I would rather lse, and know that I havent cheated, than to cheat and win anything.

I have taken lower grades in classes, even when I had the chance to lie and get a better one.

Maybe it was the Army, and my upbringing, but Honor and Integrity just mean too much to me.

Fergie
 
While a code of honour is formed by upbringing and modified by experience, without honour, a man is nothing.

The "code of honour" is an extension of the social contract - the social contract governs how we interact with other people (when there are no outside influences,) while your honour will largely determine whether they deal with you again later - and favourably.

While my personal "code" has seemed odd to some, my experiences are also odd. However, it can't be too odd - I've got repeat business, and I hope to have even more when I come out that way and open Works in Progress...

"Character is what you are in the dark!" (Lord John Whorfin in Buckaroo Banzai.)

I've seen a lot of "honour lapses" out here - and everywhere else - but I'm hoping that it's a temporary aberration. My wife is working on an interesting idea about the whole "sense of entitlement" that seems to be running rampant - I'll have to see that she sees this. I think it ties in, somehow...

5-90
 
I tried to build a race car without cheating one time...couldnt finish higher than 6-8th...now I dont race.
 
Welcome to the jungle...

A faster way to kill thieves hasn't been invented yet...

Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness Anyone?

Thieves potentially violate all three of those.

Kill them! Fast or slow irregardless. Dont tally many witnesses and make sure those that are still around have the story right.
 
Fergie said:
I would rather lose, and know that I havent cheated, than to cheat and win anything.

I have taken lower grades in classes, even when I had the chance to lie and get a better one.

Maybe it was my upbringing, but Honor and Integrity just mean too much to me.

Fergie

There are still a few of us that don't buy into that situational ethics crap.:lecture:

I like sleeping at night.

TIM
 
5-90 said:
While a code of honour is formed by upbringing and modified by experience, without honour, a man is nothing.

The "code of honour" is an extension of the social contract - the social contract governs how we interact with other people (when there are no outside influences,) while your honour will largely determine whether they deal with you again later - and favourably.

While my personal "code" has seemed odd to some, my experiences are also odd. However, it can't be too odd - I've got repeat business, and I hope to have even more when I come out that way and open Works in Progress...

"Character is what you are in the dark!" (Lord John Whorfin in Buckaroo Banzai.)

I've seen a lot of "honour lapses" out here - and everywhere else - but I'm hoping that it's a temporary aberration. My wife is working on an interesting idea about the whole "sense of entitlement" that seems to be running rampant - I'll have to see that she sees this. I think it ties in, somehow...

5-90

Jon,
somehow I can't see this going over very well in a college enviroment.:lecture:

Keep at it!

btw, If we're going to get going on the "sense of entitlement",:rattle: might as well start that one in the den.

TIM
 
I've long envisioned my presence in California (staying until the medication doesn't work anymore...) as a sort of "acid test" for people's brains.

Force them into critical thought - see if the brain works.
Force them into analytical thought - see if they can reach a conclusion that BELONGS TO THEM - not to parents/politicians/church/whatever. Right or wrong - make them come up with their own answer.
Force them into predictive thought - if I do "this," what happens? Does it just happen to me, or will it involve someone else - and how much?
Try a little quick thinking - "Come up with an answer, and you have five seconds. YOU! (pointing) - what have you got to say on the subject?"

Make them defend their answers - right or wrong. Analyze your opinion, support it.

Push them into decisions that involve character and consequences. Don't hand them anything - make them WORK for it. Keep at it - until they quit or I'm happy.

Every now and then I connect, and it makes all the frustration worthwhile. Probably 97/100 people out here make me want to say "If only you had a living brain..."

That doesn't count while I'm on the freeway. I think there are about a dozen drivers out here I can trust - and I trained most of them (and NONE of them are cops - I'm really not impressed by them lately...)

The most difficult part is usually getting people to understand that their actions effect more than just the "man in the mirror" - and thinking a little farther ahead than the ends of their noses. Gimme a pain in the bridge of my nose...

5-90
 
Just an example:

This alst year, one of my classes was very difficult, and I had a time conflict with it because of other activities. I missed an in class quiz, and the prof decided that he could trust me to take it home, and to not use my notes, knowing full well that I could without him knowing.

Well, I didnt get to it in the time he gave me, and turned it blank. He asked why it wasnt filled out, and I told him that I didnt get to it in time, and wasnt going to violoate his trust just for a grade. He looked at me very oddly, and said he didnt think he ever had a student that did that before.

