Illigal immigration.

the point to the wages was................if it were really that big a problem, and he really wanted to do something about it, why not create some good paying jobs and do it? But to just turn to it after 6 years like its the biggest problem in the country, well, it seems like a diversion of sorts, just something to talk about other than his miserable failures and blatant pandering to elite wealth..........
 
Zuki-Ron said:
It's funny you bring that up.
I read in a search about ID theft, that the IRS is able to discriminate between your valid tax payments, and duplicate tax payments from other sources so they only credit you the amount you really earn for SS purposes.
Source, please.
 
Slonopotam said:
Source, please.
Popped up when the IRS began plans to contract out some debt collecting - some editorial that said that many illegals just guess at ssn's when paying taxes or just put in all 0's and the IRS has been ignoring it. A change would weed out many of these working here illegally.
 
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I remember when the minutemen started their group around the time when George took office, and the administration did nothing but avoid the situation until now. Now it's the biggest problem ever and ole george don't know what to do but call in the guard.................................give me a break. Before i kill myself, maybe i'll find you a copy of the dem rebuttal to his ignoramous speech on the matter.
 
WVXJ said:
economic slavery is real. like it or not. my argument above about taking advantage of illegals was even substantiated by farmermatt, he just said it happened less often than people think. I'm all for learning and never said mine was the only opinion and thought i had a right to post it. Just trying to make interesting conversation, but you guys seem to want to boil everything down to some militant take over or stand off situation. I guess i'm a troll because.........i'm not a member, or......??? Anyway, your probably right, you guys are so well informed, full of level headed solutions, and respond so well to opinions differing from your own...................

Gotta tell you this, if you knew the members here, their backgrounds, education, experience and knowledge you would be hard pressed to find a web site with better informed members, the amount of knowledge here is sometimes scary.... There are alot of common sense people here who don't buy the govt, republican, democrat, liberal lines that most people do. When you make statements here you better be prepared to back them up because there are members here that will call you on it and back it up with numbers and facts and YES we actually do have a few rocket scientists here too...real ones....
 
Slonopotam said:
Source, please.

I read that too last week or the week before in a ID theft thing, what it amounts to is if someone starts using your SS# and a different name the $$ goes into an account seperate from yours, amounts to a few hundred billion now and it's basically 'free' tax money. Would be interesting to see how it's spent... I think I might have even posted about it too back in the first immigrant thread... I think I got to it thru slashdot or wired while I was looking for something else.
 
WVXJ said:
I remember when the minutemen started their group around the time when George took office, and the administration did nothing but avoid the situation until now. Now it's the biggest problem ever and ole george don't know what to do but call in the guard.................................give me a break. Before i kill myself, maybe i'll find you a copy of the dem rebuttal to his ignoramous speech on the matter.

I personally think George W has some very very bad advisors and some very very rich camaign contributors that when combined make for very very bad decisions. Personally I plan on voting this election to remove EVERY SINGLE incumbent the same as I did in our primaries two days ago. Time to clean house...peacefully, before it has to be done the hard way...
 
WVXJ said:
the point to the wages was................if it were really that big a problem, and he really wanted to do something about it, why not create some good paying jobs and do it? But to just turn to it after 6 years like its the biggest problem in the country, well, it seems like a diversion of sorts, just something to talk about other than his miserable failures and blatant pandering to elite wealth..........

This is where the rub comes in, WVXJ, what exactly do you think govt should do with itself, not what it actually does now with it's 100 years of uncontrolled growth but if it was the way the framers planned it ?
 
I'm with you on the peaceful house cleaning and i know that there are intelligent folks who frequent here, thats why i come. I was merely giving the dem. rebuttal to georgies speech the other night wherein, i think it was Durbin who said that there had been several instances throughout W's term where money and resources were available to deal with the problem, but were passed on. I kind of like the idea of having cheap baja property too, but wish we could use our heads and do it peacefully, rather than a militant invasion or stand off. The CIA could have been infiltrating the governments of Mexico, Central and South America for years now, and can cause some pretty radical changes. But the death squads trained by the CIA in central and south America in the 80's just seemed to work against us, maybe there is a better way
 
Government social programs shouldn't scare people because the government is Supposed to take care of the people. Social programs are where the tax dollars should be spent. What scares me is the uncontrolled growth of corporate rights over the past 100 years..........
 
I am completely uninformed when it comes to politics, which is exactly why I don't vote. I do have a stance on immigration, however. I don't have any problem at all with people coming legally from other countries. I enjoy diversity, which is why I bought an XJ originally instead of a wrangler. I do however have a huge problem with immigrants coming into our country illegally and mouching off our governments generosity. Another problem I have is with language. If I were to immigrate to another area of the world, I would learn the language of that area and communicate outside my home in that language. Don't know if I'm right or wrong, but after living in SoCal for 2 years, it's how I feel. I have since moved back east, but I still feel the same way.
 
