This really pisses me off

[8Mud]

Just a couple of things to take into consideration. The general animosity towards immigrants, illegal or legal, does create a backlash. It may not affect you personally, but then again who can say for sure where you'll be working in a few years time.
There are something like three million Americans working and living in Germany, a like number in France, actually more in Spain. When you add it all up, it's way more people than the entire population of Montana or Wyoming.
There are actually more first and second generation Germans living in Los Angeles than in say Frankfurt Germany.
Baja California is much like a suburb of L.A. (maybe San Diego), I wonder how many of the neighbors hate the American born residents because of the way they were treated in the US. The world is a whole lot smaller than you suppose and a whole lot bigger than your tiny life experience.
People IMO have way to narrow view of the world, parochial at best, selfish by degrees. And the perceived benefits of narrow agendas, may be the sorriest position of all.
I've got nothing against immigration personally, with a few stipulations, that the immigrants try to integrate at least to a degree, there traditions (food, dress etc.) will likely be incorporated into the whole anyway. If they try to move in and take over and try to change there new home into the paradise they ran away from in the first place, I can understand some animosity.
My last few comments, the status quo is the most unstable social structure of all (Sociology 101).
Most Governments are more a control mechanism than servants (no matter how they spin it), And they fear the importation of new or different ideas.
The Germans actually offer me way more social help than I'm prepared to accept. The vast majority of immigrants value there independence and it's likely the majority doesn't milk the system with vigor, but likely takes advantage of programs that are promoted or freely offered. I'm confronted with racism on a daily basis (I have an accent), I know how it feels to be on the other side of a racist idiot.
I recently went to court for a traffic accident, the others guys lawyers argument was that his client had to be right, because I had no business being here in the first place. Funny, comparing my pedigree to the other guy or even his lawyer and likely the Judge, I was likely the more German of the bunch genetically. What has where you were born and where you went to school actually have to do with any of it? Immigration, naturalization and citizenship law, is a really thin facade for a largely synthetic system of law, where right and wrong play a really small part. What does a Quota system and the phrase "All men are created equal" have to do with each other. Quotas are governmental racism. People spout the word "Law" like it was the Gospel or the "Ten Commandments". And imply that because it's the law, it is actually rational and makes sense.
If anybody has any trouble opening there mind a little, I'd be happy to lend them a chisel and hammer.

 

[Darky]

Well my school gave me 2 days suspention because a "african American" cut me in the lunch line and I said, "is it because I'm white?" LoL it is funny how we can't win in our country.:skull2:

and its funny how we mention illegal immigration and the idiots come out...This is my country every bit as much as yours...Blacks got here illegally, against their will. Your comment, is it cuz I'm white may have been a joke, and that's fine. I like racial humor myself, that's what me and my friends joked around about mostly. But don't start talking about how you can't win in your country...And yes I agree, very few blacks are "african-american". Not anymore at least.

 

[Prowler]

What I said is true and goes to anything. Don't consider everything racist.

(BTW BlackSport-beautiful jeep! Looks just like mine!)

 

[Darky]

8Mud - The thing is here, that you most likely emigrated to Germany legally and apparently have learned German. My problem lies with those who move here illegally, don't learn English, and expect me to speak Spanish. Most of the immigrants here are likely using the system. I have no facts to back it up that they are abusing the system, but I have my hunches. It would only fit with their choice to illegally enter this country. If an illegal gets hurt and goes to the hospital, he gets trated and we pay. If I go to the hospital, I have to jump through hoops, fill out paperwork, etc in order to get treated.


PS, Prowler, my Jeep is less purty now...its been spray painted flat black to cover the oxidation and I cut the front fenders now. They don't match, but the flares hide it and make the shapes line up...

 

[8Mud]

8Mud - The thing is here, that you most likely emigrated to Germany legally and apparently have learned German. My problem lies with those who move here illegally, don't learn English, and expect me to speak Spanish. Most of the immigrants here are likely using the system. I have no facts to back it up that they are abusing the system, but I have my hunches. It would only fit with their choice to illegally enter this country. If an illegal gets hurt and goes to the hospital, he gets trated and we pay. If I go to the hospital, I have to jump through hoops, fill out paperwork, etc in order to get treated.