I received a C in the class instead of a B, but I know that I have honor and integrity, and am proud of the C.
 
Fergie said:
I have found, recently, that folks seem to be about winning, and getting ahead in life. Now, I have no problem with winning and getting ahead, but not at the cost of my honor and integrity.

I would rather lse, and know that I havent cheated, than to cheat and win anything.

I have taken lower grades in classes, even when I had the chance to lie and get a better one.

Maybe it was the Army, and my upbringing, but Honor and Integrity just mean too much to me.

Fergie

Damn i wish the people I work with even just remotely thought like you....if they did then maybe i wouldn't wanna quit so much....i,ve been at this job for almost two months and i have already been in two meetings with upper level management..because of this "he said, she said" bull shit rumor mill that runs rampant around here..seems everyone else just wants to know who is doing what and why and how..so they can counter it and get ahead...just do your damn job to the best of yer ability and it'll all work out...frickin 4 star hotel...wish i was back in the bar scene at least everyone there was friends or to drunk to care....ok i am done thaks for the soap box rant oppurtunity..
Maier
 
The use of the word "Honor" and "Integrity" to describe myself is something I cannot do. The fact is, being truthful and ethical are attributes that a person constantly has to strive to attain and hold on to. There have been very few ever born who can attest to have been 100% truthful and ethical about everything they have done. I'll be honest and say that I have not always conducted myself with honor and integrity, but I try.

In raising my kids to be truthful, I've explain to them that a persons word is more valuable than any amount of money. One could be the richest person in the world, but if he is considered a liar and thief and not trustworthy, he is not respected and really has nothing. The hardest part was to explain to them that telling Grandma she looks pretty, when she actually didn't, was not considered telling a lie ... rather, is was being polite.

How much of all this has sunk in, I have no idea. But, my kids have never felt the need to lie to me as far as I know. At least I know better than ask questions about subject I'd rather not know about! :laugh3:

Les
 
LBEXJ said:
The use of the word "Honor" and "Integrity" to describe myself is something I cannot do. The fact is, being truthful and ethical are attributes that a person constantly has to strive to attain and hold on to. There have been very few ever born who can attest to have been 100% truthful and ethical about everything they have done. I'll be honest and say that I have not always conducted myself with honor and integrity, but I try.
Les

Hmmm....Those 2 words are the ones I would have chosen to describe you. No one is perfect, all of us have at one time or another have strayed off the path.

Rev
 
Fergie said:
I have found, recently, that folks seem to be about winning, and getting ahead in life. Now, I have no problem with winning and getting ahead, but not at the cost of my honor and integrity.

I would rather lse, and know that I havent cheated, than to cheat and win anything.

I have taken lower grades in classes, even when I had the chance to lie and get a better one.

Maybe it was the Army, and my upbringing, but Honor and Integrity just mean too much to me.

Fergie

Very commendable!! My hat goes off to you sir!

I tend to believe (influenced by my life's experience) that the positive attributes of your honor and integrity were influenced more by your upbringing than by the Army.

It's too bad that your actions and sentiments are so uncommon. Unfortunately, for some, getting ahead and winning is never enough. It evolves to a "game" about power and control, in order to further personal "status" and gain.

Money, power, control, and status are tangible items, which is why so many put a higher value on them than the intangible honor and integrity. Unlike honor and integrity, tangible items can easily be lost or stolen.

Honor and integrity are the only attributes in life that we have absolute control over. Life tends to "test" these attributes. Protect and defend them whenever you can. You may be poorer for it, but you will sleep better knowing you did the "right" thing.
 
Without any dicernable plan, my folks taught all of their kids to value integrity of self above all else and to respect integrity in others. Honor was something like Respect: to be earned.

I remember, when I was checking out at a grocery store - I was about 20yo or so - they had those change dispensers. I gave the checker some cash and moved over to the dispenser to wait for my change. There was a dime and a penny already laying in the little cup. I lifted them out and set them on the counter. When my change came down I grabbed that and was turning to leave when the checker pointed out the dime and penny. I told her that was from the last customer: it's not mine. She expressed doubt that the customer would be back looking for it. I said, "I'm worth more than 11 cents." She didn't seem to understand, so I said, "If it's not mine, I don't need it." She just shrugged and left it lay. So did I.

