Strange Silence

420 started the thread to push the anti-religion propaganda that the Progressive media is spouting. When confronted with facts, you immediately whipped up some strawmen to avoid providing facts to back up your implied claim that the killers association with Christianity led him to perpetrate these evil acts.

You attempt to use his words to support your claims, when his actions contradict the ideals of Christianity. He clearly stated in his manifesto that “As for the Church and science, it is essential that science takes an undisputed precedence over biblical teachings.”

He also states that Regarding my personal relationship with God, I guess I’m not an excessively religious man. I am first and foremost a man of logic.” of which you chose to ignore, as it disproves your claims.

I submit that while you chose to not practice religion, you do follow religion, and like many "athiest", look for any opportunity to poke fun at, demonize or minimalize it, which somehow makes you feel better about yourself.

:thumbup:


Yet I bet you believe that OBL was a muslim.
Face it XJeeper, this guy acted on behalf of christianity as sick as that is.
The statements you keep picking out of his manifesto are pretty weak in supporting your argument.
But you are correct in the fact I like to antagonize believers.
I just can't wrap my mind around how so many people can be so gullible.
 
Why do you only include the NT as the basis for how you should live? If you just want to disregard a whole testament, why is it even in the bible? I would say that I, and most other Christians would agree that Christ would not teach this, but the OT God most definitely would... :peace:

I come across that way by deferring to how Christ addressed the subject, when referring to what we have in the OT as "the law and the prophets" in the NT.

Hopefully, now with the added context, and being a Christian yourself, my position has become somewhat more clear to you... I appreciate your civil tone... :thumbup:
 
Yet I bet you believe that OBL was a muslim.
Face it XJeeper, this guy acted on behalf of christianity as sick as that is.
The statements you keep picking out of his manifesto are pretty weak in supporting your argument.
But you are correct in the fact I like to antagonize believers.
I just can't wrap my mind around how so many people can be so gullible.

Ironic, you quoted from his manifesto to support your claim that he is a Christian, when his actions prove otherwise, yet when I quote from his manifesto to support the fact that the killer follows science and logic over Christ and The Bible, you want to toss it aside.

:laugh2:
 
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I come across that way by deferring to how Christ addressed the subject, when referring to what we have in the OT as "the law and the prophets" in the NT.

Hopefully, now with the added context, and being a Christian yourself, my position has become somewhat more clear to you... I appreciate your civil tone... :thumbup:

It is more clear now, I suppose the point that I was attempting to make is as follows...

Both the Bible and Koran, and many other religious texts I would bet, contain passages that may seem extreme by many. There are passages in both the Bible and the Koran that pretty much tell you to kill all non-believers. However, as I, and nearly every other Christian or Muslim, think this might not be the best of ideas. So we choose not to follow these particular passages. (You can say it is irrelevant, or mistranslated or what have you, but essentially it is the same)

Does this make me less devoted or religious? I am not sure. But I will tell you that I can not possibly imagine killing another human being or committing other acts of violence in the name of my religion. And I would bet that 99.9% of the world feels the same, regardless of faith.
 
It is more clear now, I suppose the point that I was attempting to make is as follows...

Both the Bible and Koran, and many other religious texts I would bet, contain passages that may seem extreme by many. There are passages in both the Bible and the Koran that pretty much tell you to kill all non-believers. However, as I, and nearly every other Christian or Muslim, think this might not be the best of ideas. So we choose not to follow these particular passages. (You can say it is irrelevant, or mistranslated or what have you, but essentially it is the same)

Does this make me less devoted or religious? I am not sure. But I will tell you that I can not possibly imagine killing another human being or committing other acts of violence in the name of my religion. And I would bet that 99.9% of the world feels the same, regardless of faith.
The thing with Old Testament mentions of killing the wicked is that as Christians, we operate under a completely different system. Christ has fulfilled the law of the OT, all it does now is point out our need for redemption. The point of the law was that no man could live up to it, hence the need for sacrifice under the old covenant, and why Jesus was the sacrifice to open the new covenant. The Jews were sent in to take over a land and were instructed to kill all of the previous inhabitants so they wouldn't corrupt the Jews in their worship. They weren't just killing people for the hell of it. But again, that system is no more.

