Any Non religious people here?

[JNickel101]

Ok...so if you're born in a Muslim country or into some African tribe, then you're just screwed from birth? That's fair....Don't really have much of a "choice" there...

Not referring to it out of context....read again:

Revelations 14 (KJV)

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God

Redeemed from Earth = going to Heaven = saved

Right?

 

[Darky]

Ok...so if you're born in a Muslim country or into some African tribe, then you're just screwed from birth? That's fair....Don't really have much of a "choice" there...

Not referring to it out of context....read again:

Revelations 14 (KJV)

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God

Redeemed from Earth = going to Heaven = saved

Right?

Doesn't refer to them as being the only ones being saved. Surely you remember the most famous bible verse of all, John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, and that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
When the Bible refers to everlasting life it is referring to being with God. Being with God equals being in Heaven. When it says "whosoever", note that there is no parenthesis stating "whosoever (of the chosen few)", it says whosoever. As in any that believe on Him for their salvation will be saved.

As far as being out of luck if you're born in a Muslim country, that's where the great commission comes from, to reach all those out there. Also, many missionaries return from lands that hadn't seen a missionary before with stories about the tribesmen and how they had already known what they were talking about.

 

[JNickel101]

Interpretation: the reason there are xxx,000 denominations of Christianity out there.

As Boatwrench's sig block says: "Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong"

 

[Darky]

Interpretation: the reason there are xxx,000 denominations of Christianity out there.

As Boatwrench's sig block says: "Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong"

I fully agree on this point. Too many people read the Bible and interpret things differently. I won't pretend I am 100% on the whole thing, but I like to think I have the basics, the essential building blocks right. Believe in Christ, admit you're a sinner, repent, and follow Him to the best of your ability. We'll all fall here and there, but the important thing is to realize it when you do, ask for forgiveness (and mean it, no "I'm sorry that I did it, please forgive so I can go do it again"), and keep pressing on.

EDIT: Actually one of the big debates in Christianity right now is pre or post tribulation rapture. I believe in pre, but moreso, I believe in pan trib, "Pre or post, it'll all pan out..." That's not a life or death point and I see no point trying to argue with those who disagree.

 

[JNickel101]

Just be a good person, is that so hard?

You realize that religion has caused more death in this world than every other cause?

 

[Darky]

Man has caused more death than any other cause. As I've said quite a few times here, religion is not to blame. If people were to read the Bible and obey what it actually says rather than adding to it and using it as an excuse, many of these "holy wars" wouldn't have happened. The Spanish Inquisition wouldn't have happened. Man's manipulation is what causes the problems. Take away all religion, man would still find reason to kill each other. It would just be about race, color, money, land, etc. And that's what lies at the root of a lot of the so-called "religious" fights. The Crusades weren't inspired by the Bible, they were about land. Christians have no claim on the Holy Land, Israel, and Jerusalem in particular. If you read the Bible, it's the Jews who were given that land. The Crusades were all about taking over some land in a prime trading area. Religion was the excuse. Without it, kings would've sent their men anyways but with a different excuse.

Being a good person is great for this life. I believe that when the body dies, the soul lives on. That's where faith comes in. If I thought death was the end, I live, I die, and nothing more, just being a good person would be all I needed to worry about. But I believe there's more than this.

 

[REVROK]

Just be a good person, is that so hard?

You realize that religion has caused more death in this world than every other cause?

Incorrect, the secular and specifically atheist states of the twentieth century killed more people than in all of the previous centuries of human recorded existence. We may never know how many were murdered by Hitler, Mao and Stalin combined, then add two world wars and all of the others and there you go.

Not that plenty have not used God as an excuse to be idiots. Man does not have a good record where Peace is concerned. In 4000 years of recorded history there have been about 250 years of peace.

 

[ZomBrady]

Incorrect, the secular and specifically atheist states of the twentieth century killed more people than in all of the previous centuries of human recorded existence. We may never know how many were murdered by Hitler, Mao and Stalin combined, then add two world wars and all of the others and there you go.

It doesn't matter if it was an 'atheist' or 'religious' state. Sick and evil people just need an excuse to kill other people.

 

[REVROK]

Off topic and random, but y'know I am embarrassed as I look at your red letters... mine lapsed and I have to wait until the budget allows in January to renew. Oh well...

It doesn't matter if it was an 'atheist' or 'religious' state. Sick and evil people just need an excuse to kill other people.

