- Location
- NE Texas
I'm Especially pleased to see the stickers still on the rig..:cheers:
The Nail Salon
- Thread starter TORX
- Start date
Spent some time Friday evening giving the rig an alignment, since I never really checked anything after the final install. Found the wheelbase to be slightly out of square, so I adjusted that. Found the caster to be ~3 degrees, adjusted it to ~5.5 degrees. This explains the wandering on the road.
Next I mocked up some front drivelines to see if any of the stockers I have would work. I found my old one bolted right up, with a good amount of slip left in it. I think eventually I'll pony up, and have some new ones made up out of heavy wall tube.
My task for today was getting started on plumbing the ARB's. This meant mounting and wiring up the ARB compressor I got for them (CKMA12). I stared at the engine bay with little luck in finding a spot. After brainstorming some other options I settled on under the front passenger seat. The compressor seemed to fit perfectly under there. It would be out of the elements, and the stock wiring harness wouldn't have to be modified.
Trimmed the carpet out of the way, and built a mounting bracket for the compressor.
Mounted the compressor. I clocked the compressor about ninety degrees for a more lower profile.
Seat back in place. I did quick and minimal install on the wiring harness to get the compressor functional for next weeks run. It's actually pretty quiet when operating. It will only run to pressurize the lockers (~5 sec), so I'm not worried about the noise.
I have two mechanical air valves enroute from Ohio, I hope to have early next week :fingerscrossed:. Then I can tackle the air line plumbing for the lockers.
After a productive day, I decided to drive the Nail Salon home to get some miles on it. The alignment seemed to do the trick to cure the wandering. After cresting a small hill, I felt a surge and then instant howling coming from the rear end. I pulled over to investigate, and found the wheel bearings and brakes cool to the touch, diff cover was cool to the touch, and then burned my hand when I grabbed the pinion yoke...
Yep, the 60 is done. I was able to limp it back with a nearly seized/smoking bearing. Howled when on the gas, but went quiet when coasting. I suspect it's a pinion bearing issue, possibly setup related or oiling related (yes, I put oil in the diff). Regardless, I'm pretty bummed right now. All the work I've put it trying to get the rig ready for the Thanksgiving Run seems like it just went down the drain.
I'll be giving my gear guy a call tomorrow to discuss what happened and hopefully find a solution. This sucks.
Next I mocked up some front drivelines to see if any of the stockers I have would work. I found my old one bolted right up, with a good amount of slip left in it. I think eventually I'll pony up, and have some new ones made up out of heavy wall tube.
My task for today was getting started on plumbing the ARB's. This meant mounting and wiring up the ARB compressor I got for them (CKMA12). I stared at the engine bay with little luck in finding a spot. After brainstorming some other options I settled on under the front passenger seat. The compressor seemed to fit perfectly under there. It would be out of the elements, and the stock wiring harness wouldn't have to be modified.
Trimmed the carpet out of the way, and built a mounting bracket for the compressor.
Mounted the compressor. I clocked the compressor about ninety degrees for a more lower profile.
Seat back in place. I did quick and minimal install on the wiring harness to get the compressor functional for next weeks run. It's actually pretty quiet when operating. It will only run to pressurize the lockers (~5 sec), so I'm not worried about the noise.
I have two mechanical air valves enroute from Ohio, I hope to have early next week :fingerscrossed:. Then I can tackle the air line plumbing for the lockers.
After a productive day, I decided to drive the Nail Salon home to get some miles on it. The alignment seemed to do the trick to cure the wandering. After cresting a small hill, I felt a surge and then instant howling coming from the rear end. I pulled over to investigate, and found the wheel bearings and brakes cool to the touch, diff cover was cool to the touch, and then burned my hand when I grabbed the pinion yoke...
Yep, the 60 is done. I was able to limp it back with a nearly seized/smoking bearing. Howled when on the gas, but went quiet when coasting. I suspect it's a pinion bearing issue, possibly setup related or oiling related (yes, I put oil in the diff). Regardless, I'm pretty bummed right now. All the work I've put it trying to get the rig ready for the Thanksgiving Run seems like it just went down the drain.
