Illigal immigration.

Just to throw something else into the mix, the US immigration policies are not equitable or near anything that could be called fair. The qutoas are set by processes nobody seems to understand. Some third world country may have a high quota, because of a famine, flood or repressive regime, five or even ten years ago etc.
The US keeps talking about controlling there borders, but seriously speaking, they may be looking in the wrong direction.
Many of the immigrants to European countries are political refugees from there own countries, many of them Muslim countries and many of the political refugees were persecuted for there fundamentalist views. These people now have few, if any Visa requirements, because they now hold Northern European passports. We are not talking hundreds or even thousands here, but millions. They can just wave there Passport and walk in as a tourist.
I really can't see how fencing the southern border, is going to lower the threat, to any noticeable degree.
It doesn't take a large jump of imagination to picture pissing off the Mexicans enough, to want to retaliate in some way. US policies should be thought through fairly thoroughly, before implementing them. The last thing the US needs, is somebody like Chavez on it's southern border or fueling anti US American politics in Mexico.
 
cross the border illegally is the same as breaking into my house, it does not give you the right to live there. period. if you don't like it vote to change it
 
8Mud said:
Just to throw something else into the mix, the US immigration policies are not equitable or near anything that could be called fair. The qutoas are set by processes nobody seems to understand. Some third world country may have a high quota, because of a famine, flood or repressive regime, five or even ten years ago etc.
The US keeps talking about controlling there borders, but seriously speaking, they may be looking in the wrong direction.
Many of the immigrants to European countries are political refugees from there own countries, many of them Muslim countries and many of the political refugees were persecuted for there fundamentalist views. These people now have few, if any Visa requirements, because they now hold Northern European passports. We are not talking hundreds or even thousands here, but millions. They can just wave there Passport and walk in as a tourist.
I really can't see how fencing the southern border, is going to lower the threat, to any noticeable degree.
It doesn't take a large jump of imagination to picture pissing off the Mexicans enough, to want to retaliate in some way. US policies should be thought through fairly thoroughly, before implementing them. The last thing the US needs, is somebody like Chavez on it's southern border or fueling anti US American politics in Mexico.
Click to expand...


I think we can blame "Affirmative Action" (or its cousins) for immigration quotas. After all, if the system were set up to be truly equitable, quotas would not exist, would they?

Fencing the Southern border may not immediately reduce the threat to any significant degree - and it won't, unless human elements of security are also planned. Fences are dumb - and inanimate.

The core of the problem is that there is nothing actually done about the problem, and really hasn't been for thirty years or more. Throw that in with all the "amnesties" that are tossed about every dozen years or so (I think - I haven't checked,) and the prevailing attitude becomes, "Why should I worry? Even if I break the law going up there, they're just going to forgive me anyhow."

An extension of that attitude would be to issue a blanket pardon to all non-violent criminals every dozen years or so - and I see no reason why the two views are not incompatible.

Granted, any threat to the safety and security of this nation is going to come from the Middle East, not Latin America, even accounting for all the mojados that are hired as drug mules. Illicit drugs are a problem, but a separate issue to be solved in another manner.

1) Eliminate immigration quotas.

2) Strenuous background checks (at the very least!) for anyone attempting to emigrate from a known hostile nation, or even when trying to get a visa (since most of the 9/11 hijackers entered this country legally...)

3) Strict deportation of anyone caught here without a visa or a Resident Alien/"Green" Card. No exceptions.

Physical security at the border is secondary - these measures should be taken into consideration as "primary." At least, that's my thinking - and it's worth bearing in mind that I don't have all this education in these matters that the people who make the rules do. Perhaps that's why I tend to make a little more sense to everyone... I'm an engineer, not a politician - and before that, I'm a soldier and a protector.

5-90
 
5-90 said:
I think we can blame "Affirmative Action" (or its cousins) for immigration quotas. After all, if the system were set up to be truly equitable, quotas would not exist, would they?

