JCR anti-roll mod idea

[goodburbon]

Because of caster the tie rod does need misalignment.

re-think this statement.

 

[bmyohn]

i have 0 tie rod roll with a spacer on each end of the tie rod and one on the draglink where it meets the tie rod.

i just bought some spacers, i only got two for the TREs, should i have gotten one for where the tie rod meets the drag link as well?

 

[XJLI]

i just bought some spacers, i only got two for the TREs, should i have gotten one for where the tie rod meets the drag link as well?

i ordered a pair and got a pair for free from the guy who built my steering. you really only need one at the pass side on the tie rod.

 

[MG2000XJ]

If you only need them on the pass side, something is really off in my setup. I have the spacers on both drivers and pass. sides and its still rolling. If the knuckles weren't reamed deep enough, could that be a cause of rolling? How about reaming them too deep?

 

[XJLI]

If you only need them on the pass side, something is really off in my setup. I have the spacers on both drivers and pass. sides and its still rolling. If the knuckles weren't reamed deep enough, could that be a cause of rolling? How about reaming them too deep?

yes and yes.

 

[Andy in Pa.]

If you only need them on the pass side, something is really off in my setup. I have the spacers on both drivers and pass. sides and its still rolling. If the knuckles weren't reamed deep enough, could that be a cause of rolling? How about reaming them too deep?

As long as you can tighten down the castle nut and get a cotter pin through the castle nut/hole in the TRE, it should be reamed deep enough. Yours does not look like it is too deep.

Maybe I am thinking too simply here, but it seems to me that a correctly sized (maybe hardened Grade 8) metal washer (as in, one that fills the "rotation-space" but still allows free tire-turning movement) placed between the TRE and the knuckle, along with a rubber one under the metal washer between the TRE and the washer for keeping water/dirt out would eliminate this TRE rotation. Basically, from the top down, Knuckle, metal washer, rubber seal (like is pictured in the TRE above) then TRE body...

???

 

[monkeyevil]

re-think this statement.

Pickup a round disk... a paper plate will work.

Put a hole in the center, that is your Ball joint.
Tilt the plate 6 deg or so on the axis of the ball joint. That will be your caster.
Now the front outside edge of the plate is the arc on which your TRE travels.

When the knuckle is straight forward the the TRE is at the highest part of the arc (vertically) If there was no ackerman, the knuckles being bound together would travel into the same positions on their relative arcs. Therefore, being at the same height from the ground at all times. But since the inside tire of the turn will turn more than the outside, it's at a different position of the arc.

It's not a huge variance, but there is enough to need misalignment.

 

[goodburbon]

think some more

Pickup a round disk... a paper plate will work.

Put a hole in the center, that is your Ball joint.
Tilt the plate 6 deg or so on the axis of the ball joint. That will be your caster.
Now the front outside edge of the plate is the arc on which your TRE travels.

When the knuckle is straight forward the the TRE is at the highest part of the arc (vertically) If there was no ackerman, the knuckles being bound together would travel into the same positions on their relative arcs. Therefore, being at the same height from the ground at all times. But since the inside tire of the turn will turn more than the outside, it's at a different position of the arc.

It's not a huge variance, but there is enough to need misalignment.

 

[ktm racer 419]

3" lift, 44 front otk ZERO tie rod roll

i run the complete offroad steering, but its the same setup as jcr

 

[vetteboy]

think some more

He's right.

Why do you think otherwise?

 

[goodburbon]

Why wouldn't I think otherwise? The 2 knuckles are set at the same caster, the TRE's travel a practically identical arc(ignoring a slight difference on the extremities due to toe in) Take 2 discs, hold them at the same 6 degrees, tie them together with a flat sheet of paper/cardboard at the apex, then rotate. you'll notice that the tie rod does not twist.

 

[vetteboy]

The 2 knuckles are set at the same caster, the TRE's travel a practically identical arc(ignoring a slight difference on the extremities due to toe in)

They don't, though.

Ackerman.

 

[goodburbon]

they don't ?

I'm sorry mr Ackerman I don't get what you're saying. You are saying that the caster of your knuckles is set independently?

 

[vetteboy]

I'm saying that they don't travel the same arc. Your inside tire turns more.

 

[goodburbon]

Why do you continue to argue Mr Ackerman?

Yes I know, due to the angle of the TRE attachment point in relation to the direction of travel etc.

The only way the angles would ever change was if the knuckles were not drilled parallel to their axis of rotationl. and if they aren't that is a very silly and lazy design.

 

[emr1101]

33x10.5s

ill add i have no bumpsteer either. im not running JCR's setup but its the same design.

You are not running JCR, thus your setup is different. And i have zero bumpsteer, my jeep drives PERFECTLY straight, and i have no vibs, and i can go 85mph, probabably more if i tried.

Jeez what is this dead spot you people talk of? I run a clone to the JCR 1 ton setup with poly spacers on each side and no stabilizer. This setup has ZERO vibes ever with 33's and around a 4.5 inch lift.

-Alex

You do not run JCR, and i have zero vibes as well.

so you guys put one of the poly spacers on the tie rod end of the draglink too? I am also getting fed up with my 1 ton steering and am considering just going with the currie steering with the goferit tie rod flip. My steering is so sloppy it is like playing that 80's game pong with the lines on the highway haha.