I'll be giving my gear guy a call tomorrow to discuss what happened and hopefully find a solution. This sucks.
- Location
- NE Texas
This is looking more and more like a DD powered camp out :cheers:
Re: Re: The Nail Salon
Isn't there a white mj near you with the leaf pack you need, plus the new axles need to be swapped anyway? Ha ha
Isn't there a white mj near you with the leaf pack you need, plus the new axles need to be swapped anyway? Ha ha
Bronzewyrm
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Independence,or
I got one.
Had a good chat with Darrell today about the setup, and what could have happened. We both agreed that the bearings likely were starved for oil. As to why, that's the question.
Yarded out the 60 once again, and stripped it down so he can tear into it.
I would say the Nail Salon making the Thanksgiving Run is 50/50 at this point. I'm still going to keep plugging away on it in the meantime with hopes the 60 will be ready by Thursday.
Yarded out the 60 once again, and stripped it down so he can tear into it.
I would say the Nail Salon making the Thanksgiving Run is 50/50 at this point. I'm still going to keep plugging away on it in the meantime with hopes the 60 will be ready by Thursday.
ruger81
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Battle Ground WA
Dustin. One word of advise if Darrel doesn't already pack you full of it. Before you put it back in stand it on jack stands diff cover up and put a quart or so in it. Also high pinion rears are uber sensitive to pinion Angle. Ask him about switching to 85/140 instead of 85/90.
Demonoid369
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Salem, OR
X2 was just gonna say how far is the pinion sticking up, they dont have a oil slinger like transfer cases, you can starve the pinion of oil if its pointed to high, especially high pinions
All good things to consider. I've always ran 85W140 in my axles, but he did mention the viscosity effecting the bearings when cold. I'll have to get his .02 on that. I wasn't more than two miles out when the bearings started howling so I would imagine the oil was still cold (diff cover was).
When I filled the diff originally it was under the rig, so the pinion was rotated at about ~14 degrees. I put just over 2 quarts in the diff to get the level to the fill plug hole. Darrell thinks this should have been enough (D60 calls for 2.5qts), but I'm having second thoughts. I will definitely be filling it before it goes under the rig this next time. I'll run the thought of overfilling by him as well, maybe go with 3qts.
High pinion axles are a bit needy, but they're proven. Darrell ran a custom built HP44 in his Sami, and HP60 in his Datsun. Not to mention all the KOH rigs running High 9 rear ends. I like that my driveline is out of harms way. I think it'll be a great axle once we figure out this hiccup.
Pinion is at 14 degrees.
The ring gear itself is actually the slinger for the pinion bearings. There's an oil passage in the top of the diff that dumps oil directly on the bearings (I'll try and get a pic of it). When I drained the fluid, it had a coating of oil on it. In addition to the ring gear slinging oil, the pinion also has slingers that press on behind the bearings. These trap oil in the bearings preventing dry starts.
Darrell tore into my axle a bit today. I got a call from him this evening saying that the carrier bearings and ring gear looked perfect. The bearings didn't even have a break in pattern on them yet. Wasn't too surprised by this since they were brand new, and I didn't believe they were the issue. He said he broke his 1-5/16 socket trying to get the pinion nut off, so after he gets a new one tomorrow, we'll know the verdict on the pinion bearings.
I don't want to get ahead of myself, but it's looking good for getting the axle back by Thursday, assuming we don't need any odd ball parts.
I gathered some fittings and air line tonight to start plumbing the air lockers. Line is ran to the front and (imaginary) rear axles, just waiting on my valves to arrive so I can complete the in cab portion.
Not much left on the to-do list, other than install a rear axle.
Last edited:
Jbh97009
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Damascus, Oregon
Sounds like just a fluke thing....
Shit happens! Darrell will get ya fixed up, hopefully in time for the run!!!!!
Shit happens! Darrell will get ya fixed up, hopefully in time for the run!!!!!
knucklehead 61
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Cottage Grove, Oregon
pretty sure strange engineering sells a small oil pump for feeding pinion bearings.
might be worth looking into.
might be worth looking into.
It's been an incredibly stressful and busy last week, but it all paid off this weekend. 
