Stroker: Titan Engine: My Story

[corbinafly]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Well, even 200 is high. The point is that you shouldn't have to do a compression test if the motor was correctly designed...

But here's a thought I just had. I wonder what replacement head Titan sent me? Specifically, did they send an HO head or the older type? I don't know how to tell and the manifolds are on now so I can't look at the ports. But the head has marks...

I see "NH3" and "99" (or "66" if I'm looking at it wrong). Both these are under the rocker cover. Then along the edge outside the cover and on the maniforld side there is "0630". There's another number nearby but it isn't very well cast.


Any of these ring any bells as to which head it is?

0630 is the casting #. It was used from 96-98/99. It's a good head.

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

0630 is the casting #. It was used from 96-98/99. It's a good head.

Whew... at least something has gone right! Thanks!

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Here's the next installment of the story.

Titan agreed to ship new rocker arms for the head (recall they actually shipped 3 heads to manage to get one to me - and it came without rockers, the rockers on the head I had were the wrong ones.) for arrival my location last Friday. None arrived. Ok today is Wednesday and I've learned. Get the tracking number because that makes them evaluate what they've actually done.

In this case the rockers, like the heads, have gone to some wrong address somewhere. Again.

But they are trying. So they placed an order with Clevite for a new set and these, verified with Clevite by me just now, will ship today. Interesting comparison since Clevite in Dallas at 3:30 in the afternoon can receive an order, process it, pack, and it will be in FedEx by shipping time tonight. Compared to Titan...

Ok I guess this is the end. I'm promising myself no more Titan. If I can get the motor to work - great! If not it's coming outa there for a re-design. Guess I'll get a Jasper 4.0 to toss in while I work the stroker. Then swap back. Then sell the Jasper. That's the plan.

Mike

 

[tl1r]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

wow jasper is a great, great company you've got some money 2 lay out but there well worth every penny. I know that from 1rst hand experience as well, your heads going 2 spin from the difference in service between them and titan. Hope you don't have to go through all that but with my experience i'm not willing 2 bet $ on it

 

[oletshot]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Just read your story, and WOW! It seems to me Titan is willing to throw any piston, rod, cam, head gasket, and anything else I missed, combo together without calculating, well, anything. I don't know how their machining and assembly skills are but their engineering skills seem to need some work.

You asked about quench and I haven't seen an answer (might have missed it), so I'll try to explain it as I understand it. Quench is the distance between the top of the piston (not dished area) to the bottom flat surface of the head (top piston to deck + installed gasket thickness). The more quench you have, the more air movement or turbulence there is. This movement provides cooling in the cylinder, reduceing ping.

Bringing the quench to right distance (everyone seems to have an opinion on what the CORRECT quench # is) will raise your compression even more, unless your increase piston dish or cylinder head cc's. This is not necessarily a problem as, proper quench will allow higher compression ratio's to run with out pinging, at least to a point. I think everyone would agree that zero deck is best (.045 +/- depending on gasket) but may not be obtainable cheaply. If I were building my dream stroker (my opinions) I would use 4.2 crank, 4.0 rods or eagle rods, and custom pistons. These pistons would be machined for zero deck height and would have dish that would give me a static compression ratio that I wanted. Actually, I would pick out the cam I intended to run and calculate what my dynamic compresion ratio is. The cam (and I believe this is part of your problem) is able to "bleed off some of the air on the compression stroke by leaving the intake valve open longer, there by effectively lower the compression ratio. This is the engineering that TITAN seemed to forget to do. This engine would also sell for a bit more than you payed.

What Titan built was basically a budget or simple stroker. They took the 4.2 crank, 4.2 rods and aftermarket 4.0 pistons. If engineered properly this combination of parts will work (several examples of this have run tens of thousands of miles with no signs of stopping anytime soon). Just slapped together and it might not make it out of town.

So, onto your situation. I don't see an off-the-self piston with 11cc's dish, closest is silvolite 2229 at 12.2 cc's and a pin height of 1.581". This piston on 4.2 rods would put the piston top at .050" down in the bore, and the quench with the .043" gasket would be .093" (sound familiar?). Certainly not good quench, .020" worse than stock, and nowhere near the .043" of the dream stroker.

