Death sentences....

[goodburbon]

Jeepin girl, what is your solution. You have voiced your dissatisfaction for the solution that has been presented, but you have offered no alternative.

How then do you deal with someone who has proven they are unable to live within accepted societal boundaries, and have taken a human life without warrant. Do you :

A. Kill them (most benefits for society. Problem is contained at a low cost.)

B. Keep them alive in prison for life (high cost to society, but effectively contains the problem and we are effectively "taking their lives" without harming them)

C. Let them back into society (it is immoral for government to refuse to protect the populus, that is their job)

D. Brain wash them ( it is as immoral to strip one of ones self as it is to end ones life, and ending the life is cheaper.)

I am not saying you have no better Ideas, I am hoping you do.

Your "simple opinion" is too simple, and that is why it was attacked.

 

[WB9YZU]

My opinion was simple. But thanks for attacking everyone. :kissyou:

Whoa there, don't include me in your "everyone".

My opinion is exactly the same as red91inWA, and a bit more cold hearted.

A Human which kills another Human as a criminal act (not self defense, or defense of family/society/country) should be treated the same as we treat anything else which kills a Human. No second chances, no remorse, just eliminating a future problem.

One might even argue that keeping someone locked up all their life is "cruel and unusual punishment" and that it would be better to have them put to death and get it over with.

Ron

 

[XJ Dreamin']

Common wisdom says that capital punishment is a deterrent. So, a question for the Texans among us: since 1976, it seems that Texas has executed 369 people, nearly 4 times as many as its closest rival, Virginia, and over a third of the total executions in the United states during that time. So far this year, over half the executions in this country have taken place in Texas. The rate does not seem to be in decline.

So my obvious question is, if capital punishment is supposed to be a deterrent, why is the rate still so high in Texas? Is Texas really the Sodom of the United States, or is capital punishment perhaps just not working?

I should probably read the rest of the thread before replying, but what the heck.

Not only do I live in Texas, I live in Huntsville - the town where all those people died. What do the citizens of Huntsville think of all those executions? We just don't give a crap. About the only concern is if a particular case is getting press attention you'd be well advised to avoid Ave. J and 12th St. You could get by 'cause they can't legally block the road, but it can be a PITA (not PETA) if you're in a hurry. Use Ave. I or K, and 11th street is always a better choice than 12th street anyway.

When you're talking about criminals and deterrence you've got a poor audience. Punishment works as a deterrent for those of us smart enough to consider consequences for our actions, and accept responsibility for those consequences. Unfortunately, the criminal element is a bit weak in these areas. There is no real effect from punishment, whether incarceration or death, on the common criminal element. By and large, the general criminal is not thinking about the future. They don't steal and kill for the future. They steal and kill in the now. They just are not concerned about consequences. They don't care that someone was executed yesterday. They want your car today. They will steal your car today because they want it now. They will kill you because you have it and they want it, now. They don't give a crap about tomorrow.

That sounds really dark and depressing and all, but actually, the criminal element is really quite small. Only a few percent. Sure it grabs a lot of news time, but overall many many more citizens die of disease or lose their lives or property through accident or Act of God than through crime. The number of criminals executed, even wrongfully, is really very small. If you were concerned about preserving life your efforts would be much more productive on the fronts of health care or accident prevention than in campaigning to rescind the death penalty.

As for "An eye for an eye." As a law that was indented to put a limit on revenge, not to promote revenge per se. One eye for one eye: not 10,000 eyes for one eye. You know - keep things in perspective. Don't get carried away.

Finally, Jesus turned the other cheek. But then, he was perfect. If you find that you are not perfect, welcome to the club. Still, God is forgiving if you are truely repentent. If not, oh well. Best o' luck to ya'.

 

[XJ Dreamin']

This isn't solely directed at you Matthew, but we need to all keep in mind that punishment per se is a reinforcer of behaviour, not a method of extinguishment.

Very little crime is actually deterred by the punishment that is associated with it. If it were, crime would not exist. Punishment is more about the establishment of a sense of justice that we seek when we feel we as individuals or societies are wronged. (see Plato)

There is tons of research out there on this. I'm not saying punishments are wrong, but the idea that they deter people from committing crimes is moderately fallacious. Take murders - the majority of murders are committed by people who know each other intimately or very well. A large percentage are opportunistic, not planned, and occur in the heat of the moment in a highly emotionally-charged situation. As our emotionality increases, we experience a like increase in physical agitation; dilation of blood vessels, increased heart rate and blood pressure, increased epinephrine (Adrenalin) production, etc. At the same time that our physical body is amping up, our ability to rationally think, comprehend complex considerations, make accurate judgements and retain insight go down accordingly. It is almost always in these moments that murders occur amongst 'normal' people. When we calm, we experience remorse, etc. and are able to think more clearly about the situation. These events represent the vast amount of murders that occur on a day to day basis. Consideration of which punishment will be faced generally doesn't even enter into the equation. This type of predictable escalated behaviour is exactly why gun control legislation works. If you don't have access to an immediatly lethal weapon in the heat of the moment, the likelihood of a lethal act occuring is vastly reduced.

