Cheap (relatively) axles thought?

David Taylor said:
Cool, LP and stock shafts. Sounds like a huge upgrade. Stock zuzu rear 44
with stock shafts. Is this any better than a stock xj 44?
Where talking about building strong axles here not using junk yard left overs.
Click to expand...

seems to me anything other than a Dana 30/35 combo would be a huge upgrade...

:D
 
Gil BullyKatz said:
seems to me anything other than a Dana 30/35 combo would be a huge upgrade...

:D
Click to expand...

I'd consider a front 44 with stock shafts a downgrade.
And for about $1000 you could put alloy inners, outers & CTM's in a 30 & have a much more reliable & much better front axle than a 44 with stock shafts, at least it would be better on the trail, maybe not on the web though.
hasta

Paul
 
Paul S said:
I'd consider a front 44 with stock shafts a downgrade.
And for about $1000 you could put alloy inners, outers & CTM's in a 30 & have a much more reliable & much better front axle than a 44 with stock shafts, at least it would be better on the trail, maybe not on the web though.
hasta

Paul
Click to expand...


Did you not read the title of the thread where it says CHEAP?

All money being equal...

would you rather sink $1000 into a Dana 30 than $1000 into a RC HP44?

Seems to me you could get more strength with less expense by starting stronger than stock...

:rolleyes:
 
I don't know if I want to jump into this, you guys are mean and might make me cry.

Jeff, don't andy around with the 33 spline. You can do a 35 spline ARB and then run normal 60 shafts all the way out. Import shafts are about $550 and domestics in the $800 (?). If your not going to 4340's you might as well stick with the 44 and do Warn's or Superior shafts with CTM's. Strength wise they are in the same ballpark as a spicer 60 shaft. Though you could use the spicer stuff until it breaks then upgrade.

Width is a problem I haven't completely solved with king pin knuckles though. You can take a good inch off the inside of the 60 C where you would normally weld. I haven't gotten far enough into it to decide if that would help or not. At the very least the spring (not counting coilovers) would have to be partially mounted on the inner C to keep the width close to 63".

I'm really looking hard at the Ford superduty setup because of this. With the shorter stub lenth even if the axle ends up at 63" I can still run a little more positive offset wheel without having to worry about using the hubs as curb feelers. Cheap starts dropping from there. Hub needs to be bored, drilled to a normal bolt pattern, and high steer isn't as easy as a kingpin. Used axles aren't cheap either although any D50 would work for the knuckles. Also 16" wheels are required unless you use F-450 knuckles and adapt Willwood calipers to it.

Also from the measurements I've taken it pretty well requires the use of a retubed 78-79 Ford axle with the 3 1/8" tubes. The 2 3/4 tubes are only 1.75" ID (on the real ones) and that only leaves 1/8" around the outside. Doesn't leave much room to play with the seal by the diff. Also with the 2 3/4" tubes you have to sleeve the knuckle to reduce the size.

For the rear axle, even if you sleeve the tube you better have an alignment rod. You would be surprised on how far off they can be just because of tolorances in the tube. The oiling issues will depend on how many road miles drive it. I've seen some guys around here with retubed Ford fronts that have lasted 10 years and others that go through pinion bearings once a year (daily drivers).

After prying info out of Paul with a toothpick (it's like using a bat on an ant) I think the Ford housing with a Tru Hi9 third would be easier to deal with. The pumpkin can be pushed more towards the center so the knuckle is the only thing that has to be dealt with on the springs.

Bottom line I see $3000 on the extreme cheap side. Your looking at $1600-$1800 just in the axles and diff with the 44 center. I'll let you do the math on the Hi9. Mines going to get parts bought for the next year or so before I begin.

And Andy, take that back. I'm a little over two weeks on the hub change. I figured out tonight you have to take those little bolt thingy's out to keep the crome stuff off. I'm sure I'll have it done by next weekend. I'll call and have you drink me though changing the brake pads.
 
with all this "cheap" talk, I am still trying to find the down side of mog axles.. $2400 for a new pair of 404's, $1600 for used.. plus shipping...
the pinion kit is $100 an axle (not sure if the front needs this), brakes could be an issue, $1000 per axle for discs, and I think the front offset may be a problem? Oh, and the 7.13 gears wont be good for street....
in all they seem do-able... but so do pro-rocks that are bolt-in.. when you start adding the nickel and dime stuff...
I started planning D44's but the gains just dont seem to be worth it..hence, the 8 1/4 swap for now.. and the scout axle for sale...
I say, D60/ D70 type swap.. 70ish dodge is a close one I think?... plus, the idea of being able to get "stock" replacement parts can be a plus..
mindless ramble over.. :wave:
 
Lincoln said:
I don't know if I want to jump into this, you guys are mean and might make me cry.