Static compression of the engine would be somewhere in the 9.8;1 range. I've heard with the stock cam the most compression you'd want to run is 9.2;1, anything more and you'll have pinging problems.

What I think you have is a a triple whammy of high compression, poor quench, and a cam the doesn't bleed off enough to lower dynamic compression. I understand you choose the cam, probably not knowing about all this. Had Titan done any calculations they would have noticed that this engine was going to be a "bear" to get to run without pinging. They could have done several things different to help your and their situation.

1. Deck the block some and get better quench (at least try for stock .073"). This alone wouldn't have fixed it but it's a start (again an opinion). I would have thought some decking would be a given just to make sure block is flat.

2. Machine the dish of the 2229 pistons to lower compression to 9.2:1 or lower. A common practice in jeep stroker builds. I'm sure Silvolite wouldn't honor any piston failures after this, though.

3. Choose a different piston. Sealed Power 677p's have a 17.5cc dish. This would have lowered static compression ratio to about 9.4:1 with .043" gasket or 9.25:1 with .051" gasket.

4. They should have let you know the stock cam was a poor choice in the stroker that they were going to build for you.

For them to say all you need is 24lb injectors and you'll be fine was also unwise with this build.
I feel you also made a mistake by continuing to drive after noticing the pinging. I would
have been on the horn ASAP after first sign of pinging. "Why is my engine pinging, I did what you told me and it still pings. What should I do next?" ( hind sight really is 20/20).

I've heard getting a build sheet from Titan is like pulling teeth. I think they have a secret that they don't want anyone to know about, they are lost. I think they have no idea of what their building (it all bolts together, it should run, right?), and judging by your replacement head experience their clerical skills aren't to good either.

Maybe the people with good running Titans got lucky and the right combo of parts got put together.
Maybe your specifying the stock cam screwed them up. If that's the cause though, you'd think someone over there should be able to crunch the numbers and say "Hey, if we use the stock cam in this build we're going to have problems."

It's also a possibility I'm talking out of my butt again. I have never meet these people or seen any examples of their work first hand, BUT UNFORTUNATLY FOR YOU, YOU HAVE!
Quench experts, did I explain it correctly?

HOPE THIS HELPS!

 

[oletshot]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Another question I noticed you asked and I didn't see an answer to was about timing. ECU controls timing thru input from CPS, AFAIK. Rotating the distributor will/may screw up fuel sync. First you'll have to cut off the ears, since your using the stock cam you probably haven't cut those off yet.
I guess Titan didn't realize this either as according to tl1r's 2006 post about his Titan, they told him 24lb injectors and retard timing and his 4.6 would run fine (see titan 4.6L PINGING below). The more I read the better (WORSE) it gets with these guys.
There is a current thread on jeepstrokers.com in the stroker tech subforum about pinging Titans. Maybe you could pick up some other tips in that thread. GOOD LUCK!

 

[tl1r]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

well i had called titan like once a week minimum for the first 2-3 months, they'd say well if you did that and that then try this. clear your pcm, install IAT signal box, install colder t-stat, cut the ears of distrib, do a compression test, you should try a 62mm throttle body we happen to sell 1, (like i'd buy anything else from them)and on and on it went until chuck had no more than uhhh. then when i told him i had done some things reccomended here he was like can you build more adjustable map sensors for us!! that was the confirmation i wasn't 1 of 2 guys having these problems. On a recent note i only know 1 guy with a golen and after talking with him i was glad i hadn't spent the extra $$ he has all the same problems i've been through. But thats only 1 guy so don't take that any further than that.

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Here's the next addition of the story:

Mentioned above I installed the replacement ($300) head sent by Titan. But the rocker arm bolts were incorrect and I couldn't swap from the cracked head. Ok I just thought head was a different year. Called Chuck, who -eventually- had Clevite send new rockers (see above). I expected no bolts so I ordered these from the Jeep dealer. My head casting number is '0630' which mentioned above came from a '96. All arrived today.