PS, Prowler, my Jeep is less purty now...its been spray painted flat black to cover the oxidation and I cut the front fenders now. They don't match, but the flares hide it and make the shapes line up...

Funny you should bring up language, the predominant (American) attitude here (in Germany), is the folken Germans should get civilized and learn some English. Most actually speak some English and understand more. Europe is much as if every state in the US had another language, you are almost forced to be multi lingual. I have to say, German was hard for me, Spanish was much easier. I have little talent for languages, maybe it's my tin ear.
I really believe being multi lingual is a plus. Just my opinion and an observation, language is much like music. Some people have more natural talent than others. They say learning music may expand brain function in positive ways, so may a second language. All my kids (and wife) are fluent in English and a couple even have more languages, one has four.
IMO most people are just too busy surviving, to sit in waiting areas, spend hours on the phone or network enough to be really proficient in seriously milking the system. Though there is undoubtedly some networking going on, on how to get the most out of the government (not only immigrants).
Offering some kind of health care, IMO is just a form of self preservation. Can you imagine a parallel social structure, your neighbors and co-workers, living in a society with endemic Tuberculosis, Polio, Yellow fever or what not.
Much the same thing is going on in Europe, the EU did away with most borders. There are large numbers of immigrants that don't speak the language looking for work and a place to live. The laws and rules are in flux and in transition.
I personally think, building fences and trying to purge whomever, is a short step away from what happened to the Jews in Germany, the Albanians in Kosovo and the what is happening now in Darfur. The people slipped in someway, some how, over the years and now they are being driven out to be somebody else's problem.
Sorry to say it, but the movement against the Mexicans (and other people from the South) in the US, stinks of hypocrisy. If they came in wanting to change the USA into the US of Mexico, I could maybe understand some animosity. But seriously, some kind of social integration is bound to happen, no matter how hard you fight it. The French have been trying to pass a law banning McDonalds, because they don't want to be Americanized.

 

[Bdiddy11]

I just recieved this e-mail from an old co-worker....

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed.

Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue.

Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the patio table...everywhere.

Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.

And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food. After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone.

I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio. Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now lets see...our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a automatic citizen.

Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English: Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.


Like 8Mud said... it helps being bi/tri-lingual etc... but having to change automated systems so you have to press 'one' just to hear it in English... I doubt in most other countries you have the option to 'press one' to hear it in English. You have to learn that language of the country you're in to use machines or get around. If you're going to come to the U.S. where English has been the primary language for the past however many years, have the decency to learn some English if you plan on living or staying here awhile. It does create jobs for people because they have to translate for those who don't speak English. But it's down right pathetic how people can live in the states for 5+ years and know very very little English other than 'My name is ____ I don't speaka English'

The issue is people coming into the states illegally. It's straight up against the law. People spout the word 'Law' 8Mud like it was gospel because the 'Ten Commandments' is LAW. It's God's law. Just like illegal immigration is against the LAW, Man's law.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

The French have been trying to pass a law banning McDonalds

That almost makes me respect the French

Le Big Mac est, ques ca c'est le mot..l'excre'memt! qui?


This is only my third post in this thread. I got in early when the topic was churches shielding illegal immigrants, and illegal immigrants using children (American citizens) as shields for illegal activities (i.e. avoiding deportation). After that the discussion went a bit reactionary.

I don't intend, here, to take a position in opposition to you. I think we're pretty close on our views of this mess. However, you do bring up a point that is relevant (at least from my perspective) to the case for making an effort to minimize the number of undocumented individuals within the US, and that is health care. Despite the assertions that the illegals are bleeding our health care system dry (possibly overstated), the fact remains that there exists in the US a large population of undocumented individuals. This is problematic from a health standpoint. Not that they are by nature of being undocumented, automatically contagious. The problem arises when you try to implement disease control. Having such a large undocumented population throws a large wrench into the epidemiology of disease control. There might be a financial benefit for those who employ undocumented workers, and the consumer might benefit from lower prices, but those benefits do not allay the risk to the general population when the CDC is trying to coordinate containment of some infectious agent while a large number of potential victims and carriers is running around, untraceable.