Jeff, don't andy around with the 33 spline. You can do a 35 spline ARB and then run normal 60 shafts all the way out. Import shafts are about $550 and domestics in the $800 (?). If your not going to 4340's you might as well stick with the 44 and do Warn's or Superior shafts with CTM's. Strength wise they are in the same ballpark as a spicer 60 shaft. Though you could use the spicer stuff until it breaks then upgrade.

Width is a problem I haven't completely solved with king pin knuckles though. You can take a good inch off the inside of the 60 C where you would normally weld. I haven't gotten far enough into it to decide if that would help or not. At the very least the spring (not counting coilovers) would have to be partially mounted on the inner C to keep the width close to 63".

I'm really looking hard at the Ford superduty setup because of this. With the shorter stub lenth even if the axle ends up at 63" I can still run a little more positive offset wheel without having to worry about using the hubs as curb feelers. Cheap starts dropping from there. Hub needs to be bored, drilled to a normal bolt pattern, and high steer isn't as easy as a kingpin. Used axles aren't cheap either although any D50 would work for the knuckles. Also 16" wheels are required unless you use F-450 knuckles and adapt Willwood calipers to it.

Also from the measurements I've taken it pretty well requires the use of a retubed 78-79 Ford axle with the 3 1/8" tubes. The 2 3/4 tubes are only 1.75" ID (on the real ones) and that only leaves 1/8" around the outside. Doesn't leave much room to play with the seal by the diff. Also with the 2 3/4" tubes you have to sleeve the knuckle to reduce the size.

For the rear axle, even if you sleeve the tube you better have an alignment rod. You would be surprised on how far off they can be just because of tolorances in the tube. The oiling issues will depend on how many road miles drive it. I've seen some guys around here with retubed Ford fronts that have lasted 10 years and others that go through pinion bearings once a year (daily drivers).

After prying info out of Paul with a toothpick (it's like using a bat on an ant) I think the Ford housing with a Tru Hi9 third would be easier to deal with. The pumpkin can be pushed more towards the center so the knuckle is the only thing that has to be dealt with on the springs.

Bottom line I see $3000 on the extreme cheap side. Your looking at $1600-$1800 just in the axles and diff with the 44 center. I'll let you do the math on the Hi9. Mines going to get parts bought for the next year or so before I begin.

And Andy, take that back. I'm a little over two weeks on the hub change. I figured out tonight you have to take those little bolt thingy's out to keep the crome stuff off. I'm sure I'll have it done by next weekend. I'll call and have you drink me though changing the brake pads.
Click to expand...

I didn't know that you could run 35spline D60 shafts in a D44 center. That sounds like a good deal. It also sounds like finding an axle seal that installs in the diff and fits a D60 shaft is a problem. Keep us informed as to your progress. :) Jeff
 
Gil BullyKatz said:
Did you not read the title of the thread where it says CHEAP?

All money being equal...

would you rather sink $1000 into a Dana 30 than $1000 into a RC HP44?

Seems to me you could get more strength with less expense by starting stronger than stock...

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. IF all I had was $1000 to upgrade a front axle, I would much rather have a D30 with chromo shafts and CTM's than a HPD44 with stock shafts. No comparison at all........and I have trail experience to back that up. I run with a good number of guys who run that D30 combo, and have never seen them break an axle on the trail, while I've seen a whole bunch of broken stock D44 front shafts and u-joints. I know a couple of them who eventually broke the D30 ring and pinion, but they found it at home (a few broken teeth) and it didn't leave them broken down on the trail.
 
Lincoln said:
I don't know if I want to jump into this, you guys are mean and might make me cry.

Blah,
blah,
blah.

And Andy, take that back. I'm a little over two weeks on the hub change. I figured out tonight you have to take those little bolt thingy's out to keep the crome stuff off. I'm sure I'll have it done by next weekend. I'll call and have you drink me though changing the brake pads.
Click to expand...

Wow that post was helpful and informative. So out of character!
 
