Acetone will increase gas mileage?!?!?

[Goat]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

- and how do you burn hydrogen in an internal combustion engine? I'm honestly listening, here...

I'm not sure I understand your question...burning hydrogen in an ICE is the same as burning gas or propane.

 

[5-90]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Allow me to be spefici (since I've had this kicking around as well...)

How tolerant is your hydrogen generation system of impurities in the water? Why do you filter, since most electrolysis I've seen requires some sort of ion donor (usually common salt) to make the water conductive?

Fuel generation and storage - do you do your electrolysis at home or in the vehicle - or do you use some other process than electrolysis? Do you generate enough fuel to run the engine with your process, or is some storage required - and how?

Combustion/Ignition - how do you fire up the fuel, and what is your burn ratio? Do you combust in the presence of pure oxygen (as generated by electrolysis) or in ambient air? What sort of CR do you need, and what pressures are generated and retained by the head, block, and head gasket? Is oringing of the cylinder head required for an effective combustion seal? How about combustion heat?

Fuel metering? Can you still use a variation of the fuel injection system, or do you use a system similar to that used for LPG? Details, please.

Exhaust system - do you have problems with rusting, or do you handle this with the use of CRES or aluminised steel? The principal byproduct of hydrogen combustion is, of course, water. This will condense and cause trouble if you don't do something about it...

How do you handle the energy requirements of the electrolysis process vis-a-vis the typical automotive electrical system, and do you experience an energy deficit or an energy surplus?

I'm pretty openminded, but I do require a certain amount of information upon which to base a decision...

5-90

 

[jdougn]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

A question keeps running through my mind.

If increasing fuel mileage was this easy, why hasn't some company already done it?
:gag: The Petroleum Co's wouldn't and probably not car makers, but there are always outfits looking for an opportunity.

 

[MaXJohnson]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Summer gas is not the issue here. If you'd actually bother reading all of the links, you'd see there's been folks who've done the experiment with several fillups on the same day, same pump, same station, etc.

If you don't take the time to read the data with an open mind, why are you wasting time to snipe something you don't understand?

Which part of this discussion, other than your defensive attitude, do you think I don't understand? You might want to read up on the scientific method before putting too much faith in this miraculous breakthrough.

 

[Roll-over]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

- and if it does have some effect- and it will- it doesn't prove anything, because there's no control group in your experiment, and your experiment is not in keeping with the doserates at hand.

my bad...:rattle: so change of plan..... I should mix a .15% acetone/gasoline batch dunk the parts in and get the data to you in oh say 7-9 years... BUT, I will cut new pieces and set up a control set of unexposed tube and gasoline bathed tube... lets say two weeks duration?

 

[jjvande]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Apparently, the issue at hand is an increase in fuel efficiency (and by extension, fuel economy) by (someone let me know if I have the concept straight here) increasing the vapour pressure of gasoline.

Remember that liquid gasoline isn't even flammable. Gasoline vapours border on explosive. Therefore, it is very much in our interest to not atomise the fuel (thereby creating a fine mist of droplets - still liquid) but to actually vapourise the fuel (therefore, a true "phase change" from liquid to gas is in order.) Apparently, acetone helps this - mainly by reducing surface tension of the liquid and therefore making it easier to shift from a liquid to a vapour.


5-90

doesnt this contradict...? i could see that lowering the surface tension would decrease the droplet size...but then that would increase the surface area...and create more rapid vaporization...its a lovely circle of science...increasing vapor pressure would slow down the vaporization..right?

 

[Lucas]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Allow me to be spefici (since I've had this kicking around as well...)

How tolerant is your hydrogen generation system of impurities in the water? Why do you filter, since most electrolysis I've seen requires some sort of ion donor (usually common salt) to make the water conductive?

Fuel generation and storage - do you do your electrolysis at home or in the vehicle - or do you use some other process than electrolysis? Do you generate enough fuel to run the engine with your process, or is some storage required - and how?

Combustion/Ignition - how do you fire up the fuel, and what is your burn ratio? Do you combust in the presence of pure oxygen (as generated by electrolysis) or in ambient air? What sort of CR do you need, and what pressures are generated and retained by the head, block, and head gasket? Is oringing of the cylinder head required for an effective combustion seal? How about combustion heat?

Fuel metering? Can you still use a variation of the fuel injection system, or do you use a system similar to that used for LPG? Details, please.

Exhaust system - do you have problems with rusting, or do you handle this with the use of CRES or aluminised steel? The principal byproduct of hydrogen combustion is, of course, water. This will condense and cause trouble if you don't do something about it...

How do you handle the energy requirements of the electrolysis process vis-a-vis the typical automotive electrical system, and do you experience an energy deficit or an energy surplus?

I'm pretty openminded, but I do require a certain amount of information upon which to base a decision...

5-90

:lecture: :laugh3: Owned.