Now I don't bring this up as a rallying point for torch bearing pitchfork menacing mobs to start rounding up anybody who looks remotely transborderish (5-90: Is that a word, or did I just add to the FUBAR factor in modern English ). I only wish to point out that there is another element beside "Thar takin' are jobs!" that argues against simply ignoring the presence of undocumented individuals within our borders.

Besides; It's the law! Obey the law. I do, and I think they should, as well.

 

[8Mud]

Just for the record, I walked into my regular gas station today and noticed they had a new pre paid phone card machine, in 8 languages. They didn't even have instructions, but flags on the language selection buttons and even then it was mostly in pictographs. Amazing the lengths some people will go to, to make a sale. How many languages can you say "money" in. "Dollar" is one American word most everybody understands.
Just an opinion, no matter how unfair or screwed up it is, you are likely eventually going to have to deal with it. May as well start now or you can twist yourself in knots trying to resist it. I think trying to drive them out, building a wall and hiring a couple of million immigration police isn't going to improve things much and actually smells a lot like fascism. Tongue in cheek, not to be taken too seriously OK?
Funny I didn't much care for the direction California was headed, like 30 years ago. It had nothing to do with the illegal immigrants, it was mostly the legal immigrants from the East coast moving in and taking over. From all accounts things haven't improved much. Since then I've built a fairly stable life somewhere else.

 

[5-90]

That almost makes me respect the French

Le Big Mac est, ques ca c'est le mot..l'excre'memt! qui?

Now I don't bring this up as a rallying point for torch bearing pitchfork menacing mobs to start rounding up anybody who looks remotely transborderish (5-90: Is that a word, or did I just add to the FUBAR factor in modern English ). I only wish to point out that there is another element beside "Thar takin' are jobs!" that argues against simply ignoring the presence of undocumented individuals within our borders.

Besides; It's the law! Obey the law. I do, and I think they should, as well.

"Transborderish?" I don't think that was a word until I read it two minutes ago. Since I don't recognise it, or have in ring any bells, I think you've gone and created a new word (so you couldn't have used it wrong!) Part of the flexibility of English - the ability to create new words from whole cloth (which is probably why it's the international language of aviation and technology, and becoming the international language of business...)

Of course, the comparison was made between "God's Law" and "Laws of Man." God's laws are fairly simple, and the system is static. There may be some 600-odd of God's laws in toto (RichP - you corrected me once on this point...) but nearly all of them cover items and actions that are malum in se, or wrong in and of themselves.

Man's Law is different. Much of the laws of man cover acts and such that are malum prohibitum - "wrong because we say they're wrong." Take a seatbelt law, for instance. Why should I, as an adult, be penalised for making a fully-informed decision to not wear my seat belt? Perhaps I'm just moving a vehicle from the front street to the garage around back, and the total movement will be about 200 yards. There's little traffic here, and it would be much easier on my knees to move the vehicle under its own power.

Yet, if I should do so, and not wear a seat belt (pointless. I'm not going to go faster than a walk anyhow) I can still be pulled over, fined, and ticketed because I didn't bother to follow the "click it or ticket" campaign (I guess California really is broke!)

Another example is prostitution - it has been shown that prostitution actually has a salutary effect on the reduction of other crimes of violence, yet it is illegal. No-one is hurt by it (directly. There may be some side effects, but that would largely be on an individual basis) when it is legalised - yet, it's not legal here (save for brothel houses in Nevada.)

If it were legalised, the occurrences of VD associated with prostitution would become almost non-existant. After all, they wouldn't be afraid to go to the doctor.

Sex crimes (rape, sexual battery, et al) have also dropped dramatically in locales where prostitution is legalised.

And, legalisation of prostitution would be of benefit to the government; since it would no longer be underground, it could be taxed as well.