WVXJ said:
Government social programs shouldn't scare people because the government is Supposed to take care of the people. Social programs are where the tax dollars should be spent. What scares me is the uncontrolled growth of corporate rights over the past 100 years..........

That's called Socialism. The only way to fund something like that is to give complete control of the economy and industry to the government. If anything, social programs in this country need to be scaled back on a pretty wide basis.
You complain about the amount of debt the government has, yet you want the government to spend more money to take care of people.
You say that the government is too big, yet in order to take care of people it has to be.
You have contradicting positions on issues that are tied together.
Scale back social programs and the budget will be easier to balance, you can eliminate a vast amount of waste by eliminating many redundant programs. Place Welfare reciepients on a timer, I know of families in my town that have three generations living in the same house, all collecting welfare benifits. They make more more collectively by staying unemployed than working.
If you recall the budget historically had been balanced, before FDR implemented all of the Socialist programs that have ballooned out of control in the last 50 years.
 
And i know we've all been brainwashed into thinking socialism and communism are bad words but, they are also similar to other words we we supposedly honor, like society and community. Without the socialist programs created in this country, half of us probably wouldn't have electricity, infant mortality would skyrocket, many would die without adequate food and healthcare. The government is not losing money by taking care of its people, it loses money by taking care of corporations that don't need taking care of and by squandering the money we do have. Our "form" of capitalism is constantly evolving/changing and really isn't captialism in the strict sense anyway.
The immigration issue, well, since i live in WV, i like to hear what those who live in the border states think, to form a more educated opinion. I'm all for learning, but i just don't think demonizing the whole southern half of the western hemisphere is going to help us.
 
WVXJ said:
Government social programs shouldn't scare people because the government is Supposed to take care of the people. Social programs are where the tax dollars should be spent. What scares me is the uncontrolled growth of corporate rights over the past 100 years..........

Not entirely so. The purpose of our government, as originally conceived, is to protect the health and safety of the body politic at large (and not, contrary to current opinions, any particular member(s) of it, singly or en masse.) That was the original intent, and how it was originally set up.

The government was not meant to have rights, it was meant to have responsibilities - and those responsibilities were originally to protect the rights of the individuals. Read the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, and most other writings around that timeframe if you don't believe me, it's all there.

The beginnings of runaway government came about with the Great Socialist, FDR. Granted, the depression was a key factor in allowing things to change, but the pervasiveness of government involvement came about because most of the "temporary" programmes then became permanent.

Why is Social Security broken? Simple - it was only supposed to last five years, and then terminate itself. It wasn't designed to operate in perpetuity - just long enough for the nation to get back on its feet, economically speaking. Again, this is only a symptom of a greater illness, y'ask me.

Runaway inflation started with the Bank Holiday in 1933 (?), and came to a head sometime in the 1970's when we were finally taken off the Gold Standard - in direct violation of the Constitution, without ratification by the body politic, and probably without any though of the eventual consequences. Since the dollar no longer has an anchor to which it is tied, is it any wonder it's wildly adrift? Another symptom of a greater illness.

Welfare is both a symptom and an illness - it's public subsity of individual existence. As has been said, there are family units coming out ahead by NOT working - am I missing something? Welfare needs to be scrapped and/or drastically reformed (I can see keeping it around in a more limited form, but we should also get something out of them - kinda like the old Works Progress Administration. Go out and plant trees and clean up parks - do something! If nothing else, it will put something on your resume, and maybe give you an impetus to get a real job, because you're tired of working hard all damn day...)

Politicians get paid entirely too much for doing nothing - or (effectively) less than nothing. Vermont has the right idea. As I recall, they pay their elected officials a stipend of $100 per annum regardless of the office they hold. I don't recall as they get a pension as well, but I'm inclined to think not. Anyone in VT care to verify this? Politicians tend to be people who are independently wealthy somehow, but lack the wit or the skill to make it in a real job - so they get themselves elected. Their only commodity is jawbone, which they use all too well.

Government social programmes should not exist here. I'm willing to compromise and keep them about in a more limited form - but we should get something back for the money that we put into them. Works Progress, sending people to school, something - just so we actually get something back! "Social Programmes" are little more than a drain on society and amount to an effective devaluation of the dollar, in their current incarnation.

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WVXJ said:
Government social programs shouldn't scare people because the government is Supposed to take care of the people.

Are you serious, so how much is your welfare check every week then?

