M.O.R.E. plagarism
- Thread starter bgcntry72
- Start date
- Location
- Desert Beach So Cal
dmillion said:
Yes, but sometimes the result is justified (and sometimes you have to take a closer look).
The practice of copying and improving upon another's product is very common, and the "improvement" can be in the form of a lower price as well as a difference in construction. Unless the design is protected by copyright (and even a copyright has limitations) then the design is open for cloning.
I may not respect a clone with zero improvement other than price, but there is a difference that fits the needs of most buyers (the lower price).
In this case (as I read the topic), BPI can offer improved features and benefits that justify the difference in price, or they can improve the manufacturing economics and improve on the price (or both). BPI can offer a superior product, and beat M.O.R.E. (and the quality service you report is a buyers consideration).
This is the nature of competition, and this competition is good for the off-road and XJ world of accessories. If everyone who had a cloning complaint was allowed rights equal to a patent or copyright we would all be driving around XJ's with POS round tube American-Metal Rocker guards (and we would be paying dearly for a design the A-M owner copied from a small fabricator).
I respect the loyalty expressed for BPI, and the topic is worth the electrons to read (quality service deserves praise). You mention a difference between the two bumpers (BPI & M.O.R.E.) and I would like details why BPI is a better value for the dollar?
Safari Ary
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Virginia Beach, VA
Ed, the BPI is CHEAPER than the MORE clone. MORE is copying their bumper and marking it up. Which in theory would lead customers back to BPI anyway, maybe that's how they have a clear conscience about it. However, I suppose MORE is making bank on those that don't know about BPI.
As for this post/cross posting being a waste of bandwidth I disagree, there are tons of people that only read one or two boards. bgcntry72 felt it was something that needed to be brought up, so he spoke, that's what these forums are for.
Ary
As for this post/cross posting being a waste of bandwidth I disagree, there are tons of people that only read one or two boards. bgcntry72 felt it was something that needed to be brought up, so he spoke, that's what these forums are for.
Ary
- Location
- NC Sandhills
I think in general that stealing another's idea without compensating the originator is bad JuJu.
I can see taking a general idea and improving...but theft is theft.
It's hard enough to have a groundbreaking idea in any aspect of mechanical improvement...but to have another steal/copy one would suck! (Tis why best ideas are patented first?)
If BPI truly is the original...and is less expensive than MORE, well the cream settles to the top. If enough folks buy BPI and scorn MORE then BPI will succeed.
This is a small community...folks wanting to rip folks off & middleman-upcharge on other vendors products get their ways called out pretty quick...(like you folks offering 'great deals' on Mile Marker winches a few months ago)
Some products command a premium price, due to superior materials, workmanship, and/or customer service.
I can see taking a general idea and improving...but theft is theft.
It's hard enough to have a groundbreaking idea in any aspect of mechanical improvement...but to have another steal/copy one would suck! (Tis why best ideas are patented first?)
If BPI truly is the original...and is less expensive than MORE, well the cream settles to the top. If enough folks buy BPI and scorn MORE then BPI will succeed.
This is a small community...folks wanting to rip folks off & middleman-upcharge on other vendors products get their ways called out pretty quick...(like you folks offering 'great deals' on Mile Marker winches a few months ago)
Some products command a premium price, due to superior materials, workmanship, and/or customer service.
FatXJ
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- South Range, MI
If I was BPI I would put a big fat label on my bumpers saying "the same as a MORE for $100 less!" What's MORE going to do?
- Location
- Desert Beach So Cal
FatXJ said:
This is what I like to read, because it boils the issue down to basics: BPI has a better product for a better price.
If this was the approach, rather than focusing the complaint on plagarism, then adding a comment that M.O.R.E. copied the BPI bumper (and did such a poor job of besting the original) would be better recieved. I really don't care about cloning a non-copyright product, but doing it poorly speaks volumes about the clone producer (they do not care about the product, or the customer, enough to produce quality).