There's nothing inherently or morally wrong with prostitution - why is it illegal?

It's bad enough that there are thousands of manmade "rules" that we have to follow (yet we are probably not made aware of...) while "God's Law" has remained static and unchanged for a good couple thousand years. I know that the times change - but if the times change, and the laws change, then perhaps they should make sure that the laws make some sense when they do. And, let's get started with eliminating laws which simply do not apply anymore...

(Google an e-book called "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do," which covers the subject rather well.)

As far as the Frogs banning McD's? No trouble there - I never really did like their ersatz food anyhow...

 

[Bdiddy11]

There's all sorts of crazy laws that don't really deal with our time anymore...

Boise:
Residents may not fish from a giraffe's back.
Utah:
Birds have the right of way on all highways.
It is considered an offense to hunt whales.
California:
It is a misdemeanor to shoot at any kind of game from a moving vehicle, unless the target is a whale.
Florida:
It is illegal to sell your children.
A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.

And this last one...





Having sexual relations with a porcupine is illegal.


Why on earth would you want to do that? Only in Florida....and I thought it would be Alabama or Kentucky or something...

This one is for you New Yorkers...
Women may go topless in public, providing it is not being used as a business.


Mexico:
It is illegal to shout offensive words in any public place.
France:
An ashtray is considered to be a deadly weapon.

The world is full of crazy laws...
Oregon:
It is illegal to buy or sell marijuana, but it is legal to smoke it on your own property.

This is where I found these laws...

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/alabama/

It's amazing we have so many rediculous laws... if only we could inforce them. I saw a guy fishing from a giraffe just the other day. Now about those illegal border crossing taco makers...

 

[5-90]

There's all sorts of crazy laws that don't really deal with our time anymore...

Hell, when did they apply?

Florida: It is unlawful to pull an alligator to the side of the road for the purpose of selling him something.

Indiana: It is unlawful for any man to shave himself (OK - that helps the barbers make money 'way back when. But now?)

In New York, in the subway, spitting on the walkway is a $50 fine. Vomiting is free. (Yes, I know there's a justification for this to some degree, but it sounds like bogon* emissions on the face of it...)

"Indecent exposure" laws derive from the nudity taboo brought over here by the Puritans - you'll note that European attitudes toward nudity are rather relaxed. The only real inconvenience of nudity when the weather is clement is the lack of pockets...






* "bogon" - A bogon is a quantum particle/amount of bull****. "Emitting bogons" or "bogon emissions" is the readily detectible spouting of useless crap.

 

[Bdiddy11]

Just sucks to be living in Utah and having to give the right a way to a bird...I really wanted to go down to the Boise river on my giraffe and catch some trout. That's too bad...

Some of the things man comes up with as far as laws ... it's hard to think of a word to describe how absurd it is.

Another suggestion I think somebody said earlier... If people feel like they can just walk across the border illegally and take advantage of our government... once caught send them off to serve the country for a few years... then deport them back and let them try to come back the legal way...

 

[XJ Dreamin']

"Transborderish?" I don't think that was a word until I read it two minutes ago. Since I don't recognise it, or have in ring any bells, I think you've gone and created a new word (so you couldn't have used it wrong!) Part of the flexibility of English - the ability to create new words from whole cloth (which is probably why it's the international language of aviation and technology, and becoming the international language of business...)

Of course, the comparison was made between "God's Law" and "Laws of Man." God's laws are fairly simple, and the system is static. There may be some 600-odd of God's laws in toto (RichP - you corrected me once on this point...) but nearly all of them cover items and actions that are malum in se, or wrong in and of themselves.

Man's Law is different. Much of the laws of man cover acts and such that are malum prohibitum - "wrong because we say they're wrong." Take a seatbelt law, for instance. Why should I, as an adult, be penalised for making a fully-informed decision to not wear my seat belt? Perhaps I'm just moving a vehicle from the front street to the garage around back, and the total movement will be about 200 yards. There's little traffic here, and it would be much easier on my knees to move the vehicle under its own power.