Back tracking a bit... I got a call from Darrell on Tuesday saying the axle was done, and the verdict was in. It turns the pinion shims included in the original master install kit were the wrong ones. The ID was the correct size, but the OD was a tad bit larger. So when the shims were pressed on behind the lead pinion bearing there was enough extra material to block oil flow to the bearing.
Here's a pic I stole to help explain. Yoke, lead bearing, shims, inner bearing.
Lack of oil in the diff was not an issue. This was a relief for me to hear because I had myself convinced this was my fault. The ring gear slings oil onto the lead bearing with so much volume the excess oil then runs through a passage to the inner bearing. The inner bearing was in pristine shape, proving that it was receiving plenty of oil. Darrell said he would estimate the oil flow coming off the ring gear at speed to be somewhere around 40 psi! Pretty impressive to hear, so I'm now no longer worried about oil.
With the lead bearing oil starved by the shims it then slowly began to burn itself up. You can see the discoloration and grooving on the bearing race from all the heat.
This is the lead bearing that burned up. It got so hot that the pinion shims actually welded themselves to the bearing. Darrell had to chuck the pinion up on his lathe to cut them off, and then check for run out. Like Adam mentioned, the excessive heat build up can actually warp the pinion.
With the discovery about the shims made, he installed a new bearing with the correct shims. I've had Darrell set up six axles for me over the years, and this was the first one to have any sort of problem. I don't hold him accountable, even though he blames himself for not catching the shim size the first time, meh $hit happens.
I picked the axle up Wednesday evening, and had it installed in less than an hour. I made sure to put a little over 2.5 qts of 80W90 in while it was on jack stands. I think I'll be switching to synthetic after 500 miles. I drove the Jeep home later that evening for the first time on the new setup, and then prepared to leave for TSF the next day with a totally untested Jeep. Not a typical TORX thing to-do, so I really didn't know what to expect.
It was pretty wild to drive out to TSF, with no seat time on the new setup. The Jeep handles totally different than before. I just took the drive slow, listening for any odd noises. I was told rear diffs will actually run pretty close to engine temperatures (180-200 deg), and during break in they'll run even hotter. Keeping that in mind I stopped every 20 miles to do a quick bearing check. I got to camp around 8:30 with zero issues, and feeling more confident in the rig.
The new setup on the trail exceeded all of my expectations for it! I was grinning from ear to ear loving the new uptravel all around. I can't wait to get the new shocks on, and bump stops added to really test it out. The ARB's worked awesome, and took some getting use to. I now have so many options it's honestly confusing at times to pick the ideal combo. The Jeep was surprising very quiet on the trail. The steering was solid, the unibody was solid, the mounts were solid, it all seemed to work great.
All in all, I am thrilled with how the Jeep did for it's maiden voyage. Got a few things to dial in, but I'm confident it's only going to get better with each run.
Back tracking a bit... I got a call from Darrell on Tuesday saying the axle was done, and the verdict was in. It turns the pinion shims included in the original master install kit were the wrong ones. The ID was the correct size, but the OD was a tad bit larger. So when the shims were pressed on behind the lead pinion bearing there was enough extra material to block oil flow to the bearing.
Here's a pic I stole to help explain. Yoke, lead bearing, shims, inner bearing.
Lack of oil in the diff was not an issue. This was a relief for me to hear because I had myself convinced this was my fault. The ring gear slings oil onto the lead bearing with so much volume the excess oil then runs through a passage to the inner bearing. The inner bearing was in pristine shape, proving that it was receiving plenty of oil. Darrell said he would estimate the oil flow coming off the ring gear at speed to be somewhere around 40 psi! Pretty impressive to hear, so I'm now no longer worried about oil.
With the lead bearing oil starved by the shims it then slowly began to burn itself up. You can see the discoloration and grooving on the bearing race from all the heat.
This is the lead bearing that burned up. It got so hot that the pinion shims actually welded themselves to the bearing. Darrell had to chuck the pinion up on his lathe to cut them off, and then check for run out. Like Adam mentioned, the excessive heat build up can actually warp the pinion.
With the discovery about the shims made, he installed a new bearing with the correct shims. I've had Darrell set up six axles for me over the years, and this was the first one to have any sort of problem. I don't hold him accountable, even though he blames himself for not catching the shim size the first time, meh $hit happens.