That is too true.

 

[ZomBrady]

Off topic and random, but y'know I am embarrassed as I look at your red letters... mine lapsed and I have to wait until the budget allows in January to renew. Oh well...



That is too true.

No worries about the 'red' lettering.

You know, I'm an atheist and I think that is one of the weakest arguments for or against religion/atheism. It's just null, it doesn't matter because whether you call it "evil/sin" or just part of the human experience, it just there for both sides of the debate.

I don't have a problem labeling something 'evil' if it fits my definition of evil (generally it is in agreement with your religious definitions). I've seen dogs with bloodlust, and it's not a far cry for me to believe that those socially abhorrent actions are simply part of the natural order of things. They are still bad/evil and I choose not accept them lying down.

But I can't believe that there's a god that created everything that chooses to allow these evils to persist in the world.


"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
~Epicurus

 

[bigalpha]

There isn't a difference in beliving in God or the big bang. Both started from nothing or they were always there.

I think God created the big bang because he was bored.(seriously)

The "Big Bang" did not start from nothing. The hypothesis is that it was a seriously compressed bunch of matter.

 

[GSequoia]

The "Big Bang" did not start from nothing.

You are correct.

First there was the bar tab...

 

[Darky]

No worries about the 'red' lettering.

You know, I'm an atheist and I think that is one of the weakest arguments for or against religion/atheism. It's just null, it doesn't matter because whether you call it "evil/sin" or just part of the human experience, it just there for both sides of the debate.

I don't have a problem labeling something 'evil' if it fits my definition of evil (generally it is in agreement with your religious definitions). I've seen dogs with bloodlust, and it's not a far cry for me to believe that those socially abhorrent actions are simply part of the natural order of things. They are still bad/evil and I choose not accept them lying down.

But I can't believe that there's a god that created everything that chooses to allow these evils to persist in the world.


"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
~Epicurus

God allows it because we weren't programmed as robots. He gave us free will to choose good or evil so that there could be no contention from Satan that we only obeyed because we had to.

 

[ZomBrady]

God allows it because we weren't programmed as robots. He gave us free will to choose good or evil so that there could be no contention from Satan that we only obeyed because we had to.

You can't tell me that a baby born with a cleft palette is somehow linked to our choices. A child is the very definition of innocent. Yet that child is being punished for merely existing? The idea that some 'god' would create a race of sentient beings so that they could 'choose' to worship him is a bit (a lot) disturbing to me.

No, I do not accept that. I accept that the world is a hard place with beauty and ugliness all around us.

 

[goodburbon]

You can't tell me that a baby born with a cleft palette is somehow linked to our choices. A child is the very definition of innocent. Yet that child is being punished for merely existing? The idea that some 'god' would create a race of sentient beings so that they could 'choose' to worship him is a bit (a lot) disturbing to me.

No, I do not accept that. I accept that the world is a hard place with beauty and ugliness all around us.

Especially if you have to choose based on that book with literally dozens of competing theories/ religions that are just as unlikely or outlandish. Remember ONLY the ones who choose the way YOU did, have gotten it right. Also remember that there are several of you who believe in the Christ in this thread and none of you agrees 100% on what is "truth" and what are just allegories.

 

[Darky]

And much like all of us here own XJs or MJs, there are still as many competing ideas about the best way to build an XJ as there are members, yet we still call ourselves an XJ club. Anytime you have a group of people with a common belief, there will be differences. What's important is the core. Revrok and I may disagree on certain points (don't know for sure) but I bet we agree on the facts that are most important.

 

[goodburbon]

And much like all of us here own XJs or MJs, there are still as many competing ideas about the best way to build an XJ as there are members, yet we still call ourselves an XJ club. Anytime you have a group of people with a common belief, there will be differences. What's important is the core. Revrok and I may disagree on certain points (don't know for sure) but I bet we agree on the facts that are most important.

I won't be sentenced to hell for eternity if I choose the wrong mod on my jeep.

 

[GSequoia]

I won't be sentenced to hell for eternity if I choose the wrong mod on my jeep.

You've obviously never met anybody who chose Thornbirds.
:doh:

 

[goodburbon]

You've obviously never met anybody who chose Thornbirds.
:doh:

I've chosen thornbirds.

 

[Deadman 94 xj]

LOL at anyone associating Logic with Religion. It's based on Faith, it can't be done.


I'm an in the closet Christian



(I'm a little late to the discussion )