Use of Snowmobile "trails"

[Majo]

Ok a little background info

I'm in NY.

Up at college we occasionally wheel at this open park where power lines run it's open for dirtbikes, atv's, and jeeps. It's a fully open park, never heard any complaints anything from police or park personal for trucks being on it. Now in the winter there are absolutly no signs saying snowmobiles only. Being 20, I'm not gonan stick my nose in a huge legislative issue, but me and a couple of buddies where just playing in some 2 or 3 foot deep snow in this same said park. Now some snowmobilers come and start getting pissed off cursing and getting in my face, i happened to be lead vehicle. What gives them the right to do that?, it's open for all use and it's not zoned off for snowmobiles. We stayed in the main open area and never went down any of the smaller trails accessible in summber.??

Any input appreciated.

 

[Eagle]

Good discussion here:

http://forum.neow.net/index.php?showtopic=17468

[Edit]It starts off with some good discussion. The thread deteriorates for a few pages, then attempts to get back on topic toward the end.[/Edit]

 

[jeepguy97]

Here in PA we run the pipe and power lines. Snowmobilers run the pipelines big time in the winter and we always get cussed out for being there, but then they fly down the road at 120 mph and cus at us for being there too and we have the right of way there. Last year the lead vehicle in the group was rounding a turn ON THE ROADand was hit head on by a snowmobile that had to be going like 90 mph. And his buddies cussed at us. :nono:

 

[Majo]

What does the law do in a situation like that. I know full well that these sledders were just upset because they wanted to speed. I can respect their right to be out on the trails and stuff, but I dont' respect how fast they go. Last winter a landowner was sued by some idiots family up here because he was trespassing on someone's land and going over 100mph and decapitated himself on a barbed wire fence. There seems to be no end to how rude they sledders can be. Absolutely no excuse for them to get in my face especially seeing how he was older around his 40's or so. I would figure that they would be more calm about that situation.

 

[GSequoia]

seems to be no end to how rude they sledders can be.

I would be careful with what you say Majo, remember, the "other side" says the exact same thing about us in a way "All those Jeep guys go out and tear up the roads acting irresponsibly." Remember, what you're seeing most prominetly is the bad apples of the group, every group has them, even us.

Sequoia

 

[ChiXJeff]

There are definitely bad feelings on both sides of the fence.

I've done a little snowmobiling in northern MI...... and just like four wheelers, there's good ones and bad ones. I won't even say that one group has more good ones proportionately than another.

Majo, it's entirely possible that *NOBODY* has the rights to run the powerlines, whether it's snowmobiles, dirt bikes or off roaders. The utility companies are justifiably aware of liabilities.

On that note...... barbed wire, etc. In the State of MI, land owners very explicitly may NOT erect any barricades specifically to harass trespassers. 8 feet of woven wire to keep deer out is one thing. A single strand of barbed wire strung 4 feet off the ground is something else entirely.

Dad has a fair bit of ground that would be pretty good for sledding. Unfortunately, over the years, between the trash and the guys tearing everything up when there isn't enough snow cover, no one gets permission any more.

 

[PeterBuilt]

Word of advice, stay off the trails. From living in vermont for many years ive found that there is more snowmobile trails then roads. and i have gotten yelled out many of times up there when i first got up there but came to some conclusion. In the spring summer and fall i own the trails, if i see a snowmobile on the trails i would be mad, but they are not there. they have only a few months to ride. let them ride. its only fair. and it saves lives. 4,000lbs jeep and a 700lbs sled, with no airbag??? who would win. just my 2 cents

Pete

 

[Eagle]

Word of advice, stay off the trails. From living in vermont for many years ive found that there is more snowmobile trails then roads. and i have gotten yelled out many of times up there when i first got up there but came to some conclusion. In the spring summer and fall i own the trails, if i see a snowmobile on the trails i would be mad, but they are not there. they have only a few months to ride. let them ride. its only fair. and it saves lives. 4,000lbs jeep and a 700lbs sled, with no airbag??? who would win. just my 2 cents

Pete

Well, they have "trails" that are trails, and that a Jeep won't even fit on. And they have miles and miles of those, so I don't think they have any right to object when Jeepers who like winter wheeling want to go out of wider trails that are really old roads.