Yet, if I should do so, and not wear a seat belt (pointless. I'm not going to go faster than a walk anyhow) I can still be pulled over, fined, and ticketed because I didn't bother to follow the "click it or ticket" campaign (I guess California really is broke!)

Another example is prostitution - it has been shown that prostitution actually has a salutary effect on the reduction of other crimes of violence, yet it is illegal. No-one is hurt by it (directly. There may be some side effects, but that would largely be on an individual basis) when it is legalised - yet, it's not legal here (save for brothel houses in Nevada.)

If it were legalised, the occurrences of VD associated with prostitution would become almost non-existant. After all, they wouldn't be afraid to go to the doctor.

Sex crimes (rape, sexual battery, et al) have also dropped dramatically in locales where prostitution is legalised.

And, legalisation of prostitution would be of benefit to the government; since it would no longer be underground, it could be taxed as well.

There's nothing inherently or morally wrong with prostitution - why is it illegal?

It's bad enough that there are thousands of manmade "rules" that we have to follow (yet we are probably not made aware of...) while "God's Law" has remained static and unchanged for a good couple thousand years. I know that the times change - but if the times change, and the laws change, then perhaps they should make sure that the laws make some sense when they do. And, let's get started with eliminating laws which simply do not apply anymore...

(Google an e-book called "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do," which covers the subject rather well.)

As far as the Frogs banning McD's? No trouble there - I never really did like their ersatz food anyhow...

Well, they are here in violation of immigration law. Either deport them or change/revoke the law. One way or another, I want them legal or gone.

 

[8Mud]

Well, they are here in violation of immigration law. Either deport them or change/revoke the law. One way or another, I want them legal or gone.

I think sooner or later people are going to have to compromise there "right to privacy" (though I really don't know where this right originated, or if it is actually a true right or just somebodies catchy phrase or even if it in fact exists). Scoop them up, document them with a picture, thumb print, bar code or whatever it takes, ID card. With a chip with relevant info, maybe even a list of inoculations.
IMO you have to have some kind of control, before you actually start trying to shove them back where they came from. Scooping them up and pushing them back across the border is a poor policy, bound to be circumvented eventually by most any reasonably intelligent person.
Get somebody busy cross referencing data bases.
Maybe even copy the German model. They have a way of doing it that is very unobtrusive, but very thorough. Dropping off of the radar in Germany is almost impossible. Big brother sure enough watches, but actually doesn't mess with you much.
Here in Germany when you change addresses, you have to register at the local cop station.
If they have taxes they can't account for, or income without taxes they can't account for, it doesn't take long for somebody to show up for a look see.
Somebody mentioned scooping up illegal aliens and inducting them into the Armed forces. Sounds like a plan to me, make them earn there citizenship. Give them a head start on integrating into American society. In my opinion Hispanics are some of the best troops I ever served with.

 

[RichP]

Calif alone has lost 65 Emergency rooms statewide in the last 10 years due to having to give free medical service to illegals with no coverage. They don't get reimbursed. We are talking ER's that lost between $9-$80 MILLION a year. Thats just one state. It gets worse in other border states and the states alongside them. Here is some interesting reading http://www.iom.edu/?ID=16107

As for the ~615 commandments, some were strange but alot made sense as far as health went as they knew it back then. A lot of the jewish rules can be attributed to no refrigeration, pork is a bad thing if not cooked properly same with preserving it, too many people died from it in both christian, muslim and jewish communities. It was also a good idea to bury your dead by sunset and not have them hang around in the living room in 100F temperatures.
If the living room comment sounds strange I'll mention I came from a irish italian neighborhood and it was common practice to have viewings and wakes in your home at least thru the 50's with the deceased usually residing for 2 or 3 days in your front parlor...

 

[RichP]

Somebody mentioned scooping up illegal aliens and inducting them into the Armed forces. Sounds like a plan to me, make them earn there citizenship. Give them a head start on integrating into American society. In my opinion Hispanics are some of the best troops I ever served with.