Goatman said:
I have to disagree. IF all I had was $1000 to upgrade a front axle, I would much rather have a D30 with chromo shafts and CTM's than a HPD44 with stock shafts. No comparison at all........and I have trail experience to back that up. I run with a good number of guys who run that D30 combo, and have never seen them break an axle on the trail, while I've seen a whole bunch of broken stock D44 front shafts and u-joints. I know a couple of them who eventually broke the D30 ring and pinion, but they found it at home (a few broken teeth) and it didn't leave them broken down on the trail.
Click to expand...

Hey, get this crap about D44 vs D30 out of my thread!!!!!!!!! :) I brought up the thought of purchasing ONE expensive HP 60 axle, combining it with a $20 HP 44 housing (and a number of other specialized parts) and getting a HP D60 rear AND a HP D44 front running D60 shafts/u-joints for perhaps less than bucks than all other options. Sure, one has to add in custom shafts (front and rear), high steer, custom bracketry, aftermarket housing ends for the rear and other misc. items, but one usually has to add these to just about any axle combination they build. Price goes up, but does it go up to the extent of ordering a Tera60 and Tera50 housing from some builder company? I don't know. What I wanted to know is if what I outlined would work and if it would be worth it. I found out some would work and some wouldn't. There may be other better options too. So lets keep it on topic about the custom axles. Here are a few more questions:

Will a stock HP D60 modified to run in the rear work ok or will oiling issues make it have problems? Are there modifications to the housing to make the oiling issues less troublesome?

Is a hp D44 center section combined with D60 outers and shafts with D60 joints a reliable combination or will the pinion or something become a problem area? Is there really a 35spline D44 ARB and does it cost more than a 31 spline D44 ARB? How much more? How about a 33 spline ARB? Can a 31 spline ARB be upgraded to 35 spline by swapping side gears? Are D60 alloy shafts more expensive than D44 alloy shafts and by how much? Who makes the custom length D60 shafts since I won't be able to call a Warn distributor and order stock replacement Alloy shafts. What about the axle seal in the diff? Anybody make one that will work?

If one were to do one of those custom 9" housings with 60 outer parts, what do they do for axle seals in the diff? Can the same thing be done with a D44 housing? What size tubes do they use? Since the 9" housings started life as rear ends, is there a place to install an axle seal in the diff? If not, how do they make a place for a seal when modifying a rear housing for use in the front? Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff
 
Yes, those ARB's are available. They cost the same as the larger ARB units, about $800 vs $740 for a regular 44 ARB (30 spline, not 31, btw).

The pinion shaft will be the weak link in the 44 housing. They are the same size as a 30 pinion.

The oiling issues really come into play at teh high operating angles inherent in a TJ or YJ. With the XJ, it should be better. A "sticky" synthetic lube helps the situation, as it stays up in the upper pinion bearing better.

Custom 60 shafts will run about $800 for a set, vs about $600 for a 44. Stick with the Superior Evo series, as the Yukon stuff is just absolute junk, as far as I'm concerned. The fit and finish is horrible at best.

CRASH

P.S. You're a demanding son-of-a-bitch lately!


Jeff 98XJ WI said:
Hey, get this crap about D44 vs D30 out of my thread!!!!!!!!! :) I brought up the thought of purchasing ONE expensive HP 60 axle, combining it with a $20 HP 44 housing (and a number of other specialized parts) and getting a HP D60 rear AND a HP D44 front running D60 shafts/u-joints for perhaps less than bucks than all other options. Sure, one has to add in custom shafts (front and rear), high steer, custom bracketry, aftermarket housing ends for the rear and other misc. items, but one usually has to add these to just about any axle combination they build. Price goes up, but does it go up to the extent of ordering a Tera60 and Tera50 housing from some builder company? I don't know. What I wanted to know is if what I outlined would work and if it would be worth it. I found out some would work and some wouldn't. There may be other better options too. So lets keep it on topic about the custom axles. Here are a few more questions:

Will a stock HP D60 modified to run in the rear work ok or will oiling issues make it have problems? Are there modifications to the housing to make the oiling issues less troublesome?

Is a hp D44 center section combined with D60 outers and shafts with D60 joints a reliable combination or will the pinion or something become a problem area? Is there really a 35spline D44 ARB and does it cost more than a 31 spline D44 ARB? How much more? How about a 33 spline ARB? Can a 31 spline ARB be upgraded to 35 spline by swapping side gears? Are D60 alloy shafts more expensive than D44 alloy shafts and by how much? Who makes the custom length D60 shafts since I won't be able to call a Warn distributor and order stock replacement Alloy shafts. What about the axle seal in the diff? Anybody make one that will work?