As far as Islam, I don't know the intricacies of their beliefs as far as whether the calling to the lesser Jihad (ie the one that calls for them to physically fight the infidels) or if the call to kill all non-believers is still relevant. I can say that Muhammad himself spread Islam by force and they are told to follow the example of Muhammad.
 
Also wondering, were the targets this guy bombed and then shot up Muslim targets? I didn't get the idea that they were Muslim targets. If not, how exactly does claiming to be continuing the Crusades make any sense?
 
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Because I think that if their was no religion, there would be no anti religion, like atheism.
Kinda like if there is no god, there is no devil.

No-one knows if there is a god, or not, not even atheists. It is a belief. Or lack thereof. Same thing with religion. Religious beliefs do not insure that there is a god.
I think most believers in god do so because they are afraid not to. Letting their irrational fear of death/unknown drive their thinking pattern.
Lights out when you die is just not a concept believers can wrap their minds around. I have no problem with it.
Hey, if death was the end, life would be easier. Do whatever you want, there are no consequences, right? Sure you have to live with any STDs, or consequences here, but once you die it's done. However, when I looked at things in this world and things in me, and I weighed the different ideas for how it all happened and where it all came from, one option clearly stood out. As of yet, no one has presented any ideas or evidence to convince me otherwise.

Atheism is not anti-religion. Atheism is anti-God. it's right there in the name. Theism means the belief in a god or gods. When you add the "a" to the front, it becomes anti.
 
The thing with Old Testament mentions of killing the wicked is that as Christians, we operate under a completely different system. Christ has fulfilled the law of the OT, all it does now is point out our need for redemption. The point of the law was that no man could live up to it, hence the need for sacrifice under the old covenant, and why Jesus was the sacrifice to open the new covenant. The Jews were sent in to take over a land and were instructed to kill all of the previous inhabitants so they wouldn't corrupt the Jews in their worship. They weren't just killing people for the hell of it. But again, that system is no more.

This is very true, but I would like you to consider two things:

1. Some people still manage to cram those beliefs into their thought process. Consider WBBC, they hate gay/lesbian people, even though the NT has very little to say about that topic.
As you seem to agree, the laws and codes of the OT are mostly irrelevant, but people still use them to promote their agenda.

2. What about the modern day Jews? Since they do not believe in Christ, shouldnt they still be bound by the laws and codes of the OT? Yet when you think "Jewish", do you associate that with warrior crusaders?

I can say that Moses himself spread Judaism by force and they are told to follow the example of Moses.

Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Romans 1:24-32

Jeremiah 48:10

Why arent the Jews going around killing everybody?? It says to do so right there!

(Side note: I am assuming that the Torah is a direct copy of the OT, and to the best of my knowledge it is. So if the names/ numbers don't line up, that is why.)
 
I have never understood the athiest mindset in that they feel the need to attack religion at every turn. What is the point? Do you need the attention? Do you feel that attempting to destroy someone elses beliefs somehow makes you a better person?

At least if a christian/jew/muslim tries to talk to me about religion, they are almost always trying to educate me and bring me to salvation for my sake. But where is the altruistic motivation for an evangelical athiest to convert me. Most of you just come off as someone with a lot of pent up anger and hate. Relax, chill out.
 
Maybe it is because of religious hypocrisy that I ridicule believers. Like this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...news-norway-religious-hypocrisy_n_911801.html

This time it just happens to be fox (news?):laugh2:
But , I am an equal opportunity hater. All religion is an adult fairy tale. Cute story, high morals, but not real. Religion is truly the opiate of the masses. A control device, used quite successfully. Just like santa claus brings good little boys and girls toys, god bring all believers into his protective fold upon death, but only if you pass the life test. Fail, and burn forever in the lake of fire.
Using fear to control. It is the oldest trick in the book, and I'm not falling for it. If that makes me a dick, so be it.