 

[burntkat]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

A question keeps running through my mind.

If increasing fuel mileage was this easy, why hasn't some company already done it?
:gag: The Petroleum Co's wouldn't and probably not car makers, but there are always outfits looking for an opportunity.

and here's the question going through my mind-

if we're actively showing results, why do people keep telling us it won't work?

 

[burntkat]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Which part of this discussion, other than your defensive attitude, do you think I don't understand? You might want to read up on the scientific method before putting too much faith in this miraculous breakthrough.

Oh, you changed my userid in the quote. How cute.

I know the scientific method pretty well, actually. That's why I'm using it during my testing. I'm also open to the idea that it may not work.

But so far, empirical evidence as generated by folks using the same station, same day, same pump- all indicates that it DOES work. this methodology pretty soundly trumps your sniping conclusion that it's all due to "summer gas" coming into play.

Why is it you have eyes, but cannot see?

 

[MaXJohnson]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

and here's the question going through my mind-

if we're actively showing results, why do people keep telling us it won't work?

Because your methods are flawed. Too much margin for error. Too much excitement!

 

[burntkat]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Because your methods are flawed. Too much margin for error. Too much excitement!

Well then- please tell me exactly how our methods are flawed? I'm being quite serious.

 

[MaXJohnson]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Well then- please tell me exactly how our methods are flawed? I'm being quite serious.

There's a lack of control over every aspect of your testing.

How much fuel is used, the ratio of fuel to acetone, state of tune, driving style, load, drive cycle, atmospheric conditions, psychological effect. The typical method of filling your tank and then keeping track of the miles lacks accuracy in all the above areas. The error rate snowballs. It is good for trending, but the margain of error is too great to expect an accurate MPG rate in a short period of time. Listening to some exclaim mileage gains less than half a tank into a test is laughable.

The real question, which has already been asked, is why isn't acetone in widespread use? My guess is that it probably has a negative impact on emissions. As an example, a higher combustion temp would result in an increase in NOX. It is also toxic, highly flammable and may cause damage to the fuel and emission (Oxygen sensor) systems.

If you believe in 100 MPG carburetors, then acetone might be the best thing since the electric starter.

 

[BrettM]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

There's a lack of control over every aspect of your testing.

How much fuel is used, the ratio of fuel to acetone, state of tune, driving style, load, drive cycle, atmospheric conditions, psychological effect. The typical method of filling your tank and then keeping track of the miles lacks accuracy in all the above areas. The error rate snowballs. It is good for trending, but the margain of error is too great to expect an accurate MPG rate in a short period of time. Listening to some exclaim mileage gains less than half a tank into a test is laughable.

The real question, which has already been asked, is why isn't acetone in widespread use? My guess is that it probably has a negative impact on emissions. As an example, a higher combustion temp would result in an increase in NOX. It is also toxic, highly flammable and may cause damage to the fuel and emission (Oxygen sensor) systems.

If you believe in 100 MPG carburetors, then acetone might be the best thing since the electric starter.

chill.

nobody has said they are convinced, just that their initial results are good and they're going to keep track of it. we're not publishing a study here, we're talking about results as they come in.

 

[burntkat]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

There's a lack of control over every aspect of your testing.

How much fuel is used, the ratio of fuel to acetone, state of tune, driving style, load, drive cycle, atmospheric conditions, psychological effect. .

How much fuel is used is tracked by simple math. I put in 20 gallons. I drove a while. I put in 6.8 gallons. I divide the distance travelled by the gallons I put in. <those are aribtrary numbers, to illustrate a point>

Ratio of fuel to acetone-- has been covered.

State of tune-- has not changed. I'm driving the same vehicle I've been driving, and I've not given it a tuneup in the middle of this test.

Driving style-- has not changed. I ride it hard as I always have.

Atmospheric conditions haven't changed in the short term of this test-- it's still raining. A nominal change of 20 degrees at best won't account for a large increase in mileage.

Load- has remained the same. I have just as much junk on/in the vehicle as I always have.

Drive cycle- same route to work, same time of day. Nothing's changed there, either.

Psychological effect. Hmm.. got me here. I guess thinking happy thoughts increases fuel economy? :flipoff:

sorry- as Brett said, these are initial results. I am curious how long it will be before we have long-term data that is hard to argue with, though. We've said things look "promising". No final word has been given, but to dismiss things out of hand is a bit much.

 

[Goat]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

5-90

I'll try to address all of your questions but I think that you have misunderstood one thing. I built a H2 generator but producing enough H2 to power a 350 is way too difficult. My generator works as an assit device.

The system is very tolerant to impurities in the water. H2 is produced no matter what, impurities tend to hinder the O2 production. I filter because I want to avoid production of chlorine gas, which means no NaCl. Distilled water would be the best, but filtered tap water works well. Standard tap water also contains other minerals and metals which would foul the electrodes pretty quickly depending on concentration.