Well all are the same as I already have! Questioned the Jeep dealer concerning the bolts. Same part numbers for '92, '96, '99. So I guess I'm wrong about different years having different rockers. The new Clevites, which I checked with Clevite are for a '96, are designed the same as the ones on the old (cracked) head.

The old (cracked) head has 12 lands which receive 5/16-18 bolts. These lands are about 0.84" below the top of the valve spring.

The new head has the same 12 lands but these receive 7/16-14 bolts. And these lands are bout 1.1" below the top of the valve spring.

So... help!... anyone know an explanation for the bolt difference? My only guess is that this reconditioned head must have been specially modified by the prior owner to fit a different rocker arrangement, maybe a roller rocker or something. Since Titan never assembled it they didn't notice.

I can't simply modify the rocker arms by drilling them out. Reason #1 is that the lands are at different heights, and reason #2 is that I would drill away nearly all the little barrel beneath the rocker pivot.

I know I've sworn off Titan, but unless anyone can suggest how to get rockers onto this head I'm going to have to take it off and send it back. And wait forever, again, for a replacement. This will be my second head removal. And there's no guarantee that when, if ever, I install a operational head the engine will actually run correctly.

I wanted to camp this weekend....
I want my money back...

Anyone think either of these will happen any time soon?

I've joined tl1r: I HATE MY TITAN. Please somebody help me wake up from this bad dream...!

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Another question I noticed you asked and I didn't see an answer to was about timing. ECU controls timing thru input from CPS, AFAIK. Rotating the distributor will/may screw up fuel sync. First you'll have to cut off the ears, since your using the stock cam you probably haven't cut those off yet.
I guess Titan didn't realize this either as according to tl1r's 2006 post about his Titan, they told him 24lb injectors and retard timing and his 4.6 would run fine (see titan 4.6L PINGING below). The more I read the better (WORSE) it gets with these guys.
There is a current thread on jeepstrokers.com in the stroker tech subforum about pinging Titans. Maybe you could pick up some other tips in that thread. GOOD LUCK!

You are correct (in the first post) about running with a ping. Yeah, 20/20 hindsight. Thanks for a really good description of quench.

Titan also told me that 1) engine would run on 87 octane, 2) engine would not run hot, 3) engine would pass California smog. All I had to do was put in 24# injectors which I did.


Here's Titan's build of my engine, obtained from statements by Chuck and by measurements:

Crank: 4.2 Liter with 3.895" stroke
Rod: 4.2 liter having length of 5.875"
Pistion pin height 1.581"
Piston dish: 13 cc
Bore: 0.060" diameter over to give 3.935"
Head volume 57 to 58 cc
Gasket: 0.044
Block decking: just what is required to clean it up
Head plaining: just what is required to clean it up
Cam: Clevite 229-2174, they call it MPG intale/ex lift 0.280, (bunch of other specs I don't understand...)


Chuck said sometimes they use a piston with pin height of 1.592.
I measured head volume and go 56 cc
Measured piston top below deck and got 0.050"
Measured piston dish at 11 cc but couldn't do a really accurate job due to engine slope.

I don't want to hunt for a band-aid for Titan's crummy engine design. Visited Jeepstrokers.com

http://www.jeepstrokers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=49

Thanks for reference. Not a lot of hard numbers there.

I think my plan now is to

order a Jasper stock rebuild tomorrow,
toss it in so I can drive around,
get Titan to replace the head with one for which I can get rocker arms, salvage what I can from the Titan.
Have Titan block decked to obtain correct quench
Swap in different pistons having larger dish (milling sounds sketchy).

Think I'll try for a 0.074" quench (same as stock) with a lower 9's compression. I don't need a fireball engine. Any suggestions for pistons? Dare I go to lower quench number? Should I?

Thanks!