Danno
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Lawrenceburg, TN
The problem with BPI.....
is that basically nobody has heard of them. I'm constantly checking out new web sites, advertising etc. dealing with 4x4 equipment and have spent thousands of $$$ (oops, wife's looking) HUNDREDS of $$$ buying stuff and have never heard of BPI. Now I'll check them out and maybe buy from them. I'm always looking for good quality and good prices. They need to be advertising on
's web site!! Danno
is that basically nobody has heard of them. I'm constantly checking out new web sites, advertising etc. dealing with 4x4 equipment and have spent thousands of $$$ (oops, wife's looking) HUNDREDS of $$$ buying stuff and have never heard of BPI. Now I'll check them out and maybe buy from them. I'm always looking for good quality and good prices. They need to be advertising on
's web site!! DannoDrewlee77
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Abilene, TX
I find it both sad and amusing that in the name of the Almighty Dollar (or yen, or pound, or whatever your currency might be) normally ethical men will sacrifice their integrity and justify it as "business". Despite what anyone what might say, what is ethical does not change just because you are wearing a suit and tie. Stealing something from a person or a business is the same - just because it is common or legal does not make it right. If MORE wants to sell BPI's design they need to secure some sort of deal with BPI first. It's just that simple.
Any law can be circumvented in some way or another, so merely claiming legality does not make it right. Now since I'm only saying what has already been said, I'll be quiet...
But I would like to second the praise of BPI... not only have I been VERY pleased with the quality and design of my bumper, but I was even more impressed with the customer service I received when ordering it. I needed no more proof that Tim was a good man (at least, not greedy) when I ordered my bumper. I called relatively early in the morning and ordered the bumper, later that day he called me back and told me they had decided to have an xmas special with free shipping so the bumper was going to be about 40-50 bucks cheaper! That's alot of cost to eat for someone who had already ordered the bumper, and was happy with it (that is, it's not like I called and complained and he was just trying to make me happy). Maybe yall have had experiences like that with businesses - but I have not had many. All that to say, BPI gets my two thumbs up...
Any law can be circumvented in some way or another, so merely claiming legality does not make it right. Now since I'm only saying what has already been said, I'll be quiet...
But I would like to second the praise of BPI... not only have I been VERY pleased with the quality and design of my bumper, but I was even more impressed with the customer service I received when ordering it. I needed no more proof that Tim was a good man (at least, not greedy) when I ordered my bumper. I called relatively early in the morning and ordered the bumper, later that day he called me back and told me they had decided to have an xmas special with free shipping so the bumper was going to be about 40-50 bucks cheaper! That's alot of cost to eat for someone who had already ordered the bumper, and was happy with it (that is, it's not like I called and complained and he was just trying to make me happy). Maybe yall have had experiences like that with businesses - but I have not had many. All that to say, BPI gets my two thumbs up...
basalt51
NAXJA Member #761
- Location
- Woodland, CA
Re: The problem with BPI.....
I think that BPI is at the stage where they are getting orders as fast as they can make bumpers. Advertising would just make things worse. They would then go the way of AEV when they are getting back logged and have a waiting list of several months.
That said, do a search on YAHOO for "Cherokee Bumper" Who's at the top of the list? BPI! But the forums are where the real information lies. I was actually wanting M.O.R.E. to come out with a XJ bumper becuase I liked their high clearance wranger bumpers.
It was all the jeep forums that lead to my final decision to buy and BPI bumper because everyone that has one is exceptionally happy. Just ask Fatwreck, he's had four!!!
And it's BGCNTRY's posts on all these various forums that will lead several people that wanted the MORE xj bumper to realize they can get a better one for much cheaper, from a guy with INCREDIBLE customer service, who is willing to modify his bumpers any way necessary to fit your application.
