Going to move steering box forward... Anyone been there already?

[ROKRWLR]

So, long story short, I got a new pitman arm that fixes my steering geometry but now contacts with the tie rod when the axle stuffs. No more bump steer, but it just taps it if I hit a decent sized bump in the road, so I definitely don't want to take it off road like this. Current set up is D44 with high steer and a dropped Waggy pitman arm.

I have about 3/4" to 1" inch of overlap between the the TRE and drag link below it, so I am going to move the box forward 1"-2" (maybe a little more if I can so i can move the front axle a little more forward). I don't want to move the front axle back from it's current location.

Here's what I'm thinking. Please chime in if you see a problem or have run through this before....

I have a set of JKS SBS plates for both sides:

What I plan on doing is re-drilling and moving the mout holes forward the distance I decide to move the box.

Of corse, I realize I will need to cut the front crossmember for the steering box to pass through. Since I will need to cut off the brackets of my bumper and move them out for the extra 3/8" of combined frame brackets anyway(which are basically the axact same size as the bumper brackets), I think I am just going to weld the bumper (2x5 steel tube) to the frame plates (3/16" plate). I figure thie bumper will become my new crossmember, and I won't need to worry about any loss in strength due to cutting a new hole the old sheetmetal one. I will also add some side gussets since this is a winch bumper.

The only place I could see running into trouble would be the radiator crossmember directly above the steering box; especially since I am also replacing my stock box with one of the bigger piston PSC boxes.

Anyone have any pics of a steering box moved forward on an XJ???

Any advice befor I dive into this one???


Thanks Guys.

 

[87xjco]

Interesting idea

I've got a pic of the inside of the left rail here and the crossmember I cut alot of metal off of to clear my winch

You'll be right at the end of the stock rail with that top bolt if you go 1.5" forward but I would think you could find a way to extend that rail.

You might want to try and save some of that crossmember since the radiator lower mount posts set in rubber grommets that in turn set down thru holes in the crossmember. You may have some problems with the pressure hoses clearing the crossmember and maybe the radiator itself.


Could you get the clearance you need by taking off the longer Waggy pitman arm and using a XJ one? I still get plenty of turning radius with my XJ pitman arm and the hi-steer HP44.

 

[ROKRWLR]

Thanks for the pic and the places to watch out....

Laying under and looking at it, it looks like I should be able to move it an inch or so without having to clearance the radiator cross member (luckily I have different PS lines that go straight back and do not cross in fromt of the fittings like the stock ones), but I might need to grind a little off of the little plastic radiator mount nub that is sticking down through it. Of course, that was looking at the stock box, and I'm not completely sure what twists I've thrown into it with the bigger steering box??? I don't "plan" on cutting the entire height of the cross member, just a big fat hole for the box to poke through. Then I can see my very expensive PSC cap on the end of the box :greensmok sticking through.

If worse comes to worse, I can always go back to the flatter waggy arm I had on previously and rework the track bar mounts to match it. I want to try to avoid using the XJ arm since I have all of the hydro sized for the throw of the longer arm. The XJ arm would definitely clear, but with the length of my high steer arms, I'm not sure if I'd get enough throw. I can always use the last resort of adjusting the axle back, but I want to try and keep the wheelbase where it is right now, and that is too simple of a solution...

Hopefully I won't get any more bombs dropped on me at work so I can get this steering work done. I'm going to Moab in 4 weeks and haven't had this thing offroad for a shakedown run yet!

 

[ROKRWLR]

BTW, 87xjco...
We are going out to Moab the 6th torough 10th (of May). You are welcome to join us if you can make it.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Just so you have a good clear understanding of what's in the frame, here are some pics of me gutting my MJ frame horns.

There are two heavier stamped steel inserts in there that prevent the frame from collapsing when the steering box is tightened down. Here's one of them removed.

Here's the other as well as one further back that the large bolt for the tow hook bracket goes through.

