Build HP30 or HP44

[jslamerman]

BTW, Toy to Dana pressure angle IS NOT the same. I do believe, if memory serves me correct, that Dana stuff will fit in a Toyota carrier (30 spline to 30 spline), but Toyota will not fit into a Dana carrier (Toyota is a 45 degree pressure angle??) Built Toy vs. built D44, Ill take the Toy anyday.

 

[XJ_ranger]

Built Toy vs. built D44, Ill take the Toy anyday.

ok

have fun!

 

[XJ_ranger]

I see your point, but don't forget 200:1 gearing.

yeah - but there is also the notion of rotating mass -

2 weeks ago when i ran Frank Raines in my buddy's sami with a 6:1 t-case and 5.8* in the axles the crawl speed was amazing, it went so slow, there was a ton of time to think and yadda yadda yadda - BUT the engine would stall at times that the 4.0 would have no issues continuing - which i think had to do with the rotating mass of the engine and inirtia...

even at full throttle i got the little 1.3 to stall out...

not saying that torque isnt multiplied, and 200:1 gearing isnt bad on shafts, just that there are other factors...

just my thoughts...

 

[BrettM]

BTW, Toy to Dana pressure angle IS NOT the same. I do believe, if memory serves me correct, that Dana stuff will fit in a Toyota carrier (30 spline to 30 spline), but Toyota will not fit into a Dana carrier (Toyota is a 45 degree pressure angle??) Built Toy vs. built D44, Ill take the Toy anyday.

having both D44 and Toy 8" axles, I have tried this experiment, you are correct. D44 fits in Toy, Toy does not fit in D44.

 

[CRASH]

Dont know about wieght, but I think a trail loaded Toy is definitely heavier, not by much, but some. That "hamster factory" is the freakin heaviest 4 cyl gas motor out there. All the Toy trail rigs are definitely pushin 5K, some more. The gearing Toy guys have is sick(dual cases, 5.0 to 1 gears, some times BOTH!!), so torque applied to axles is going to nudge the Toyota way. If you are going to examine the chart completely , the twist that the Long stuff will take is incredible at about the same ft. lbs value, the D60 shaft WILL snap sooner than the Long stuff. I actually picked the MJ I am building because of its relative light wieght compared to any other full bodied trail rig to start with (plus nice engine/tranny combo). You know, its possible to adapt toy stuff to the AX-15, after all its an r150/r151 Toyota tranny in disguise!! (different length input shaft, same bell to tranny pattern, and different tail housing obviously)

I don't understand why you think Bobby's shafts are any stronger than Warn's or Superiors. They are the same material and the same diameter.

I double checked the pressure angle and you are correct. The minor diameter of the shaft is the same, though, and that is where shafts break.

As for torque:

Jeep: 300 ft lb 4.7 stroker x 6.3 first gear x 4.3 Atlas = 8127 ft lbs of input torque to the carrier; x 4.88 = 39,659 ft lbs to a locked up shaft.

Toyota: 150 ft lb 22re x 3.83 Aisin 1st x 2.6 1st case x 4.3 second case = 6422 ft lbs of input to the carrier x 4.88 = 31,343 ft lbs to the shafts.

Don't get me wrong, I love Toy stuff, it is very easy to work on, very consistent in manufacture with very good tolerances. I'm simply saying it's not any BETTER in the strength department than a 44. In essence they are the same thing, when built with equal quality parts. The Toy is lighter, but may give up a touch in housing strength.

 

[jslamerman]

Here are some hard numbers as to testing:

ok here are the numbers

................................................ft lbs * degree * inner axle used * failure

stock toy birf..............................3700 .....30........long 4340.......birf expolded
randys birf elimn kit......................5000.....40........randys ...........ujoint broke
long treated oem birf....................5100 .....45.......long 4340.......stub broke
newfield 4340 birf........................7000......80.......300 m.............inner axle broke
longfield 4340 birf........................7000......80.......300 m.............inner axle broke
longfield 30 spline birf...................8900.....120......4340..... .........inner axle broke

stock toy 27 spline inner axle..........4000....20.......................... ..axle broke
stock dana 44 30 spline inner..........5200....25......................... ...ears broke
pig toy 27 spline 4340 inner............5500....90....................... .....axle broke
yukon dana 44 30 spline 4340 inner..5800....48............................yoke broke
longfield toy 27 spline 4340 inner.....6500....80............................axle broke



stock dana 60 35 spline stub..........8300......80 ..........................ears broke
yukon dana 60 35 spline 4340 stub..12000....90..........................shaft broke

 

[jslamerman]

Oh and BTW, I just like CVs over ujoints when designed properly (most are not), the new stuff coming out is killer. The D60 stuff looks unbreakable, and D44/D30 stuff is right behind it from CV Unlimited.