Mine too i hate it, i wish they made a stiffer spacer.

As long as you can tighten down the castle nut and get a cotter pin through the castle nut/hole in the TRE, it should be reamed deep enough. Yours does not look like it is too deep.

Maybe I am thinking too simply here, but it seems to me that a correctly sized (maybe hardened Grade 8) metal washer (as in, one that fills the "rotation-space" but still allows free tire-turning movement) placed between the TRE and the knuckle, along with a rubber one under the metal washer between the TRE and the washer for keeping water/dirt out would eliminate this TRE rotation. Basically, from the top down, Knuckle, metal washer, rubber seal (like is pictured in the TRE above) then TRE body...

???

Prob not because this setup inherently NEEDs to be able to rotate the tie rod, its just how it is. It is flawed by its essential design in my opinion.

think some more

We know you think your the shit because you think you know a lot, but no one cares. stop being a cocky and answer his questions, just dont post stuff like "think some more"

3" lift, 44 front otk ZERO tie rod roll

i run the complete offroad steering, but its the same setup as jcr

Again, that is NOT JCR. you cant really compare it. But what spacers are you using?

 

[vetteboy]

Why do you continue to argue Mr Ackerman?

Yes I know, due to the angle of the TRE attachment point in relation to the direction of travel etc.

The only way the angles would ever change was if the knuckles were not drilled parallel to their axis of rotationl. and if they aren't that is a very silly and lazy design.

Let's establish some 'given' facts.

1. From center to full lock, the knuckles do not turn equal amounts.
2. The tie rod mounting location does not turn parallel to the ground (due to caster angle).
3. Turning from center to full lock means the height of the tie rod mounting point WRT the ground changes.
4. The tie rod is parallel to the ground when the knuckles are centered.

So, the height of the tie rod mounting location from the ground is dependent on the amount of steering angle. Since the steering angle isn't equal at full lock, it follows that the height of the tie rod mounting location isn't equal either, which means that the angle of the tie rod itself changes. This requires motion beyond simple planar rotation of the tie rod end.

If you try and argue point #4 on semantics I'll punch you in the ear. You know what I'm trying to say.

 

[goodburbon]

Let's establish some 'given' facts.

1. From center to full lock, the knuckles do not turn equal amounts. Agreed
2. The tie rod mounting location does not turn parallel to the ground (due to caster angle). Agreed
3. Turning from center to full lock means the height of the tie rod mounting point WRT the ground changes. agreed
4. The tie rod is parallel to the ground when the knuckles are centered. agreed
So, the height of the tie rod mounting location from the ground is dependent on the amount of steering angle. Since the steering angle isn't equal at full lock, it follows that the height of the tie rod mounting location isn't equal either, which means that the angle of the tie rod itself changes. This requires motion beyond simple planar rotation of the tie rod end. This is where i Disagree. the two arcs travelled by the rod ends remain parallel to one another, unless the knuckles pivot on axes that are not parallel to one another (any camber built into the knuckles would make them change angle) no matter how far out of sync they are in their arc, as long as the arc planes are parallel then the movement of the rod ends can only be in one plane, distance from the ground or angle of the tie rod means nothing. I'm thinking that some camber may be built into the axles and this would indeed mean you need a misalignment joint.



If you try and argue point #4 on semantics I'll punch you in the ear. You know what I'm trying to say. Yes I do, and I'm not going to argue that point. I would think that you saw I was being a bit facetious when I called you mr Ackerman.

As for you, you asked a question I gave you an answer. Someone else questioned my reasoning and I wanted to make sure he had thoroughly thought about his answer before jumping down his throat with what I thought was right. I find it much more civil to encourage thought than to call someone a dumbass or a cocky so and so who thinks he knows it all. I learned something about Ackerman steering today, I had never heard of it before, only seen it in action. The fact remains that without the addition of caster the tie rod ends only need to rotate in one plane.

I fixed your post for you too.

We know you think you're the s%!^ because you think you know a lot, but no one cares. Stop being a cocky (noun missing) and answer his questions. Just don't post stuff like "think some more". [/QUOTE]

 

[vetteboy]

This is where i Disagree. the two arcs travelled by the rod ends remain parallel to one another, unless the knuckles pivot on axes that are not parallel to one another (any camber built into the knuckles would make them change angle) no matter how far out of sync they are in their arc, as long as the arc planes are parallel then the movement of the rod ends can only be in one plane, distance from the ground or angle of the tie rod means nothing. I'm thinking that some camber may be built into the axles and this would indeed mean you need a misalignment joint.

What you're describing would only exist if every single axle was set up to have identical tie rod lengths, identical caster/camber numbers, etc. The tolerances would be insane and totally impractical for any sort of mass production. Using a simple ball & socket joint is a much easier solution (and is why they've been used on every production auto). Setting toe-in to +/- 0.125" or getting the caster within +/- 1* on either side might not sound like a big difference, but it's huge when you're talking about machine components. Even the smallest amount of binding - from the angles not being perfect, from the tie rod deflecting slightly, from the alignment not being right - would get you into a situation of repetitive bending, leading to a fatigue failure. Not fun.

 

[XJLI]

You are not running JCR, thus your setup is different.


Again, that is NOT JCR. you cant really compare it.

youre 100% wrong. inverted T is inverted T is inverted T. im running the same rod ends as the JCR setups, and so is KTM.