Just be aware that you'll have to work around these when installing the through the frame sleeves. Since the JKS pieces are designed to slip INSIDE the stamped steel supports, I think you might want to install thicker tubes now that you won't also be using the stock stamped steel pieces. I slipped a 2x6x 3/16 box steel piece inside the frame as far as it would go and plug welded it in place. I then plated the top, sides and bottom of the frame right over the box steel and plug welded that all on as well.

Finally, I drilled new holes and welded in new thick tubes through this mass to mount the steering box. Of course, I mounted a WJ box in a totally different place.

Jeff

 

[ROKRWLR]

Cool... Thanks fo the pics. I always wondered what they had in there as a spacer.

I'm thinking about putting a piece of solid stock through where the bolts would have gone (through the factory sleeve) for even more connection between the 2 sides of the rails. I don't know if this would make any difference or not.

I'm also trying to decide if it is worth putting the 4th bolt mount in for my box. Kelvin at PSC said not to bother since I have reinforcing plates and a steering brace, but if I'm going through this much surgery, I might as well.

 

[87xjco]

BTW, 87xjco...
We are going out to Moab the 6th torough 10th (of May). You are welcome to join us if you can make it.

Wish I could, but the new job means no vacation time until next year, these job things sure get in the way of our playtime :laugh:

 

[ROKRWLR]

these job things sure get in the way of our playtime :laugh:

Tell me about it... I'm sitting in the office drawing roof plans when I should have been home cutting and welding!

But, I should consider myself lucky with how many people I've seen get laid off in my industry in the last 6 months.

 

[Goatman]

How far off is your drag link to the track bar? Can't be much, and this seems like quite a bit of work to solve a relatively small problem. You're not the first to move the axle forward a little, or use high steer arms, and I've never seen anyone move the steering box forward (of course, I haven't seen everything). If you really think you need to do it, go for it, but it looks like a lot of work.

My axle is moved forward 4", and I had quite a bit of difficulty getting the pitman arm to clear, and thought about moving the box forward.......but not for very long.

I went a different route than you've gone. My steering arms are short to get very sharp steering with a stock length pitman arm, and instead of dropping the pitman arm I raised both sides track bar mounts and used a virtually flat pitman arm. Of course, then the track bar needed a slight bend in it to clear the pan on full compression. It's all real tight under there.

While it looks like a big hassle, it would work well to move the box forward.

 

[XJ_ranger]

there is no way to use shorter high steer arms or re-drill the ones you have?

I have a stock XJ pitman arm, and get steering stop to steering stop turning with my Parts Mike Parts steering arms...

 

[ROKRWLR]

I took some pics for you guys to see. Take a look and tell me what you might do with what you see...

Keep the ideas coming. Re-drilling the arms is an interesting idea. I have a little room before the tie-rod would hit the coils. How much meat would you need between the two holes? Getting the arms off is a b!tch. Anyone have a secret for popping the cones out?

Here's my axle placement (35s and 5.5" of lift). I don't really think is much froward much.

Here's my current Geometry (3.5" Dropped Waggy arm matches XJ arms drop):

For comparison, this was it with the flat waggy arm (no conflict, but bad bump steer)

The overlap:

The arm:

 

[Goatman]

I'd just massage the mounting locations of the track bar a little and go with less drop on the pitman arm. You have room to move the steering back a little on the arms and go with the shorter pitman arm, but it much harder when you have to taper the whole to the TRE's. I made my holes exactly where I wanted them, but I use rod ends instead of TRE's........easier to work with.

 

[87xjco]

Do you have two hole locations in both of your high steer arms?.

Looks like the forward holes were used for your tie rod ends, but with your springs and all the other brackets in the stock location, those holes probably had to be used. And that does require using the longer Waggy pitman arm to get enough turning radius. So those two requirements work against each other when it comes to clearance between the tie rod and the draglink. I doubt you could move your tie rod back much without having to change alot of bracketry.