Fencing the Southern border may not immediately reduce the threat to any significant degree - and it won't, unless human elements of security are also planned. Fences are dumb - and inanimate.

The core of the problem is that there is nothing actually done about the problem, and really hasn't been for thirty years or more. Throw that in with all the "amnesties" that are tossed about every dozen years or so (I think - I haven't checked,) and the prevailing attitude becomes, "Why should I worry? Even if I break the law going up there, they're just going to forgive me anyhow."

An extension of that attitude would be to issue a blanket pardon to all non-violent criminals every dozen years or so - and I see no reason why the two views are not incompatible.

Granted, any threat to the safety and security of this nation is going to come from the Middle East, not Latin America, even accounting for all the mojados that are hired as drug mules. Illicit drugs are a problem, but a separate issue to be solved in another manner.

1) Eliminate immigration quotas.

2) Strenuous background checks (at the very least!) for anyone attempting to emigrate from a known hostile nation, or even when trying to get a visa (since most of the 9/11 hijackers entered this country legally...)

3) Strict deportation of anyone caught here without a visa or a Resident Alien/"Green" Card. No exceptions.

Physical security at the border is secondary - these measures should be taken into consideration as "primary." At least, that's my thinking - and it's worth bearing in mind that I don't have all this education in these matters that the people who make the rules do. Perhaps that's why I tend to make a little more sense to everyone... I'm an engineer, not a politician - and before that, I'm a soldier and a protector.

5-90
Click to expand...

You most always seem to make pretty good sense to me. I really don't know if that is a compliment or not though :).

Just to toss a couple of other things into the mix, that are relavent when making decissions about the relationship with Mexico. 15-20 percent of the US population is Latino (the last I heard, it may be closer to 25% now) and the majority are Mexican, 15 percent of the US population is *nearly* half of the Mexican population (I think the population of Mexico is around a hundred million and change, round numbers, about a third of the US population). The 11 or 12 million (I honestly think the number estimates are low) illegal alians in the US are about ten percent of the population of Mexico and 3 percent of the US population.
I still say most of the answer lies in Mexico and the direction of the responce to the northern migration, should be pro active instead of reactive.
Round numbers, but likely realistic, since the last amnesty in 76 (I think) a full tenth of the population of Mexico has migrated to the US illegally and most of them have stayed. Not counting the children born to illegal alians in the US, that are US citizens (about 3 million, 3,000,000 or likely enough children to nearly double the population of say, South Carolina).
I honestly think broad, far ranging solutions and accomodations will have to be made, to begin to deal with the problem.
A piece meal, short sighted, patchwork approach, isn't likely to accomplish much. Like peeing into a stiff wind, no matter how good it feels at the moment, it is gonna get real messy before it's over with and the aftermath is likely gonna smell pretty bad...
 
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Most of us want to punish companies for hiring illegals, me included, but then we allow politicans to punish companies for hiring legal workers. Such as
Family Medical Leave Act. Twelve weeks of time off. Companies now have to have a replacement for workers for 3 months. How did we make it all those years without it? Now Hilliary (I think not sure) wants to make that paid leave. It's a wonder companies don't hire more illeagals. They don't want time off.
 
I don't know either... I suppose it might have more bearing if we were to actually yarn in person for a little while. I wonder if I can come up with enough excuses to go to Germany?

It's entirely true that not all illegals are Mexican - Hell, not all of them are even Latino. There are Chinese to worry about, and other peoples of Southeast Asia, central Europeans, and Northern and Central Africans (I'm not sure how many come from Southern Africa - but for some reason, I'm inclined to think that number is fairly low. I'm not sure why, and if anyone knows better, I'd like to hear about it.)

It's also true that a "comprehensive" approach is needed - and not what Bush and his cronies are rabbiting on about in Washington.

Before anyone gets after me, I didn't vote for Bush either. I generally write in for Roy Henry Boehm and James Dennis Watson III - Google both names if you're interested. I've talked to both of them, and they have the admirable trait of letting people know PRECISELY where they stand AT ALL TIMES. I respect that.