Majo is right, they just want to be free to speed. Recently here in Connecticut a snowmobiler ran down and killed a cross-country skier on one of the lakes. I'm quite sure it was an accident, but I suspect that being on an open, flat lake the snowmobile was going in excess of 100 MPH, and that's just irresponsible when the lakes are open for skiing, fishing, hiking, and multi-use recreation.

 

[Moto]

Yeah I have a gripe with the snowmobilers too, I used to own a sled and go snowmobiling, but a large number of them used to go out and break the laws and go sledding while drinking or whatever, and they have the nerve to complain about everything. I can however respect the club sledders that help maintain the trails and stuff and drive in an appropriate manner, but as we see in Jeeping, a few, or maybe more than a few people can be a bunch of buttholes and ruin it for everyone. My big gripe was that in Both NH and once in Maine the local ORV registry refused to sell me maps of the multiuse trails, and in more words or less said they would kick my ass if I went out there , because it was summer and they didnt want me to use my dirtbike on them. It pisses me off when stuff like that happens, sometimes the snowmobilers think they own the rights to all the damn trails everywhere and they don't, that is why there are designated trails for sleds only and then others for multi purpose use, and if there are snow trails open to people other than sledders then I wish that they would respect that and shut up when they see a Jeep, or a CC Skier or whatever on it. Most of us drive our Jeeps on the street to one extent or another, and our taxes go to maintain it, but you dont see us acting like we own the rights to the road and and acting as though it is normal to go 100mph down a street with pedestrians and then have the nerve to sue them or bitch that its not our fault we hit someone or that there are other people using the public roads, I mean in my opinion, thats basically what the sledders are doing on the multiuse trails. But whatever that's just my take on the situation

 

[Matthew Currie]

I think there is a difference between public and private trails. Here in Vermont most of the snowmobile trails are privately maintained and put there by permission of landowners, or are on public land with designated uses. Often that means that snowmobiles are permitted where other vehicles are not. I've also had hassles with snowmobilers trespassing, running me off the public road, harassing cross-country skiers on their OWN land, etc. But for the most part, the snowmobile trails belong to them because they are created and maintained by them, often at considerable expense. But Peterbuilt's argument only goes so far. I would research the ownership of the trails a little first, but then take no guff from any sledder if it's simply an unmaintained public way that they happen to be using. The organized snowmobilers have a great deal of clout, and have exclusive access to an immense network of trails on which their right of way is undisputed. This does not mean they own every inch of snow covered ground.

Most power lines are on private property, and the only rights of way belong to the power company and the landowner. Power lines are not public trails.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Well, it reads like a lot of sled bashing is going on here. I own two and ride all winter pretty much anywhere I can. If I'm on an unplowed road that is NOT a designated trail, it would be ok to see trucks there. However, if it is a designated snowmobile trail (at least here in WI), trucks are NOT allowed on them during the winter months. They will really rip up a nicely groomed flat trail. I'm more than happy to meet snowshoers, skiiers, Jeeps, etc out there. I'm also more than happy to go fast out there. If I come upon one of these other folks, I'll slow and wave as we pass. I might even stop to chat a bit. Can't we all just be nice and let others do as they please...within reason. Mutual respect is what is needed and is what I practice. BTW, there certainly are some bad apples out there as evidenced by the asswhipe who stole my expensive aluminum trailer off the back of my Jeep last Sunday night!