I use the rear holes on my BTF arms, with all custom brackets, but the tie rod still kisses the springs on turns, even though they are 1.5" back from stock position, and I don't have hydro assist on mine to provide clearance for.

You might be better off to move the gear box forward, especially if you don't have any bump steer or wobble issues.

 

[asp]

I'd just massage the mounting locations of the track bar a little and go with less drop on the pitman arm.

that's what i was thinking too, from the pictures. it's hard to tell, but is there anything preventing the axle side track bar mount from being lowered? IIRC, the track bar and drag link parallelism (not necessarily overlay) is what combats bump steer. if they are parallel but displaced, i think it will be ok. and it looks like the flatter pitman arm makes the clearances better. someone else please back me up on this. or tell me i'm wrong.

i just think the effort of moving the steering box forward is unneccessary. could be cool though.

here's potentially a dumb idea: steering box in the same position, shorter pitman arm? (not height, but length) :dunno:

 

[vetteboy]

here's potentially a dumb idea: steering box in the same position, shorter pitman arm? (not height, but length) :dunno:

This'll decrease the effective throw of the arm, so you'll have less steering angle available. You'd have to move the tie rod closer to the ball joints to make up for it, which would mean doing new hi-steer arms etc.

 

[asp]

This'll decrease the effective throw of the arm, so you'll have less steering angle available. You'd have to move the tie rod closer to the ball joints to make up for it, which would mean doing new hi-steer arms etc.

fair enough, that's kind of the response i expected. i knew it would decrease the throw, but why can't you just turn the wheel farther? i mean, my lock to lock isn't even close to having the angle of the pitman arm maxed out. so it would just make the wheel easier to turn. i don't know... i think it could work but you guys probably know better than me.

 

[ROKRWLR]

fair enough, that's kind of the response i expected. i knew it would decrease the throw, but why can't you just turn the wheel farther? i mean, my lock to lock isn't even close to having the angle of the pitman arm maxed out. so it would just make the wheel easier to turn. i don't know... i think it could work but you guys probably know better than me.

If it were possible to just turn the wheel more, I'd be golden. I would use the XJ shorter arm and have no problems. I wouldn't mind just turning another rotation to get to lock. But, don't forget that the steering box has internal stops and only turns so many times (Correct me if I'm wrong).



Since I am already planning on installing the SBS plates and a new steering box this weekend, (I'm replacing a leaky box and using the plates to fix some previous damage at the bumper mounts from a wreck) I figure it shouldn’t be "that much" more work to try and shift the box a bit. (famous last words) I think this is my plan A. I would also like to shift the axle a little more forward it this pans out.

I looked at my steering arms again to see if drilling them would be a quick fix. It I had hiems it would be no problem, but the arms (Poison Spider arms) are super thick and have the castle nut for the TRE sunk up in them so without having that recess, I wouldn't be able to mount the TRE in the now location; the nut wouldn't catch any threads.

If it looks like too much of a PITA I'll put the SBS plates on unmodified and go with plan B - Move the axle back 1".


Thanks for the input guys. I'll post some pics of the results this weekend.

 

[asp]

But, don't forget that the steering box has internal stops and only turns so many times (Correct me if I'm wrong).

i think it does, but i also thought they were pretty far out of normal operating range... but once again i'm not 100% sure. i'm kind of thinking out loud in hopes that someone else may benefit. thinking out loud has gotten me in trouble before, though :doh:

 

[XJ_ranger]

my box stops and my axle steering stops are almost exaclty the same - my steering stops on the axle high right before the box does. I can force it to turn farther, and it just bends the XJ frame... even with all the plating I have on it...

 

[Deadman 94 xj]

Too bad you couldn't get PSC to throw a reverse gear in the box and swap the pitman arm around. That'd be sweet. Sure would take the hassel out of gaining a little approach angle.