If one were to do one of those custom 9" housings with 60 outer parts, what do they do for axle seals in the diff? Can the same thing be done with a D44 housing? What size tubes do they use? Since the 9" housings started life as rear ends, is there a place to install an axle seal in the diff? If not, how do they make a place for a seal when modifying a rear housing for use in the front? Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff
Click to expand...
 
Jeff 98XJ WI said:
Hey, get this crap about D44 vs D30 out of my thread!!!!!!!!! :) I brought up the thought of purchasing ONE expensive HP 60 axle, combining it with a $20 HP 44 housing (and a number of other specialized parts) and getting a HP D60 rear AND a HP D44 front running D60 shafts/u-joints for perhaps less than bucks than all other options. Sure, one has to add in custom shafts (front and rear), high steer, custom bracketry, aftermarket housing ends for the rear and other misc. items, but one usually has to add these to just about any axle combination they build. Price goes up, but does it go up to the extent of ordering a Tera60 and Tera50 housing from some builder company? I don't know. What I wanted to know is if what I outlined would work and if it would be worth it. I found out some would work and some wouldn't. There may be other better options too. So lets keep it on topic about the custom axles. Here are a few more questions:

Will a stock HP D60 modified to run in the rear work ok or will oiling issues make it have problems? Are there modifications to the housing to make the oiling issues less troublesome?

Is a hp D44 center section combined with D60 outers and shafts with D60 joints a reliable combination or will the pinion or something become a problem area? Is there really a 35spline D44 ARB and does it cost more than a 31 spline D44 ARB? How much more? How about a 33 spline ARB? Can a 31 spline ARB be upgraded to 35 spline by swapping side gears? Are D60 alloy shafts more expensive than D44 alloy shafts and by how much? Who makes the custom length D60 shafts since I won't be able to call a Warn distributor and order stock replacement Alloy shafts. What about the axle seal in the diff? Anybody make one that will work?

If one were to do one of those custom 9" housings with 60 outer parts, what do they do for axle seals in the diff? Can the same thing be done with a D44 housing? What size tubes do they use? Since the 9" housings started life as rear ends, is there a place to install an axle seal in the diff? If not, how do they make a place for a seal when modifying a rear housing for use in the front? Just a few questions ON TOPIC!! :) Jeff
Click to expand...

I'd prefer to stay off topic on the D44 Vs D30, but it's your thread, so...

I can only comment on a couple of things.
A buddy of mine is getting his 60 shafts from Jack (CTM). I'm sure they're real cheap :)
I don't know if Warn makes 1.5" 60 blanks, but my custom 31 spline Warn inners were only $200 each. Little more than stock Warn 44 inners.
Currie epoxy's a short DOM tube inside the axle tube so a 44 seal fits like stock. I'd imagine they do the same with 60 stuff.
Keep in mind that with a 9" you can order custom tube Dia. & wall thickness.
When I spoke to Brian at Diamond Axle he said that this is how he gets the ID he needs for the appropriate seal.

Paul
 
David Taylor said:
Would this be 40 spline super bling stuff ? Can you get 40 spline outers ?
Click to expand...

If Jack gets his way, yes, the problem is that Garry won't run an ARB & it sounds like he can't get a 40 spline Detroit, which leaves him with little 35 spline junk.

Paul
 
Paul S said:
If Jack gets his way, yes, the problem is that Garry won't run an ARB & it sounds like he can't get a 40 spline Detroit, which leaves him with little 35 spline junk.

Paul
Click to expand...

I thought 40 spline detroits were readily available????

I can't believe Garry can't keep track of one stupid switch while driving. I'm beginning to question his status as a driver......

CRASH
 
This brings us back to the 44 topic and lockers. If I remember Richard is not running a selectable up front. Could this be leading to some of the breakage
he has been having ? Or is it just the 37"s (I hope not)?
Of course Jess is running the OX and gone trough two hubs so maybe not.
I'm hoping a light rig will let the 44 stand up to the 37's without breaking.
Time will tell I guess.
 
Worn out CTM's really contribute to axle breakage. The play in the bushing allows the axle to "ride up" and come out of alignment, thereby breaking the CTM. The hub breakage is just stress, and is not a bad weak link.

Drive flanges are always an option for you trailer queens.

I think both of Richards breaks were the result of that hellish night on Fordyce towing Poomba's junk around.

I think your light rigs will be fine with 37's......

CRASH
 
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