By the way... It is my opinion that cutting off the distrib 'ears' only allows the distrib to be rotated such that the rotor is in the 5 o'clock position at #1 TDC. Basic ignition timing comes from CPS on the flywheel. Unfortunately the flywheel goes around twice for each 4 strokes so there needs to be a way for the ECU to determine which of these two revolutions is occuring when the CPS signal is received. The sensor in the distributer gives this information. But nothing more. Rotation of the distributer in the few degrees range doesn't change timing save that you can goof up the spark path from rotor to cap. Anyway it isn't like back in the day where you could advance or retard timing a few degrees. All computed these days.

 

[tl1r]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Well I hope your situation is going somewhere. I wanted to let u know my 2nd engine is so far surprisingly cooperating! Another 1200 miles on it(now that i said that it'll blow this week) I have gone from the setup that worked on the old motor and started backwards engineering now. At this point i'm back on original plugs and i can leave my map adjuster off under most conditions except heavier then normal highway accelerating. ( i have the map switch installed on my dash board) So at this point whats not stock in the loop is a cold air intake, 180 degree t-stat, and 93 octane. Being that i can still get the ping on the highway i'm not sure which to remove next between the t-stat and trying 89 octane. I also picked up a 00 intake so that may be installed first haven't decided yet. Anyway i in no way would reccomend a titan to any1 :soapbox: but maybe you've got some hope. Goodluck

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Well I hope your situation is going somewhere. I wanted to let u know my 2nd engine is so far surprisingly cooperating! Another 1200 miles on it(now that i said that it'll blow this week) I have gone from the setup that worked on the old motor and started backwards engineering now. At this point i'm back on original plugs and i can leave my map adjuster off under most conditions except heavier then normal highway accelerating. ( i have the map switch installed on my dash board) So at this point whats not stock in the loop is a cold air intake, 180 degree t-stat, and 93 octane. Being that i can still get the ping on the highway i'm not sure which to remove next between the t-stat and trying 89 octane. I also picked up a 00 intake so that may be installed first haven't decided yet. Anyway i in no way would reccomend a titan to any1 :soapbox: but maybe you've got some hope. Goodluck

Well... my engine is going NOWHERE. Recall I purchased a new head from Titan back in the SECOND WEEK OF JANUARY and after three shipping attempts a head arrived. But this head had no rockers and the bolt lands for the rockers had been machined off and threaded for a larger bolt. Turns out they shipped a head set up for roller rockers -or so chuck says-. Three weeks ago Chuck supposedly made two shippments, one from Titan containing the studs, and one from a supplier containing the roller rockers. I'm paying 1/2 of it all of course. But it's been three weeks and nothing has arrived. I've been out of town. So I've been trying to get Titan to send a completely operational head for, what, 10 weeks now and they still haven't done it. And when the new parts show up, if ever, there is still no guarantee that they will work with the head, or that the engine will work once the head works.

I'm curious: what did Titan do to correct your engine? I remember you shipped one back. Any idea why the new one seems to be working when the original did not?

Mike

 

[tl1r]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Mike i unfortunately don't know what they changed! I never opened up the engine in fear of losing the warranty. I know i recieved the original head back but it looked to me as they sent me a newly rebuilt bottom end. I'd like to say they put there best guy on the job who got the quench perfect but i tried 89 octane this weekend and it pings over anything but grandma style driving. With my experience i'd say see if they'll pick your engine up and rebuild it again under warranty and definitly talk to frank and let him know about all the shipping and parts problems as well as the original running experience. Plain and simple no one should have this many problems and if that doesn't work i've had alot of success with calling the better business bureau and making a report after all else fails. Takes about 2 weeks for results and only 15 minutes on the phone once you get the right BBB #

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

17-APR.

Well, Titan stroker continues to go NOWHERE. Somewhere about 20-MAR I was told that the roller rockers (now reqired to patch up the wrong head mistake Titan made literally months ago) were shipped. I waited a couple of weeks. No parts. "Oh, those parts got backordered". So Titan ordered from another supplier early last week. I was told these also shipped, by US Post. It's Thursday and parts should be here. But arent'. Now I'm told they were actually shipped later than I was told previously.

My Jeep sits in the gaurage with the hood up. Just like it has for the last three months waiting for the head to get straightened out by Titan.