The situations described above however, do not explain or account for murders committed by persons who are incapable of empathy, remorse or identification with the victim of their crimes. For these individuals, killing is basically sport. Along these lines too are murders that occur as a result of groupthink. The individual loses their sense of individuality in the group. This is why a murderous gang of thugs can be made up of a group of persons who are generally not 'evil' (for want of a better term), but perform acts of unspeakable evil as a group, since there occurs an existential separation of self from act.

There are many more subtleties that enter into these behavioural equations, but suffice it to say that punishments associated with crimes are generally not deterrents, but rather methods for helping us feel better knowing that they 'got what they deserved'.

Just a few pennies for thought...

See? I should have gone ahead and finished the thread. Beej beat me to it by a long shot.

 

[goodburbon]

Yep but you worded it so much purtier than any Canadian ever could.

Aside from that it is a very valid point and deserved to be re-stated.

 

[ssjkakkarotx]

Take all the lifers and those on death row and exile them. Give them a small desert island. Let them kill each other off. And once a year blanket the island with napalm or daisy cutters or even the moab. It gives the military some practice and keeps the prison population down.

 

[Starscream]

Take all the lifers and those on death row and exile them. Give them a small desert island. Let them kill each other off. And once a year blanket the island with napalm or daisy cutters or even the moab. It gives the military some practice and keeps the prison population down.

Some of that was tried by England and look what happened - a prosperous contenent called Australia. Without prisoners, we would never have the great stuff ARB has brought us.

 

[yardape]

While I believe in an eye for an eye, I have to ask: For what purpose? My logic says first 1. As societies deterrent and 2. The honest answer: vengence. That's not a bad thing necessarily. I can't imagine having a loved one murdered and know that the the person who committed the crime got off with less then they perpetrated.

People also die every day from acts of carelessness and stupidity on the part of others like drunk driving or other automotive accidents where someone has lost control. What do you do with those individuals?

What about all of the innocent children who have become parentless (both here and abroad) as a result of the Al Queda/Iraq /and Afghan invasion? There was a chilling photo in the Washington Post the other day of a little Iraqi girl I would guess 5 years old in a blood stained dress crying for her parents who were dead. It was heartbreaking. Who will answer for their deaths? That's one I don't have have answers to.

My son was born close to 12 years ago. I am absolutely delighted he is here and think about him every day,..... however if I had known back then how the world was going to be today, I don't think I would have made the choice to bring a child into this world. Pretty sad stuff.

 

[Weasel]

read through part of it. I guess I would agree with the captial punishment but I don't argee with how they did it, how they get it. A bullet or needle works for me, as anything they get here is nothing compared to what they will get in hell. Thats enough for me so just send them there as quick as possible.

 

[RichP]

If you are drunk or high and kill someone with your car it should be the same as if you used a gun. You made the choice to get wasted, oh well.

As far as the kids are concerned, I agree, they get the short end of the stick every time.

One of the reasons I hate organized religon, zealots need to be culled as soon as they are discovered, the iraqi's could about nip this whole thing in the bud if they decided as a society to not tolerate the terrorists, they don't operate in a vacum. I just wonder how long they will put up with the terrorists before they start shooting them on their own...

 

[XJ Jeepin Girl]

Whoa there, don't include me in your "everyone".

My opinion is exactly the same as red91inWA, and a bit more cold hearted.

A Human which kills another Human as a criminal act (not self defense, or defense of family/society/country) should be treated the same as we treat anything else which kills a Human. No second chances, no remorse, just eliminating a future problem.

One might even argue that keeping someone locked up all their life is "cruel and unusual punishment" and that it would be better to have them put to death and get it over with.

Ron

It's most likely pointless for you to try and explain your opinion to me and vice versa because it is apparent that we all are all much to absorbed into own our opinions.

As a friend once told me (an friend at that)...

It's not the person with the opinion that is annoying. It's the person who won't let you forget it.

Why should I waste my breath when you will never agree with me anyway?

 

[red91]

Whoa there, don't include me in your "everyone".

My opinion is exactly the same as red91inWA, and a bit more cold hearted.

A Human which kills another Human as a criminal act (not self defense, or defense of family/society/country) should be treated the same as we treat anything else which kills a Human. No second chances, no remorse, just eliminating a future problem.