Fuel generation is on the vehicle, there is no storage. It is pulled directly into the intake via the pcv valve port.

Ignition is standard, I can run more advance with the H2 running. CR can be increased as H2 has research octane of 130. I didn't take any special considerations with respect to the heads or head gaskets. I do think that hydrogen embrittlement of the valves would be a primary consideration once a certain ratio of H2 to gas is reached, however, I haven't completed all the chemistry to speculate to the ratio.

Currently I don't use any fuel metering device. The H2 feed is hooked up to a tee in the PCV circuit. The output feeds to the PCV valve and the valve output goes to the throttle body. The reason behind this is that the PCV valve will not flow at high vacuum (meaning idle or coast). I did this because H2 during idle makes the idle a bit unstable.

My exhaust is stainless as I live in the rust belt.

Current requirement can be adjusted via the water solution. Adding acid will increase the current draw, which increases H2 production. I use sulfuric acid beacause it is a very strong electrolyte. HCl would as well but it has Cl and I don't want that. So I use 1 tblsp to 1gal of water. This gives me a 10amp current draw.

Volume of gas produced can be calculated with Faraday's First Law.

 

[OT]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

I too, discovered a way to get more mileage out of a tank of gas.

I slowed down from 75mph to 60-65mph and I now get 500 miles out of a tank of gas in my '00 superado with 5.3L. Before I was only getting about 375 to 400 miles out of a tank FULL. Try it with your acetone and I'll bet you'll never run out of gas.

BTW, I plan to try the acetone trick myself to possibly get 600 miles out of my 26 gallon tank.

 

[jjvande]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

lets stay on topic folks...:laugh3:

 

[ChuckD]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

5-90

I'll try to address all of your questions but I think that you have misunderstood one thing. I built a H2 generator but producing enough H2 to power a 350 is way too difficult. My generator works as an assit device.

The system is very tolerant to impurities in the water. H2 is produced no matter what, impurities tend to hinder the O2 production. I filter because I want to avoid production of chlorine gas, which means no NaCl. Distilled water would be the best, but filtered tap water works well. Standard tap water also contains other minerals and metals which would foul the electrodes pretty quickly depending on concentration.

Fuel generation is on the vehicle, there is no storage. It is pulled directly into the intake via the pcv valve port.

Ignition is standard, I can run more advance with the H2 running. CR can be increased as H2 has research octane of 130. I didn't take any special considerations with respect to the heads or head gaskets. I do think that hydrogen embrittlement of the valves would be a primary consideration once a certain ratio of H2 to gas is reached, however, I haven't completed all the chemistry to speculate to the ratio.

Currently I don't use any fuel metering device. The H2 feed is hooked up to a tee in the PCV circuit. The output feeds to the PCV valve and the valve output goes to the throttle body. The reason behind this is that the PCV valve will not flow at high vacuum (meaning idle or coast). I did this because H2 during idle makes the idle a bit unstable.

My exhaust is stainless as I live in the rust belt.

Current requirement can be adjusted via the water solution. Adding acid will increase the current draw, which increases H2 production. I use sulfuric acid beacause it is a very strong electrolyte. HCl would as well but it has Cl and I don't want that. So I use 1 tblsp to 1gal of water. This gives me a 10amp current draw.

Volume of gas produced can be calculated with Faraday's First Law.

Ok Goat, no ones going to believe this H2 hocus pocus until you publish a very well written webpage on this. We want to see pictures! If it's on the internet it has to be REAL!

I really don't care if you highjacked the thread, but if you wanted to start your own. By all means, it is intersting, and belive it or not, it gives some credibility to our Commander and Chief.

 

[basalt51]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

The real question, which has already been asked, is why isn't acetone in widespread use?

Umm, can you guys not read or do you just have a memory problem?

Having spent some time in the commercial fuel additives business, maybe I can shed some light on this. The only difference between regular and premium fuels are the additives. They come out of the same spigot at the refinery. Octane is not a measure of the amount of energy in the fuel, but a measure of knock resistance. Surprisingly enough one of the ways octane is measured is actually running it in a reference engine under precise loads.

Having said all of that, there are two main additives that are used, acetone and toluene. Other items like stoddard solvent are also used. Stoddard solvent is mainly used as a fuel system cleaner, but the acetone and toluene also play a part in the process, but are mainly used to reduce the knock potential of the fuel. I used to run an ounce of each per each 10 gallons of fuel. Yes it helped the fuel mileage, but mainly from the perspective of keeping things clean.

 

[MaXJohnson]

Re: Acetone will increase MPG?!?!

Umm, can you guys not read or do you just have a memory problem?

I'll be the first to admit that I have a poor memory, but my reading is at least average. If you're having trouble understanding my position, I'll clarify my statement:

"The real question, which has already been asked, is why isn't acetone, in the quantity discussed in this thread, in widespread use?"