It's true that a comprehensive approach is needed, but not what we're getting. Amnesties don't work. Legislation doesn't work. Increase funding for Border Patrol? Maybe that will help - they end up spread awful thin, and I seem to recall a senior retired BP official saying that they were used more as "flow control" than anything else - the amount of flow in inverse proportion to their budget allotment.

Granted, I'm not wild about any "police state" ideas either - a police state is NOT a healthy state, and ends up being self-destructive. Remember Nazi Germany? Mussolini's Italy? Stalinist Russia didn't do too well, either...

Do I think a fence will work? How well did the Berlin Wall work? I think it would be a facet of a truly comprehensive approach, but it's not a panacea.

The root of the problem is that most of Central America needs fixing, and that's not our job. We've been playing "globocop" for too damn long to keep it up - it's almost as much a drain on our resources as the UN.

Speaking of which - where are the UN in this? Why aren't they doing anything useful (as if they ever have...)?

The core of the problem is not Mexico - if the Latino illegals don't come from there themselves, they use Mexico as a corridor to access the US. Since they usually destroy their papers before they come in here, they only get deported as far as TJ or whatever other border town they are closest to, and that shortens the distance for the return trip (make no mistake, they DO come back! There's little done to make sure of what time we're catching them...)

I think it will be an economic fix - with incidental political fixes to solve the corruption one usually finds in governing bodies.

Of course, I find it interesting that most Mexican law keeps the "non-natives" from having access to the better jobs. Am I missing something? Perhaps we should model immigration policy after Mexico somewhat - keep the better jobs for the American-born (perhaps two generations' worth, a la the old "Grandfather Clause") and keep the immigrants paid squat. While we're about it, some sort of control to keep them from sending money home would help - that removes funds from our tax jurisdiction, and thereby causes the tax burden on the rest of us to increase.

I'd be willing to bet if we started doing something like that, you'd start seeing some reform happen elsewhere.

Maybe that's what we need to start doing. Put signs up at the border saying, in effect, "Sorry, we're closed! Solve your own problems, and don't ask us for help anymore," and make sure everyone who comes here illegally knows that they WILL get caught, they WILL get sent back, and they WILL be denied lawful entry in the future. They WILL NOT be able to get jobs, they WILL NOT be able to send money home for the rest of the families, and they WILL be sent somewhere FAR SOUTH in Mexico, not just a border town.

Frankly, I'd like to send them all so far away that if they go any farther, they will be coming back, but that's not going to happen right away.

Maybe I'm just cranky, but I don't have a political ax to grind, I don't have to make people happy (and I guarantee you people will be unhappy with me if I get elected - it's just a question of how many,) and I don't have to be (and flatly refuse to be!) "politically correct." They're not "guest workers," they're not "undocumented workers," they're "illegal immigrants," and lawbreakers by definition.

As far as if we catch them doing anything else? Record the fact of it, and don't put them in prisons/jails up here - just hold them long enough to collect enough illegals to make deporting them worth the trip.

The system needs fixing, but no-one who is in a position to is willing to do anything about it. If they piss people off by actually doing something, they might not get re-elected, and then they'd have to look for a job being productive somewhere. Can't have that - most of them couldn't make it if they actually had to be productive.

I'm highly of the opinion now that one more requirement should be added to qualify for elected office - either be a journeyman in a trade, or have 10 years' experience in general trades. That doesn't include so-called "professional" careers like doctors and lawyers - that means tradesmen, like carpenters, plumbers, mechanics, and electricians. Bricklayers. Stonemasons. People who actually produce something tangible for a living.

And, we should also include veterans, after reforming the Armed Forces to something more along the lines of the Heinleinian vision in Starship Troopers. Granted that's a fairly simplistic view of the matter, but it's a starting point, and what we're trying now certianly isn't working, is it?