I picked the axle up Wednesday evening, and had it installed in less than an hour. I made sure to put a little over 2.5 qts of 80W90 in while it was on jack stands. I think I'll be switching to synthetic after 500 miles. I drove the Jeep home later that evening for the first time on the new setup, and then prepared to leave for TSF the next day with a totally untested Jeep. Not a typical TORX thing to-do, so I really didn't know what to expect.
It was pretty wild to drive out to TSF, with no seat time on the new setup. The Jeep handles totally different than before. I just took the drive slow, listening for any odd noises. I was told rear diffs will actually run pretty close to engine temperatures (180-200 deg), and during break in they'll run even hotter. Keeping that in mind I stopped every 20 miles to do a quick bearing check. I got to camp around 8:30 with zero issues, and feeling more confident in the rig.
The new setup on the trail exceeded all of my expectations for it! I was grinning from ear to ear loving the new uptravel all around. I can't wait to get the new shocks on, and bump stops added to really test it out. The ARB's worked awesome, and took some getting use to. I now have so many options it's honestly confusing at times to pick the ideal combo. The Jeep was surprising very quiet on the trail. The steering was solid, the unibody was solid, the mounts were solid, it all seemed to work great.
All in all, I am thrilled with how the Jeep did for it's maiden voyage. Got a few things to dial in, but I'm confident it's only going to get better with each run.
Jbh97009
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Damascus, Oregon
The nail salon came out amazing Dustin! I really wish I could have seen it in action this weekend, but I'm sure I'll get to see it soon enough! I was really impressed with everything, steering, suspension/links, the whole thing. Its one thing to see it on here, but its a whole different beast in person!
Forgot to ask how things turned out with the axle, glad Darrell got it straightened out for you! He's done some work for me over the years, and (especially after dealing with 'mike') he's my go to guy, just hope he doesn't get too serious about retiring anytime too soon!
Forgot to ask how things turned out with the axle, glad Darrell got it straightened out for you! He's done some work for me over the years, and (especially after dealing with 'mike') he's my go to guy, just hope he doesn't get too serious about retiring anytime too soon!
I was rushing the week leading up to the Thanksgiving Run, and never got a chance to show how I plumbed the ARB's. Finally finished up the project so here it is.
When I initially got these axles, I was hesitant to run the ARB's. I've always ran full time lockers (Detroit's, Grizzly's, Aussies), mainly for their reliability. Pull the t-case lever and you have four tire fire.
However, selectable lockers intrigued me (I like options), so I began looking into how I could simplify them. One aspect was in the electric air solenoid used to engage the lockers. At $65 a pop for an ARB solenoid, I couldn't bring myself to buy two, and hope I never have an issue. I've seen my share of solenoid, compressor, and air line failures over the years.
I stumbled upon XJEEPER's build and found a slick solution he came up with to eliminate the electric solenoid, and run mechanical air valves instead.
I ordered up two Clippard MJTV-3 valves (AOP Technologies in Portland is a distributor). These feature an in, out, and exhaust port. ARB's traditionally run on 5mm air line, I wanted to get away from this and run the more common 1/4" air line. I picked up airline and some push-on fittings from MFCP/Parker in Vancouver.
My next issue was fittings for the axle and compressor sides. I swung by Northwest Tubes-N-Hoses in Vancouver for some help in identifying the threads I was working with, and to find a solution for what I needed. The CKMA12 compressor uses 1/8" BSPP (parallel) threads on the compressor. They had exactly what I needed, 1/8" BSPP to 1/4" push-on fitting. That made the connection at the compressor very simple.
The axles came with ARB's "Heavy Duty" air line kit off the axles. This features a protected airline for three feet off the axle. While it's a good idea, I wanted to simplify things and eliminate one more connection. This meant finding a fitting for the axle side. The bulkhead fitting is a 3/8-24 connection, with a -4AN male fitting off that. Once again Tube-N-Hoses hooked me up with a -4AN to 1/4" push-on fitting. I could now run 1/4" airline from the compressor to the switches, and out to the axles. The push-on fittings are stupidly simple, and should make any trail repairs easy. I'll be carrying a few feet of line and some splice connections too.