 

[BrettM]

Oh and BTW, I just like CVs over ujoints when designed properly (most are not), the new stuff coming out is killer. The D60 stuff looks unbreakable, and D44/D30 stuff is right behind it from CV Unlimited.

I don't think the D44 CV will be any stronger than alloy shafts and joints already available. The D60 CV is a lot stronger in large part because it's much larger than a D60 u-joint. The CV doesn't fit through the knuckle hole, it must be put in then the kingpin knuckle put on. D44s don't have any more room between the balljoints than the stock joints already use. Besides, the weak point is already the hub and the 19 spline stub shafts.

Also, based on the info you posted above, Bobby still hasn't tested a good D44 shaft. After seeing Yukon failures in JV, I don't consider them good.

 

[ren]

correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the advantage of the CV at full lock, as compared to the standard U-joint, due to operating angles/torsional loading?

 

[XJ_ranger]

Here are some hard numbers as to testing:

ok here are the numbers
................................................ft lbs * degree * inner axle used * failure
stock toy birf..............................3700 .....30........long 4340.......birf expolded
randys birf elimn kit......................5000.....40........randys ...........ujoint broke
long treated oem birf....................5100 .....45.......long 4340.......stub broke
newfield 4340 birf........................7000......80.......300 m.............inner axle broke
longfield 4340 birf........................7000......80.......300 m.............inner axle broke
longfield 30 spline birf...................8900.....120......4340..... .........inner axle broke
stock toy 27 spline inner axle..........4000....20.......................... ..axle broke
stock dana 44 30 spline inner..........5200....25......................... ...ears broke
pig toy 27 spline 4340 inner............5500....90....................... .....axle broke
yukon dana 44 30 spline 4340 inner..5800....48............................yoke broke
longfield toy 27 spline 4340 inner.....6500....80............................axle broke
stock dana 60 35 spline stub..........8300......80 ..........................ears broke
yukon dana 60 35 spline 4340 stub..12000....90..........................shaft broke

this has exactly WHAT to do with a d44 or a d30 build up?

 

[jslamerman]

this has exactly WHAT to do with a d44 or a d30 build up?

Its just another representaition of what I thought might be an alternative to someone who didnt want to build a D60, wanted something stronger than a D44 and could keep the same ground clearance and wieght, Im done. Sorry

 

[Goatman]

Only in 297 ujoint stuff. If you look around 37s are NOTHING for these boys that go 30 spline 4340/300M Bobby long shafts. The shafts are VERY durable, and lots of guys are running 38s succesfully, some 39s (IROKS mostly). I dont know if its just top quality stuff, a better pressure angle on Toyota stuff or what (Im no engineer), just hard use proves that 37s are the opening tire size for those babys.

Good discussion going on here.

However, is this all just Internet info, or do you have some real world experience to go with it?

 

[CRASH]

Its just another representaition of what I thought might be an alternative to someone who didnt want to build a D60, wanted something stronger than a D44 and could keep the same ground clearance and wieght, Im done. Sorry

Don't bug out now, it was just getting good! :rattle:

I, like Brett, would like to see a Warn or a Superior 44 shaft tested, not the Yukon junk.

I guaranteee you, if the technology and materials employed in the manufacture of the toy and dana shaft are the same, they will break at the same torque level.

CRASH

 

[xjcrawlr]

OK, an important thing that has been neglected to be sayed yet is GEARING!

Back to the original post....HP30 vs HP44. Everybody knows that the lowest gear you can get for the 30 is 4.88, which is fine for up to a 35" tire, but what if you're like me and what to run 37" tires?

A HP44 can SAFELY run up to a 5.38 gear.



End of discussion..... :lecture:

 

[BIGWOODY]

Remember this: It was a thread I had 6 months ago and you said this.