For those of you who haven't read Starship Troopers, your local library should have copies, and your local bookstore sure as Hell will. It's one of Heinlein's shorter books, and it's a novel of military and civic philosophy couched in science fiction. You should be able to read it in far less than a week, and it's actually a good yarn in its own right (beyond teaching a lesson that, I think, is mainly lost on the current generation.)

One of these days, I also intend to transcribe and post a couple of his essays - "The Pragmatics of Patriotism" and "Who Are the Heirs of Patrick Henry" for wider consumption. I believe both can be found in Expanded Universe, a collection of short stories and essays that he'd released (one of several.)

5-90
 
I'm just going to say this. I've lived in Arizona for 29 years. One of the last few that were born and raised hear. Half of the bill board signs and radio stations are in Spanish. I wonder how many English they have. I went to Jack in the Box downtown Phoenix one night during work and no one spoke English. Most of these people want amnesty. I say hell no. There's people who have been working for years doing it the right way why should they be on the back burner. I work in law enforcement here and I've seen these illegal's try to kill officers just to get away, and they get no extra charges for it. I don't care if you've lived here for 20 years there's still a right way to do it. Both my grandparents did and so did my in laws.
 
xjkidd said:
I feel you man, it's almost like a takeover.
Click to expand...

It's very close, back in the 17-18-1900's we used technology, this new group is using pure manpower and numbers...
 
5-90 said:
Do I think a fence will work? How well did the Berlin Wall work?
Click to expand...
I agree with much of what you're saying, and it seems well thought out, but I do take issue with your comparison here. Why? The Berlin Wall was designed to keep people in, not out. Sure, the Ossies called it a "Fascist Invasion Prevention Wall" or something, but it was not to keep NATO from rolling into Berlin, it was to keep it's own citizens from escaping to the West.

Not just semantics.

-----Matt-----
 
I here a lot of you harping on slapping employers for hiring illeagal aliens. To a certain point I agree, but I would submit to you that most employers that hire illeagal aliens do so unknowingly. If you've got a few hours to kill than this is an interesting read...

2000
</I>COUNTERFEITING AND MISUSE OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY CARD AND STATE AND LOCAL IDENTITY DOCUMENTS

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON
IMMIGRATION AND CLAIMS


Here's a little bit so you get the idea of what employers are up against...

STATEMENT OF LARRY F. STEWART, CHIEF DOCUMENT EXAMINER, FORENSIC SERVICES DIVISION, U.S. SECRET SERVICE

Mr. </B>STEWART. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, I am pleased to be here today and be afforded the opportunity to testify before you.

My name is Larry F. Stewart, and I am the Assistant Laboratory Director as well as the Chief Document Examiner for the Secret Service Forensic Services Division. I am here to discuss the prevalence of fraud and forgery in U.S.-issued documents and, more specifically, the current trends that we have forensically detected in the counterfeiting of these official documents through the use of computers and desktop publishing.

The United States does not have a unique identification document issued to verify someone's identity. In today's society, there is frequently a need for such verification. This is commonly found in situations such as new employment, banking transitions and issuance of a new driver's license.

Because of the needs of such verification, many documents not originally designed as secured identity documents have become routinely utilized as proof of identity. Currently, there are State and Federally issued identity documents that are used throughout America to prove identity. Due to the wide variety of formats, designs and security, it is nearly impossible to assume that a person checking this form of identification would have the proper knowledge base to determine if it is a genuine document.

Page 18 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC
Breeder documents are used to obtain genuine identification documents in order to perpetrate fraud or establish a new identity. The most sought after identity documents are those that bear the most security and are thus the least challenged during their use. Birth certificates are widely accepted as proof of identity and are usable in obtaining a new driver's license. Generally, birth certificates contain very little security.

There are over 1,000 different authorized forms of certified birth certificates in the United States. Furthermore, counterfeiters can obtain new digitally produced identity documents or models directly through the worldwide web. Once the counterfeit birth certificate is obtained, an individual can easily apply for a genuine driver's license and a genuine Social Security card. From this, bank accounts may be opened, credit cards may be obtained.