 

[Matthew Currie]

Well, it reads like a lot of sled bashing is going on here. I own two and ride all winter pretty much anywhere I can. If I'm on an unplowed road that is NOT a designated trail, it would be ok to see trucks there. However, if it is a designated snowmobile trail (at least here in WI), trucks are NOT allowed on them during the winter months. They will really rip up a nicely groomed flat trail. I'm more than happy to meet snowshoers, skiiers, Jeeps, etc out there. I'm also more than happy to go fast out there. If I come upon one of these other folks, I'll slow and wave as we pass. I might even stop to chat a bit. Can't we all just be nice and let others do as they please...within reason. Mutual respect is what is needed and is what I practice. BTW, there certainly are some bad apples out there as evidenced by the asswhipe who stole my expensive aluminum trailer off the back of my Jeep last Sunday night!

Here in Vermont most of the trails are on private property and dedicated to the purpose, so there's little conflict, though I did go cross-country skiing with a cousin's family when they were cussed out by a snowmobiler for skiing on their own land, which they had graciously permitted the trail to cross. There are regulations, and some very large and influential snowmobile groups that have worked hard to keep the balance, so such conflicts aren't the rule. But I note that Majo lives up in the North Country of NY. I don't know how things have changed there since I lived there in the early 70's (right next door to Potsdam in West Stockholm), but things might well be different up there. When I lived there, everybody and their kids had sleds, and rode them everywhere, roads, other people's yards, orchards, etc. The town roads were never sanded in winter, in deference to the snowmobiles. There did seem to be an attitude there that if there's snow on the ground the snowmobiles have the exclusive right to it wherever it is.

 

[XJHOX]

Being that I have to put up w/ 8 months of bad weather just to get to winter. I'am a active snowmobiler/ club member and Also active member of the local jeep club. I would say that if you looked into it, it could be a no winter matinence road which might give sleds more right to be there than you. I ride NY alot but I'm unsure of there laws for something like this. You say it's a park if so then call the park office and find out. I know a few of you guys said you were from PA. In my neck of the woods we (snowmobilers) have permission to use pipe/powerlines as part of the trail. Over the summer we called to get permission to wheel it in jeeps and the guy damn near fell off his seat laughing at us. If it were me I would probably just think it was cool, but I enjoy both sports.

 

[Kejtar]

I would say that if you looked into it, it could be a no winter matinence road which might give sleds more right to be there than you.

How would that give sledders more right then the jeepers?? Actually in this situation I'd say that the reverse would most likely be true as it is an actual "road"....

 

[jeepguy97]

Your right it is illegal to wheel the pipelines in PA but the powerlines are not posted so I cosider them fair game and pipelines are fun posted or not. The way I look at it your treading lightly using pipelines cuz the trails are already there so (and here comes the griping) Im gonna keep on using them.

 

[XJHOX]

Kejtar, The no winter mantinece roads are snowmobile roads in the winter. They are actually posted that way all year long. They will NOT plow entrances to the road or out of it. I uderstand what your saying, but who knows how they think in the great commonwealth of PA :laugh3:

 

[Kejtar]

Kejtar, The no winter mantinece roads are snowmobile roads in the winter. They are actually posted that way all year long. They will NOT plow entrances to the road or out of it. I uderstand what your saying, but who knows how they think in the great commonwealth of PA :laugh3:

Well that is different. If they are posted as such I will agree, but if there is only sign saying that at winter time a certain road is not plowed, in my book this by any means implies that it is closed to wheeled traffic

 

[CheapXJ]

Well that is different. If they are posted as such I will agree, but if there is only sign saying that at winter time a certain road is not plowed, in my book this by any means implies that it is closed to wheeled traffic

the road I live on is not plowed!!!!

it's DEFINITELY open to wheeled traffic, PennDOT is just fawkin lazy, the letter of the law there is very confusing as well, many "closed" spots are not closed by letter of the law, but rather partisan interpretation of said laws.

and ANYTHING not posted is fair game. We had a big deal about parking in handicapped spaces since the signs didn't mention anything about a fine or requiring a permit to park there, people were doing it and getting away with it.

 

[XJHOX]

CheapXJ your part of town must be even more backwards then mine. Letting people park in handicap spots thats just wrong. Its even worse that people are so lazy they would park there in the first place.