Dan Riggs said:is that basically nobody has heard of them. I'm constantly checking out new web sites, advertising etc. dealing with 4x4 equipment and have spent thousands of $$$ (oops, wife's looking) HUNDREDS of $$$ buying stuff and have never heard of BPI. Now I'll check them out and maybe buy from them. I'm always looking for good quality and good prices. They need to be advertising on
I think that BPI is at the stage where they are getting orders as fast as they can make bumpers. Advertising would just make things worse. They would then go the way of AEV when they are getting back logged and have a waiting list of several months.
That said, do a search on YAHOO for "Cherokee Bumper" Who's at the top of the list? BPI! But the forums are where the real information lies. I was actually wanting M.O.R.E. to come out with a XJ bumper becuase I liked their high clearance wranger bumpers.
It was all the jeep forums that lead to my final decision to buy and BPI bumper because everyone that has one is exceptionally happy. Just ask Fatwreck, he's had four!!!
And it's BGCNTRY's posts on all these various forums that will lead several people that wanted the MORE xj bumper to realize they can get a better one for much cheaper, from a guy with INCREDIBLE customer service, who is willing to modify his bumpers any way necessary to fit your application.
Happens ALL the time.... Im not just talking about business to business but also business to customer.
IE: Look how many cheap a$$'s on this forum wanted Big Offroads specs for their Alcan springs.......people were beating John John up for the EXACT specs. He bought a few different packs and did the testing to find out what WORKS.....It cost Big Offroad money to do the R&D and some people are unwilling to give him an honest profit and want to buy factory direct...................... you want to buy factory direct fine.... you do the testing and pick your figures and if you screw it up....oh well should have bought from BO in the first place....
peace
chewy
IE: Look how many cheap a$$'s on this forum wanted Big Offroads specs for their Alcan springs.......people were beating John John up for the EXACT specs. He bought a few different packs and did the testing to find out what WORKS.....It cost Big Offroad money to do the R&D and some people are unwilling to give him an honest profit and want to buy factory direct...................... you want to buy factory direct fine.... you do the testing and pick your figures and if you screw it up....oh well should have bought from BO in the first place....
peace
chewy
4ward
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Dayton, OH
Ok folks, before you go smashing down this company and that for "copying" some else's junk. Are you sure that the materials are the same? Are you sure that the manufacturing process is the same? Are you sure that the quality is the same? I can make the same thing that someone else does, but what happens when I make an improvement on it? Am I supposed to sell it for the same price as the inferior product with less time and materials? I'm not saying this is the case, but has anybody bought both these bumpers and laid them side by side to see the differences (if any)? I don't think we can bomb one company or another until that is brought out to the clear. Otherwise, it's just some people jumping on the bandwagon of someone else's point of view.
Sean
Sean
fatwreck
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- ottawa, il
OneTonXJ said:
I see what you are saying, but from the pictures they sure look identical to me:
Materials? Probably not too different.
Process? Probably doesn't matter in this case.
If you did make a signifcant improvement, I can see why you would charge more. However, I don't believe one has been made....if any....and $100+ more expensive.....come on.
also what makes it so original>?
looks like 100"s of homemade weld and grind jobs Ive seen on Naxja over the years....
Now if your doing something few people have done, like full laser cut and some crazy hi tech powder coat, youd have reason to be pissed................
Before anyone screams about their design they should drill the mounting holes correct so the bumper lines up and has a flat pitch!
Chewy
looks like 100"s of homemade weld and grind jobs Ive seen on Naxja over the years....
Now if your doing something few people have done, like full laser cut and some crazy hi tech powder coat, youd have reason to be pissed................
Before anyone screams about their design they should drill the mounting holes correct so the bumper lines up and has a flat pitch!
Chewy
- Location
- Terra Firma
drewlee77 said:
Very well said. The fact that BPI is too small to have thought it necessary to copyright their design does not make it "okay" for M.O.R.E. or any other company to clone it with no compensation to the designer(s). It might not be illegal but it is certainly immoral (or, perhaps, "amoral") and unethical, and I feel very sad to see people on these forums trying to excuse and condone such behavior. This is what's gradually killing off business in the United States -- a total lack of corporate ethics and corporate responsibility.