I think:
Man created god out of fear and ignorance.
Religion is the scoundrels refuge.
I could go on and on, but you get the idea..........

I will try in the future to contain my exuberance for ridiculing believers, but I'm really gonna hafta bite my tongue.
 
Just when I think you couldn't be any more ignorant, you post something like this and acheive a whole other level.
 
This is very true, but I would like you to consider two things:

1. Some people still manage to cram those beliefs into their thought process. Consider WBBC, they hate gay/lesbian people, even though the NT has very little to say about that topic.
As you seem to agree, the laws and codes of the OT are mostly irrelevant, but people still use them to promote their agenda.

2. What about the modern day Jews? Since they do not believe in Christ, shouldnt they still be bound by the laws and codes of the OT? Yet when you think "Jewish", do you associate that with warrior crusaders?



Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Romans 1:24-32

Jeremiah 48:10

Why arent the Jews going around killing everybody?? It says to do so right there!

(Side note: I am assuming that the Torah is a direct copy of the OT, and to the best of my knowledge it is. So if the names/ numbers don't line up, that is why.)
The Jews also have the Mishnah and another book which name escapes me at the moment. Not having read them, I can't say what exactly the changes are. But think about it for a second: the old testament Jews weren't endlessly expanding, seeking to bring the whole world under Judaism. They were given a specific piece of land to call their own. They fought to get it. Their belief is that they are the chosen people. That means that there was no point in trying to convert others. If you were chosen, you'd figure it out and convert. In 1948, when they were given the land they now live in, they had already built a 30,000 man army, before even being a nation, simply for the purpose of protecting Jews and their interests in the region. When they became a nation again, they were attacked by a coalition of other nations, who couldn't even put together an army as big as the Jews had. They of course quickly fought off the attack and remained in their land. They've had to fight 2-3 wars since to regain land that falls under the promised land. Today, they still possess a powerful army that has been put to use numerous times to defend attacks, free captives, and defend Jewish interests in the region.

So, yeah, the stereotypical Jew like Jerry Seinfeld, Mel Brooks, etc, may not strike us as tough guy warrior types, but not all Jews were of the warrior set back in OT days. But when you look at Israel, they only exist today because of a strong warrior class. They fought to regain and keep control of their land, they don't seek to expand. They may still be living under the OT law (which I think they might be, just expanded with a whole set of extra laws detailing the minutiae of daily life), but that wouldn't lead to constant war and killing unbelievers.

The New Testament does still proclaim homosexuality to be a sin, however, unlike the whack jobs at WBC, nowhere does it say the gays are automatically hell bound, any more so at least than the man who commits adultery, steals a loaf of bread, or lusts after a beautiful woman would be. Look in your quote from Romans. It says pretty specifically that the men burning with lust for each was not the right way and they were given over to their reprobate minds to receive the recompense for their error. It's not uncommon for God to try to point out someone's sin and show them the right way, only to have them ignore him. In these cases, He tends to say, alright, figure it out on your own! Look at Pharaoh in Exodus, God sent plague after plague to convince him of His power, yet Pharaoh ignored it, and God hardened his heart.

I've said it before that every group has whack jobs. WBC is ours. Considering their choice of venues for making their stand, I almost wish we had mad bombers instead. Disrespecting our soldiers, sailors and Marines at their funerals is despicable. In the Koran there are numerous passages calling for war against the infidels, fighting the enemies of Allah, killing those who won't convert. But like I said, are those passages still relevant to the beliefs and practices of "true" Islam today? I don't necessarily mean the commonly practiced form either. Today, it's fairly common that people use the Bible to hate gays just as it's gotten fairly common to ignore the Bible on gays and say there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and allowing gays to be in leadership positions. Mysticism has become more commonplace as well, as has the whole idea that it's perfectly fine and normal to sit at home and watch "church" on TV without having to actually go anywhere or be with other believers. However, these things don't represent what the Bible says and can't be considered "true" Christianity.
 