That is already there and in place, you can enlist at any embassy or consulate in the world and be sent to boot camp. I think the marines get most of them but they are already there at the embassies with no navy, AF or Army competition arty: .
My guard unit had 2 russians, 2 poles and 3 czeks who enlisted in the guard while they were over here on student visas, they ran out of money in their second year of college and the guard was a good deal. Three of them went active army after they graduated.

 

[SwiftShot]

People get pissed because Americans can get visas and go to there country no problem. They dont understand why they have to use a lottery system and cant just come over. The correct answer is anyone from a country with a good economy can come over pretty easily like japan, australia new zealand and europe. Its because they will go home. We cant get them to leave. I dont blame them either.

 

[8Mud]

Calif alone has lost 65 Emergency rooms statewide in the last 10 years due to having to give free medical service to illegals with no coverage. They don't get reimbursed. We are talking ER's that lost between $9-$80 MILLION a year. Thats just one state. It gets worse in other border states and the states alongside them. Here is some interesting reading http://www.iom.edu/?ID=16107

I'm not offering Germany's system as the ideal solution, there method also has problems. Basically it has the younger healthier population mostly paying for the older generation, it is a kind of social oriented setup (much like social security). It strikes me as a system that is a pyramid type thing that is bound to collapse sooner or later, but seems to somewhat function for the present.
Everybody pays a percentage of there income, into a basic health insurance plan. Usually the employer pays half and the employee pays half of the base coverage. There are a number of health insurance companies to choose from. The basic plan, may see you in a six person room if you end up in the hospital. Or the high end plan, with a private room and free cable.
But everybody is going to be treated in the emergency room and receive care. Even if they aren't insured (which is really rare).
The insurance companies negotiate with the Doctors for approved treatments and fees for most any illness. It isn't as much a regulated system as it is a mutual supporting system, everybody makes an acceptable profit, the patient isn't taxed beyond his resources.
The government is pretty darned hard on employers or employees that try to circumvent the system. The government polices the system and regulates it somewhat. If (when) caught uninsured, you are subject to back payments and may be paying double premiums for the rest of your life. If you get caught dodging taxes, you will likely receive a fine and may have to pay token payments for decades. They are harder on people who try to dodge the health system than tax dodgers.
For social cases, the government pays the minimum base coverage.
The system does have it's down sides. New treatments and medicines are slow to make it into the system. When the system gets out of balance, it usually results in reduced procedures and/or added co payments. They recently started a sir charge, I guess so one of the insurance companies could pay for a new building, that they really didn't need.
As long as nobody gets excessively greedy or the population isn't taxed beyond there means, it seems to work out, mostly.

 

[RichP]

Social security here is not a pyramid scheme, it's more of a lottery kinda. When SS was started the average age before dying in the 30's was like 45-50, we lost alot of people to unsafe working conditions, alot more than now, so they felt pretty safe setting the SS age at 60, figuring 60-70% would not live to collect. Thats not true anymore, if SS was started again from scratch you would see the minimum collection age set to around 80, maybe 85. If the govt had been required to put those moneys in a trust fund not to be touched for govt spending or programs but only used for SS the fund would be HUGE now, as in trillions huge.

 

[5-90]

Social security here is not a pyramid scheme, it's more of a lottery kinda. When SS was started the average age before dying in the 30's was like 45-50, we lost alot of people to unsafe working conditions, alot more than now, so they felt pretty safe setting the SS age at 60, figuring 60-70% would not live to collect. Thats not true anymore, if SS was started again from scratch you would see the minimum collection age set to around 80, maybe 85. If the govt had been required to put those moneys in a trust fund not to be touched for govt spending or programs but only used for SS the fund would be HUGE now, as in trillions huge.

There's also the simple fact that Social (in)Security was not set up to last this long - it was a stopgap measure brought about during the Great Depression, and was only supposed to last 5-10 years.

The other problem is that the Baby Boomers (children of WWII, b. 1945-1960) are all reaching retirement age - and no-one foresaw the Boom at all. Oops.

But, as they say, "Hindsight is always 20/20." It's easier to analyse problems after they've happened than it is to anticipate them.