My time is running out. I need to drive the Jeep soon. I guess that I must plan to swap in a Jasper Apr 25, 26, 27 if I don't have parts before then. It's my last weekend. Even if the parts arrive I'm just not sure about driving this engine out to Utah. Guess I'll have to chance it.

Does my story make you want a Titan yet?

Mike

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

24-APR-2008

Well you can see I was very frustrated last post. But Chuck at Titan must have finally understood that time is my main problem. Anyway a set of nice roller rockers arrived via FedEx Friday. I missed them and lost last weekend but the good news is that it all goes together this weekend. I expect to start up the engine on Saturday.

I guess soon I'll face the dreaded ping problem - if I'm lucky

Stay tuned...

 

[Gojeep]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

Fingers crossed.

 

[mhead]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

26-APR-2008

Thanks for the crossed fingers Marcus. Looks like I'm going to need more than that.

Installed roller rockers. Took all day since these didn't fit under the rocker cover. Had to mill out on two sides of both cover vents to clear the roller adjusters. Also the front slope of the cover hits the first rocker adjuster. Had to turn this adjuster down 0.125". Lucky I have a few tools.

Here's the engine condition: 1992 XJ, I-6 4.0 bored to 4.6 by Titan. Crank swapped and different rods. Pinged and bent two valves. Since the valve bend: Swapped a new head from Titan on. Installed roller rockers. Also swapped the factory grind cam that Titan installed at my request for a "MPG" cam from Clevite. I was REALLY careful to get the MPG cam at the correct phase with the crank. I'm 100% confident of this. New hydraluic lifters installed. Installed manifold from '2000 so there's a different manifold on. New power steering pump and brackets.

I adjusted the roller rockers with the lifters dry but was careful just to take mechanical lash from the system without compressing hydraulic lifter springs. Spun oil pump with a drill motor for 10 minutes giving 55 PSI indication on dash oil pressure gauge. So engine had 10 minutes at full oil pressure. Rechecked cylinder #1 roller rocker adjustment now that the lifter is completely pumped. Adjustment checks out perfect.

Installed distrib at correct phase. Cap tower 1 contact is just about the middle of the rotor contact at #1TDC. Didn't have to cut the distrib 'ears' it just went in there perfect. Rotated motor while watching #1 intake/exhast rockers and watching distrib. See expected pattern of valve actuation except it is hard to tell exact distributer angles and exact valve open/closing but things seem ok.

Fuel rail pressure 39 PSI as expected of the stock regulator. Carefully inspected intake manifold to be sure all ports or holes have something plugging them or something routed to them.

But it doesn't start. I managed a 'pop' once or twice but mostlly it is just like a no-spark. It just cranks. I see a nice hot spark at #1 plug at about the same time as my compression gauge shows the #1 pulse so I think the engine is getting spark. Pouring a tablespoon of gas down the throttlebody and wide open throttle on crank doesn't give the expected live sounds like backfires or bangs.

If I put my hand over the throttle body and crank there is suction so there's at least no gigantic intake manifold leak. It doesn't suck as much as I might expect but I don't have a really good idea what to expect I guess.

So I'm at the end of my experience. Normally if there's a spark, plugs aren't fouled, and there's liquid gas in the intake manifold (it's about 75 deg F here in San Diego today) there will be a bang. But there's no bang. This engine ran until the day I removed the head, cam, intake manifold so there's no reason to suspect injectors, fuel pump, spark coil, other electrical.

Anyone have a wild idea? I'm just out of things to try. Guess I'll do a complete compression test. Won't be correct since the engine will be cold but maybe some weird thing will appear. Any other ideas?

Thanks!

 

[corbinafly]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

26-APR-2008

Thanks for the crossed fingers Marcus. Looks like I'm going to need more than that.

Installed roller rockers. Took all day since these didn't fit under the rocker cover. Had to mill out on two sides of both cover vents to clear the roller adjusters. Also the front slope of the cover hits the first rocker adjuster. Had to turn this adjuster down 0.125". Lucky I have a few tools.