I kind of half-assed the install of the switches due to time constraints, but the lockers worked flawlessly all weekend. Plus the "pshhhh" sound is just cool.
I needed to tidy things up a bit, and finish off the switches once and for all. Found some scrap aluminum, and layed out my switch holes.
Complete. I was very happy to find all the air line fits under the center console, and I could still keep the cubby underneath. I eliminated a lot of line by using Y fittings for the supply air, and exhaust lines.
When I initially got these axles, I was hesitant to run the ARB's. I've always ran full time lockers (Detroit's, Grizzly's, Aussies), mainly for their reliability. Pull the t-case lever and you have four tire fire.
However, selectable lockers intrigued me (I like options), so I began looking into how I could simplify them. One aspect was in the electric air solenoid used to engage the lockers. At $65 a pop for an ARB solenoid, I couldn't bring myself to buy two, and hope I never have an issue. I've seen my share of solenoid, compressor, and air line failures over the years.
I stumbled upon XJEEPER's build and found a slick solution he came up with to eliminate the electric solenoid, and run mechanical air valves instead.
I ordered up two Clippard MJTV-3 valves (AOP Technologies in Portland is a distributor). These feature an in, out, and exhaust port. ARB's traditionally run on 5mm air line, I wanted to get away from this and run the more common 1/4" air line. I picked up airline and some push-on fittings from MFCP/Parker in Vancouver.
My next issue was fittings for the axle and compressor sides. I swung by Northwest Tubes-N-Hoses in Vancouver for some help in identifying the threads I was working with, and to find a solution for what I needed. The CKMA12 compressor uses 1/8" BSPP (parallel) threads on the compressor. They had exactly what I needed, 1/8" BSPP to 1/4" push-on fitting. That made the connection at the compressor very simple.
The axles came with ARB's "Heavy Duty" air line kit off the axles. This features a protected airline for three feet off the axle. While it's a good idea, I wanted to simplify things and eliminate one more connection. This meant finding a fitting for the axle side. The bulkhead fitting is a 3/8-24 connection, with a -4AN male fitting off that. Once again Tube-N-Hoses hooked me up with a -4AN to 1/4" push-on fitting. I could now run 1/4" airline from the compressor to the switches, and out to the axles. The push-on fittings are stupidly simple, and should make any trail repairs easy. I'll be carrying a few feet of line and some splice connections too.
I kind of half-assed the install of the switches due to time constraints, but the lockers worked flawlessly all weekend. Plus the "pshhhh" sound is just cool.
I needed to tidy things up a bit, and finish off the switches once and for all. Found some scrap aluminum, and layed out my switch holes.
Complete. I was very happy to find all the air line fits under the center console, and I could still keep the cubby underneath. I eliminated a lot of line by using Y fittings for the supply air, and exhaust lines.
ruger81
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Battle Ground WA
That's cool. I got those same air switches about a yr ago. I know now where I can to for the fittings. That place changed hands recently. Any chance you had before and after experience s?
Tube-N-Hoses?
First time using them, but Ben referred me to them for what it's worth.
Dude looked like he just got out of prison, but was totally cool and knew exactly what I was after. I have a feeling I'm going to need some longer brake lines with the new shocks, and will probably end up having them made there too.
ruger81
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Battle Ground WA
Tube-N-Hoses?
First time using them, but Ben referred me to them for what it's worth.
Dude looked like he just got out of prison, but was totally cool and knew exactly what I was after. I have a feeling I'm going to need some longer brake lines with the new shocks, and will probably end up having them made there too.
Sounds like the same guy. They made my adapters for my sanden pump. And we use them at work . but we haven't bought or used them since they called to say it was new owners.
- Location
- NE Texas
I'm seriously considering Yukon zip lockers..
I just fear air leaks over time, do you feel like your setup is going to be reliable and durable? I don't have any experience with air lockers other then watching failures.. But I love the idea of selectables
I just fear air leaks over time, do you feel like your setup is going to be reliable and durable? I don't have any experience with air lockers other then watching failures.. But I love the idea of selectables