It is the mind set of some in this population of our country that the government should take care of the people. I say if the government really wants to help it would teach the people instead of giving them free money, and the more kids they have the more "free money" they get. It's not free it comes out of my fuking pocket.
 
WVXJ said:
And i know we've all been brainwashed into thinking socialism and communism are bad words but, they are also similar to other words we we supposedly honor, like society and community. Without the socialist programs created in this country, half of us probably wouldn't have electricity, infant mortality would skyrocket, many would die without adequate food and healthcare. The government is not losing money by taking care of its people, it loses money by taking care of corporations that don't need taking care of and by squandering the money we do have. Our "form" of capitalism is constantly evolving/changing and really isn't captialism in the strict sense anyway.
The immigration issue, well, since i live in WV, i like to hear what those who live in the border states think, to form a more educated opinion. I'm all for learning, but i just don't think demonizing the whole southern half of the western hemisphere is going to help us.
Socialism and Communism aren't bad words, they're just not what our system was designed to accomodate.
Captilism cannot coexist with either of those social models. It's an all or nothing proposition. You can't have a free trade society and then have 1/3 of the population supported by the pther 2/3's, it places far to much load on the system, eventually it will collapse under it's own weight. That's what's happening to our budget and our Social Security system. It's gotten too massive to be funded by a Capitalist system, and it's starting to crumble under it's own weight. Cut back the social programs, force people to make an honest living and all of our taxes will decrease, and amazingly the budget will balance with decreased taxation. The governemnt set forth by our forefathers was intended for national defense, and the bare essential infrastructure for this country. Social programs should not be the responsibility of our federal government.
 
BRIANHO13 said:
Are you serious, so how much is your welfare check every week then?

It is the mind set of some in this population of our country that the government should take care of the people. I say if the government really wants to help it would teach the people instead of giving them free money, and the more kids they have the more "free money" they get. It's not free it comes out of my fuking pocket.
Well, being in WV that is the poorest state in the nation, and I'm sure that the social programs are widely in use there. So that probably affects his thinking.
I agree with Brian though, it's not free, the rest of us carry that burden, and it's crippling the country slowly but surely as the programs get larger and larger.
 
WVXJ said:
And i know we've all been brainwashed into thinking socialism and communism are bad words but, they are also similar to other words we we supposedly honor, like society and community. Without the socialist programs created in this country, half of us probably wouldn't have electricity, infant mortality would skyrocket, many would die without adequate food and healthcare. The government is not losing money by taking care of its people, it loses money by taking care of corporations that don't need taking care of and by squandering the money we do have. Our "form" of capitalism is constantly evolving/changing and really isn't captialism in the strict sense anyway.
The immigration issue, well, since i live in WV, i like to hear what those who live in the border states think, to form a more educated opinion. I'm all for learning, but i just don't think demonizing the whole southern half of the western hemisphere is going to help us.

I think I'm going to set up a Kool-Aid stand outside of your house... You seem to drink an awful lot of the stuff, and I can conveniently provide it at competitive prices.

Serious question: have you ever had to live under a socialist government? Reason I ask is that I've lived under them in several different countries, and still retain citizenship with one. They don't work unless your ultimate goal is to make everyone an equally-poor serf of the state. Want personal advancement or actual freedom? Emigrate; it's your only reasonable option. But until you've had to experience its rather unpleasant logical conclusions (which are starting to surface in a number of countries now), you're in no position to recommend it without seeing the massive problems that it creates.

There is no perfect political system, but by the same token there are those that work better than others. I'd rather have the opportunity to try with the risk of failure than never have that opportunity at all.
 
casm said:
I think I'm going to set up a Kool-Aid stand outside of your house... You seem to drink an awful lot of the stuff, and I can conveniently provide it at competitive prices.

Serious question: have you ever had to live under a socialist government? Reason I ask is that I've lived under them in several different countries, and still retain citizenship with one. They don't work unless your ultimate goal is to make everyone an equally-poor serf of the state. Want personal advancement or actual freedom? Emigrate; it's your only reasonable option. But until you've had to experience its rather unpleasant logical conclusions (which are starting to surface in a number of countries now), you're in no position to recommend it without seeing the massive problems that it creates.

There is no perfect political system, but by the same token there are those that work better than others. I'd rather have the opportunity to try with the risk of failure than never have that opportunity at all.

Which countries? Just curious. Everytime I've been anywhere "Socialist," the people always seemed so unhappy & listless. Probably because of what you mention - no chance for personal advancement/improvement.

Granted, I'm no sociologist, and my last course in the subject was in 1986, but I've always wondered about that (and no, I have no intention whatever of getting a degree in "political science" either. Politics may be many things, but it is not science, and if you need a degree to understand politics, it's time to start over.)

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