The Secret Service began investigating the counterfeiting of U.S. Currency in 1865. As a result of this responsibility, we have been able to track the latest and greatest methods available to counterfeiters in their efforts to produce realistic versions of secured documents. Additional jurisdictions of the Secret Service allow our forensic analysis and investigative assistance in cases involving false identification documents, travelers checks, and credit cards. Through our various investigative responsibilities, we are well aware of the dramatic changes in the methodologies used to counterfeit breeder documents in the recent years.

During the 1960's, counterfeiters of security documents routinely used the offset lithographic method due to the quality and its ability to reproduce fine line detail.


Page 19 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC In the early 1960's, Xerox developed the first electrophotographic method. This process was a precursor to current day photocopiers and was seldom used to counterfeit due to its lack of availability, one-color restriction and poor quality. In the mid-1970's, monochromatic copiers that could produce color documents were developed. Subsequently, three and four color photocopiers were developed and again were used widely to counterfeit documents. In 1985, the first bubblejet printer was introduced by Cannon. Computer printers are now widely used.

We have developed databases of standards that can be used by the forensic laboratory to narrow it down or in some cases identify the source of this printing. This process involves microscopic analysis of the counterfeit document and then the subsequent chemical examination of the ink or toner. The same scheme was used by our laboratory to successfully determine the make and model of the computer printer Ted Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber, had used to make a return address label on an unexploded mail bomb. Through the same technology our laboratory routinely identifies the makes and models of computer printers and copiers used to make counterfeit identity and monetary documents.

We have developed a unique database that houses not only the forensic information about the counterfeit document but also all of the investigative information regarding the use, passing and seizure of the document. To maintain an unbiased approach, the two portions of the database remain separate. We have successfully linked documents that in the past would not have been connected, such as counterfeit food coupons to travelers checks to postage stamps. This database has proven invaluable to our investigative efforts.

The most common form of counterfeiting of these documents today involves the use of a computer. Currently, breeder documents are effectively counterfeited using many of the same techniques that are used to create the corresponding genuine documents. The ease of using a computer work station and scanner to manipulate documents is undeniable, and we can only assume their use will increase as technology advances.

Page 20 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC
Until recently, the limiting factor in the final quality of the counterfeit document was generally the printing device. Typical printing devices used by the counterfeiter include ink jet, laser jet, color laser, thermal dye diffusion printers and color copiers. Today's home computers and printers can produce excellent quality, passable counterfeit breeder documents, identifications and monetary instruments. If counterfeiting of these documents is to be addressed, I suggest that more consideration needs to be made of the systems available to today's would-be counterfeiter, as well as utilization of uniformity in design and education of the public.

Optically variable devices, specialty inks, and security papers are still excellent approaches in limiting the counterfeiter's effectiveness. As an illustration, I brought samples of counterfeit documents produced by desktop publishing for your review. Each of these was produced by scanning in the original document, manipulating the image on a desktop work station and printing the product on a four-color copier. These are very typical of the counterfeit documents that are being used today.

In conclusion, I wish to thank the subcommittee for its long history of support, not just in our mission but in the support you have shown to the men and women of this agency to ensure that they have the proper tools to do their job.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement. I would be pleased to answer any questions that you or other members of the subcommittee may have.
Click to expand...

OF THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS

FIRST SESSION

JULY 22, 1999
 
IXNAYXJ said:
I agree with much of what you're saying, and it seems well thought out, but I do take issue with your comparison here. Why? The Berlin Wall was designed to keep people in, not out. Sure, the Ossies called it a "Fascist Invasion Prevention Wall" or something, but it was not to keep NATO from rolling into Berlin, it was to keep it's own citizens from escaping to the West.

Not just semantics.

-----Matt-----
Click to expand...