Here's the engine condition: 1992 XJ, I-6 4.0 bored to 4.6 by Titan. Crank swapped and different rods. Pinged and bent two valves. Since the valve bend: Swapped a new head from Titan on. Installed roller rockers. Also swapped the factory grind cam that Titan installed at my request for a "MPG" cam from Clevite. I was REALLY careful to get the MPG cam at the correct phase with the crank. I'm 100% confident of this. New hydraluic lifters installed. Installed manifold from '2000 so there's a different manifold on. New power steering pump and brackets.

I adjusted the roller rockers with the lifters dry but was careful just to take mechanical lash from the system without compressing hydraulic lifter springs. Spun oil pump with a drill motor for 10 minutes giving 55 PSI indication on dash oil pressure gauge. So engine had 10 minutes at full oil pressure. Rechecked cylinder #1 roller rocker adjustment now that the lifter is completely pumped. Adjustment checks out perfect.

Installed distrib at correct phase. Cap tower 1 contact is just about the middle of the rotor contact at #1TDC. Didn't have to cut the distrib 'ears' it just went in there perfect. Rotated motor while watching #1 intake/exhast rockers and watching distrib. See expected pattern of valve actuation except it is hard to tell exact distributer angles and exact valve open/closing but things seem ok.

Fuel rail pressure 39 PSI as expected of the stock regulator. Carefully inspected intake manifold to be sure all ports or holes have something plugging them or something routed to them.

But it doesn't start. I managed a 'pop' once or twice but mostlly it is just like a no-spark. It just cranks. I see a nice hot spark at #1 plug at about the same time as my compression gauge shows the #1 pulse so I think the engine is getting spark. Pouring a tablespoon of gas down the throttlebody and wide open throttle on crank doesn't give the expected live sounds like backfires or bangs.

If I put my hand over the throttle body and crank there is suction so there's at least no gigantic intake manifold leak. It doesn't suck as much as I might expect but I don't have a really good idea what to expect I guess.

So I'm at the end of my experience. Normally if there's a spark, plugs aren't fouled, and there's liquid gas in the intake manifold (it's about 75 deg F here in San Diego today) there will be a bang. But there's no bang. This engine ran until the day I removed the head, cam, intake manifold so there's no reason to suspect injectors, fuel pump, spark coil, other electrical.

Anyone have a wild idea? I'm just out of things to try. Guess I'll do a complete compression test. Won't be correct since the engine will be cold but maybe some weird thing will appear. Any other ideas?

Thanks!

Lifter springs are supposed to be compressed a little (can't remember how much; something like .040-.050") when the lifter preload is set correctly.
And the rotor should be just past the #1 cap terminal at TDC.
Let us know what your compression #s are. Maybe you're cam is not degreed correctly???

 

[slipslap]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

What a nice long read. All I found out is after 7 pages i that Titan sux. And if you want more power why would you put a stock cam in a bored out stroked engine? You got bigger pistons, bigger combustion chamber, longer stroke and then you suck in the same amount of air and fuel then shoot out the same amount thru the exhuast that your ol 4.0 did. I just don't understand the logic behind that. To make more power, you need more fuel and air. Your cam opens your valves up a certain amount to let that air/fuel in. If they don't open any farther then a stock engine does, how are you gonna make more power? Call me stupid, but I don't see why a stock cam would be used on this engine.

I went to their website and they don't list any numbers on HP or TQ for their stroker engine. Why is that? All I know is for how much money you have spent so far, you could have swapped in a small block chevy, TH400 or 4L80E with your NP231 and probably had money left over. And much more street friendly on pump gas.

 

[xj2win]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

I'd first check for spark in the other plugs to make sure there isn't a #1 spark by fluke. Check for injector pulse. Pull the #1 and turn over the engine with the plug grounded and make sure that it's sparking in the middle of the compression stroke, feel for the air coming out of the cylinder.

 

[housemaster0630]

Re: Stoker: Titan Engine: My Story

for a stroked 4.0l you need to have 24lb fuel injectors or it will run lean

that might have been your overheating problem