The Jews also have the Mishnah and another book which name escapes me at the moment. Not having read them, I can't say what exactly the changes are. But think about it for a second: the old testament Jews weren't endlessly expanding, seeking to bring the whole world under Judaism. They were given a specific piece of land to call their own. They fought to get it. Their belief is that they are the chosen people. That means that there was no point in trying to convert others. If you were chosen, you'd figure it out and convert. In 1948, when they were given the land they now live in, they had already built a 30,000 man army, before even being a nation, simply for the purpose of protecting Jews and their interests in the region. When they became a nation again, they were attacked by a coalition of other nations, who couldn't even put together an army as big as the Jews had. They of course quickly fought off the attack and remained in their land. They've had to fight 2-3 wars since to regain land that falls under the promised land. Today, they still possess a powerful army that has been put to use numerous times to defend attacks, free captives, and defend Jewish interests in the region.

So, yeah, the stereotypical Jew like Jerry Seinfeld, Mel Brooks, etc, may not strike us as tough guy warrior types, but not all Jews were of the warrior set back in OT days. But when you look at Israel, they only exist today because of a strong warrior class. They fought to regain and keep control of their land, they don't seek to expand. They may still be living under the OT law (which I think they might be, just expanded with a whole set of extra laws detailing the minutiae of daily life), but that wouldn't lead to constant war and killing unbelievers.

The New Testament does still proclaim homosexuality to be a sin, however, unlike the whack jobs at WBC, nowhere does it say the gays are automatically hell bound, any more so at least than the man who commits adultery, steals a loaf of bread, or lusts after a beautiful woman would be. Look in your quote from Romans. It says pretty specifically that the men burning with lust for each was not the right way and they were given over to their reprobate minds to receive the recompense for their error. It's not uncommon for God to try to point out someone's sin and show them the right way, only to have them ignore him. In these cases, He tends to say, alright, figure it out on your own! Look at Pharaoh in Exodus, God sent plague after plague to convince him of His power, yet Pharaoh ignored it, and God hardened his heart.

I've said it before that every group has whack jobs. WBC is ours. Considering their choice of venues for making their stand, I almost wish we had mad bombers instead. Disrespecting our soldiers, sailors and Marines at their funerals is despicable. In the Koran there are numerous passages calling for war against the infidels, fighting the enemies of Allah, killing those who won't convert. But like I said, are those passages still relevant to the beliefs and practices of "true" Islam today? I don't necessarily mean the commonly practiced form either. Today, it's fairly common that people use the Bible to hate gays just as it's gotten fairly common to ignore the Bible on gays and say there's absolutely nothing wrong with them and allowing gays to be in leadership positions. Mysticism has become more commonplace as well, as has the whole idea that it's perfectly fine and normal to sit at home and watch "church" on TV without having to actually go anywhere or be with other believers. However, these things don't represent what the Bible says and can't be considered "true" Christianity.

Well stated, Darky. For CherBear,(referring to the other thread) many of the points here regarding the Jews and violence are what I was trying to get you to grasp on your own by reading the book of Deuteronomy. Sorry I dropped off and failed to readdress it....spent some time on vacation and didn't pick it back up.
 
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Well stated, Darky. For CherBear,(referring to the other thread) many of the points here regarding the Jews and violence are what I was trying to get you to grasp on your own by reading the book of Deuteronomy. Sorry I dropped off and failed to readdress it....spent some time on vacation and didn't pick it back up.

Ahhh, no worries. That does explain a lot though. Very informative post Darky. :thumbup:
 
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