Not so much. Whether the purpose is to keep people IN or OUT, it's still a device/system meant to control movement, a la the old Maginot Line. I seem to recall the Berlin Wall couldn't do too much to keep determined people IN, and the Maginot Line certainly didn't do anything to keep people OUT (and neither, I am inclined to think, will a simple fence along the Southern border.)

Semantic issue? Not necessarily - the underlying idea for all three was simple - control movement. Direction doesn't necessarily matter.

And chew on this - tunnels are fairly common across the Southern border of the United States already. What makes us think we won't start finding tunnels under the fence, once it's erected? How are we going to detect tunnels "in progress," or are we just going to wait until they're done and people start coming through again? Are we going to have "tunnel rats" again, like we did in Vietnam?

Physical security is useful, but hardly a "comprehensive" approach. And, I did think when I compared the border fence to the Berlin Wall - it's just the same problem in reverse.

5-90
 
As for Farmermatts comment about most employers hiring illegals unknowningly, have to say BS. All you have to do is park nearby a few areas in PA and NJ where the contractors come by on a daily basis to pickup undoc workers and then drop them off at the end of the day. Don't tell me they're oblivious... one spot in Fairfield NJ that I worked near routinely had 200-300 short dark skinned guys there every day drinking coffee from the roach coach that parked there. I watched them DAILY from my office window.. and this is new jersey, 20 min from manhattan...every town in the area has the daily hiring spot, usually out of sight but the contractors know where they are. Unlike the west the north east does not have that many fed agents working on illegals and the towns don't want to fill their jails up.
 
The guys standing around the home depots & such pale in comparison to the amount of illeagal aliens in this country who are working full time jobs with false docs for legitimate employers (fly by night contractors & the local hillbilly wanting some yard work done are not legit employers). The guys around home depot just haven't made enough money to buy their docs yet.

As I stated before I'm not against slapping employers who knowingly hire illeagals, but I don't want to get caught in the cross fire. If I get a guy in wanting a job I leagally have to get his docs & iden. If the guy has those docs & looks legit, but ends up being illeagal than what should happen to me?

Matt
 
FarmerMatt said:
The guys standing around the home depots & such pale in comparison to the amount of illeagal aliens in this country who are working full time jobs with false docs for legitimate employers (fly by night contractors & the local hillbilly wanting some yard work done are not legit employers). The guys around home depot just haven't made enough money to buy their docs yet.
Click to expand...

The ones I'm talking about are more like outdoor union halls with major yellow page listed companies hiring them. Watched it for more than a year though it did quiet down come winter.
FarmerMatt said:
As I stated before I'm not against slapping employers who knowingly hire illeagals, but I don't want to get caught in the cross fire. If I get a guy in wanting a job I leagally have to get his docs & iden. If the guy has those docs & looks legit, but ends up being illeagal than what should happen to me?
Matt
Click to expand...

That could be a tough one, kinda like buying a car and then finding out it was stolen and having it taken away or walking into a bank with a wad of $100 bills and finding out they are counterfeit in which case you have alot of explaining to do but either way you lost the money.... There is no easy answer either, one alternative is national ID cards that are scanable but that goes against the spirit of the US and the time worn 'papers please' of the german gestapo, the mexican govt is not doing anything to help solve the problem, in fact they are throwing as many roadblocks as possible at anyone who tries. Annexation of mexico is starting to look better and better, heck, I'd even go back on active duty for a piece of beachfront property... the other bright side is mexico's southern border is much smaller and the labor to put a good fence up would be alot cheaper as long a halburton does not get the contract... :D
 
It appears Mr. Fox will be in Utah for a few days lobbying for a better deal for those Mexicans who came here illegally. He may not be able to solve his nations problems, but appearantly he can come here and ask us to take his citizens.
 
Zuki-Ron said:
It appears Mr. Fox will be in Utah for a few days lobbying for a better deal for those Mexicans who came here illegally. He may not be able to solve his nations problems, but appearantly he can come here and ask us to take his citizens.
Click to expand...


Maybe we should demand 100 acres for every illegal we take off his hands.....
 
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