One might even argue that keeping someone locked up all their life is "cruel and unusual punishment" and that it would be better to have them put to death and get it over with.

Ron

I like you...( in a stritcly platonic way )...

To some reality must be a real PITA.

 

[red91]

It's most likely pointless for you to try and explain your opinion to me and vice versa because it is apparent that we all are all much to absorbed into own our opinions.

As a friend once told me (an friend at that)...

It's not the person with the opinion that is annoying. It's the person who won't let you forget it. (Nice to see an insinuation...

Why should I waste my breath when you will never agree with me anyway?

As a friend once told me (an friend at that)...

When life hands you lemons, shove them up your ass and stop whinning.

 

[ssjkakkarotx]

well this has turned into an elegant little furball. Oh well. I say kill em all, you say let em live. In the end it really doesn't matter

 

[XJ Jeepin Girl]

well this has turned into an elegant little furball. Oh well. I say kill em all, you say let em live. In the end it really doesn't matter

You're right, because it doesn't. We're all just blowing smoke out our ass anyway, right? assgas:

When did everyone become so angry... :gonnablow

 

[ssjkakkarotx]

I'm not blowin anything outta my ass right now Just dreaming of what i want my XJ to look like.

 

[XJ Jeepin Girl]

I'm not blowin anything outta my ass right now Just dreaming of what i want my XJ to look like.

Mmm, aren't we all? Jeep. Jeeeeeep. :loveu:

 

[ssjkakkarotx]

lol yeah. I am also cringing at the final cost to get it to where I want her

 

[XJ Jeepin Girl]

lol yeah. I am also cringing at the final cost to get it to where I want her

And again, so are the rest of us!

 

[fourwhldrv]

Usually I find it's smart to avoid these kinds of discussions...especially since this is a Jeep Forum, not a legal one. This will probably be as useful as discussing religion, sexual preference, or the Iraq War...but here I go with my 2 cents. (Almost like saying "Watch this..." It's the kind of thing you say right before something very bad happens.)

The only people I believe "think" about the possibility of capitol punishment for a crime are those:

1) Who advocate it.
2) Those already sentenced to it.

I cannot for the life of me believe the average sociopathic crackhead who is about to mug someone or roll your grandmother or pull a liquor store job ever thinks about anything other than their objective...your valuables, your cash...because that's why they thought about doing it in the first place.

The simple fact that they came to the conclusion that their best course of action that day was to commit a crime and risk imprisonment or even death (whether at the hands of a shop or home owner, a law enforcement officer, or whatever means of capitol punishment your state advocates)...rather than working for reasonable compensation, and then buying their booze, drugs, or whatever.

Criminals arrive at the scene of their crime based on a set of poor choices.

Hmmmm...

Get a job, or rob a store.

Buy a car, or jack one.

Talk to a woman, or rape a child.

The simple fact that those poorer alternatives even managed to get into their decision-making process shows their reason is flawed, so why would they even consider...oops, if I get caught, & if I get convicted, I might, maybe get the death penalty. Wait, maybe I should reconsider this line of action??? Nope, it doesn't work that way no matter how much we try to con ourselves into believing it.

It doesn't add up. I won't even get into how our current legal system is not geared to properly execute such sentences. If you want a legal system capable of effectively executing those kinds of sentences, you need something like an Islamic Court. Ever seen "Islamic justice" handed out? You steal, they chop off your hand. And if they steal from you, well you get the opportunity to do it.

Now what do you do when your little son or daughter shoplifts a magazine or a candy bar from a local store. It's a different kettle of fish now.

Hell, it even costs more to put someone to death than to keep them in for life. And yes, it is due to the costs related to the appeals processes and you want to eliminate them, fry them straight away, etc, etc. Sorry, we're back to the fact that: 1) our legal system provides the appeal process to everyone and 2) the prepetrator never bothered to consider a death sentence in his/her initial criminal decision.

People are either capable of rehabilitation or they are not. You do short time, or you're locked away for life. The Death Penalty is a Political Boondoogle put up by politicians bend on getting your vote by promising you some kind of satisfaction for their inability to properly fund and administer law enforcement, schools, and a whole bunch of other things.

If you ask me, I'd be happier if the pyscho- and socio-paths were locked up. Suffering the lack of civil liberties they extracted from their victims. No nice work-out yards. No fancy libraries filled with legal texts so they can file an endless parade of frivilous litigation. No. Prison should not be what it is today. And terrorists. Kill'em and they are martyrs. Lock'em up for life, and they WILL be forgotten about.

IMHO, Capitol Punishment is not a deterrent; it's a smoke screen. It serves no one but the politicians.

OK, there it is...for what it's worth, which ain't much. Oh well, you know what they say about opinions and a**holes. No shortage of either.

DJ