I don't say that proves I'm righteous or whatnot. I'm just saying that whole exchange occurred without forethought because that is how my folks trained me. I've been taking our oldest to school every morning for four years now. Outside the front of the school are signs that tell parents not to drop off children before 7:30am. So, if we get there early, I park and wait. Meanwhile, a continuous stream of cars is rolling through dropping off kids from as early as 7:15 or 7:10. It took a while that first year for my boy to come out and ask me why we waited and the others did not. I told him we wait because that is the rule. That is the right thing to do. I told him you have a mind: you are smart: you know what is right to do. No matter what anybody else is doing, you always do what you know is right.

I got to wonder, what do those other parents think their children are learning, watching their own parents violate a clearly marked directive, day after day, year after year?
 
Fergie said:
I have found, recently, that folks seem to be about winning, and getting ahead in life. Now, I have no problem with winning and getting ahead, but not at the cost of my honor and integrity.

I would rather lse, and know that I havent cheated, than to cheat and win anything.

I have taken lower grades in classes, even when I had the chance to lie and get a better one.

Maybe it was the Army, and my upbringing, but Honor and Integrity just mean too much to me.

Fergie

Not making declarations, it isn´t set in concrete. But if you want to succeed and ever make it to a place where you might influence the whole proccess. You almost have to play the game by the games rules and maybe set aside, your core on occasion. Flexibilty is also an asset, the rules may be set a bit narrow, to control the cheaters.
People sometimes loose sight of the mission, while concentrating on the form. The mission is to get an education, your ethics are likely set already. And actually, there will be more with age, just as important as Honor and Integrity, like unselfish sacrifice. For every person out there who actually does anything, 9 exist on BS. And the best BS´ers are often at the top.
Getting old and never have really filled my potential. Some of my most basic values are mission, necessity and team work/community (though I seem to be a rather independant thinker or just wierd). While the other people are busy selling themselves, I was busy doing something, that needed to be done. Self motivator.
Honor and integrity, is there for a doer, "if at all possible do the right thing" but secondary to mission. Actually, Honor and Integrity may be more important values in an environment, that thrives on deceate. In my arena, it either works or it doesn´t, no matter who says what.
I´m gonna have the water on in the building, before everybody gets to work. Because it´s necessary, not because it´s ethical.
Just saying, the ideal is to live by your ethics, not forgetting priorities and accomplishing the mission, hopefully for the greater good. Just a tip, don´t get so rapped up in the game, you loose sight of the mission.
Self entitlement is the tit syndrome, carried to the extreme. When I cry you better stick something in there or I´ll cry some more. If I have to bite my twin to get some more, so be it. I want, what I want. Self sacrifice, for the greater good, is so foriegn to these people, it doesn´t exist in there world. Sometimes the same for the status motivated or the greedy.
But whatever you do don´t listen to me, you may become essential, but you´ll probably never be successfull.
 
Last edited:
Fergie said:
I have found, recently, that folks seem to be about winning, and getting ahead in life. Now, I have no problem with winning and getting ahead, but not at the cost of my honor and integrity.

I would rather lse, and know that I havent cheated, than to cheat and win anything.

I have taken lower grades in classes, even when I had the chance to lie and get a better one.

Maybe it was the Army, and my upbringing, but Honor and Integrity just mean too much to me.

Fergie
Man, you're wierd.

You can't be as old as I am but that's a philosophy that I think will die out completely when my generation goes.
 
Fergie said:
I have found, recently, that folks seem to be about winning, and getting ahead in life. Now, I have no problem with winning and getting ahead, but not at the cost of my honor and integrity.

I would rather lse, and know that I havent cheated, than to cheat and win anything.

I have taken lower grades in classes, even when I had the chance to lie and get a better one.

Maybe it was the Army, and my upbringing, but Honor and Integrity just mean too much to me.

Fergie

I feel the same way, and act the same way. Only difference is that I was not in the Military, just raised right and have been around a lot of crap! Tends to open your eyes up to all the $hit that's going on now days!
 
Had one 04 that was a total scumbag, would always take advantage of his rank to jump in line at the PX, chow, food line, whatever, called him on it one day and his response was 'I'm an officer and a gentleman' to which I added 'by act of congress maybe but in my case it's strictly thru breeding and upbringing', amazingly he had no clue what I meant, gotta wonder how people like that get put in positions of power...
 
Eagle, it aint never gonna die out.

RichP- I know what you mean there too. Even at work, some of the office guys treat the laborers like crap, and think only of what they need.

You gotta put your people first, and then take care of yourself.

Fergie
 
Back
Top