BigWoody, did you have a change of heart? You gave me shi!t about my 44 and now you are endorsing it

No change of heart , for me a hp60 was the what I should have built from the beginning. If you are the type person that takes things to the extreme ie: "I wanna run the worst trails and don't care about damage/carnage I just want the thrill" then you better build the 60 the first time. If you have good fab skills or friends that work cheap go for the 60 if not the 44 is a little cheaper and easier to swap in. I had an XJ built it/wheeled it until it feel apart, then built an MJ wheeled it to its absolute limits and decided even it wasn't enough. I now am finishing a Twisted Customs buggy copy with an hp60/true hi9/atlas/415 hp LS1....it has been a progression and if you think you may have the same one, save money and build the 60 on the first go around my only point.

On more thing I'll add from real world testing, we have a buddy that runs 38's with the longfeilds in a double case yota, they work well, he beats it as hard as the rest of us, he does however change shafts more often than anyone...even the guys running stock 30spline 60 outters. the yota stuff is nice but 37's is as far as I'd go with them without packing spares. 35 spline alloy outters and CTMs haven't required spares yet... :wave:

 

[jslamerman]

Don't bug out now, it was just getting good! :rattle:

I, like Brett, would like to see a Warn or a Superior 44 shaft tested, not the Yukon junk.

CRASH

Im not buggin out, just dont want this to turn drama, instead of a technical discussion. As far as personal experience, I have had the old style longs only (cryo treated stock birfs with a 4340 ring welded on, and 4340 stock style 27 spline inners), and I successfully ran 38 TSL/SXs, fully locked, 4.88 gears, and dual cases (stock gears in each case), no breakage (Texas/Oklahoma wheeling, steep rocky climbs, and BIG rocks, though not as tightly packed as out west), my roomate had the same setup and ran 38.5 SXs, and a single 5.0 to 1 case, no breakage, and a really good friend of ours competed NUEROC, full schedule in a 85 Xtracab, modded turbo motor, 37 Krawlers (red label comp style), dual cases, 5.0 to 1 in the rear case, and beat the snot out of it (30 spline 4340/300m new stuff), and I mean beat it, no breakage. I think at this time there are 2 reported failures in the last 18 months, one of which was intentional (Bajabilly, as bobbys tester) and it took him 6-9 months of intentional flogging (bouncing the truck at high RPMS, high traction) with a 4.3/auto/duals and 39.5s. I do agree that the Yukons are not as high a quality as the Superior or Warn (nobody is willing to pony up one for testing that I have seen), but the difference will not be as dramatic as you think. This comes down to a design difference. Its just my personal preferance. Anyone that thinks the ujoint style is the bomb, great, stick with it. I just offered an alternative that seems viable. I wish I had the money to put up right now. Heck, Id love to build Toyota housings for the XJ/TJ crowd (as ludacris as it may sound), because it would be cool. The breakage the Toyota crowd is seeing hasnt even been discussed yet. The steering arm studs like to shear (fixed with 9/16s studs from Sky, or ARP versions from Front Range), hub studs like to shear (ARP studs are available from Front range), and when you fix both, and use a reasonable enough gear ratio, it seems that under big tires (38+), high torque, and repeated usage, the hub internals will explode. It seems most are willing to accept this, and carry a spare, as the yards are full of em, and cheap.

I should have prefaced this whole thing with my idea of what a trail rig should/can be. Im one of the retarded few that still insist on driving a semi-dedicated rig to the trail, wheel all day, and go home. This attitude takes a serious mix of building it right for the trail, street, and SOME moderation when it comes to the trail (I say some, because alot of stuff is just irresistable to me!!).

 

[jslamerman]

On more thing I'll add from real world testing, we have a buddy that runs 38's with the longfeilds in a double case yota, they work well, he beats it as hard as the rest of us, he does however change shafts more often than anyone...even the guys running stock 30spline 60 outters. the yota stuff is nice but 37's is as far as I'd go with them without packing spares. 35 spline alloy outters and CTMs haven't required spares yet... :wave:

Id venture to say it was old style, or 27 spline outers, if hed switch to 30 spline stuff, it wouldnt happen, or wed be writing about him on Pirate!!

 

[jslamerman]

Looky here, even newer stuff..........technology moves fast!!
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=420040

Heres a reply by one gent:

Wow, this is great. I have been running the 30 spline chromos for three months now very hard (42 IROKS, spool, 3 psi, and 7 gallons of water in each front tire) and I have had no problems thanks to them and ARP studs everwhere I may buy a set of these and use my current front ones to build be a rear steer setup that I have been wanting to try. Great work Bobby

This is not something youll see on a 297 joint rig. Heck, I was in Albequerque a few weeks ago and a buddy broke a Warn 30 spline shaft (ears broke off) in a Early bronco, on a rock pile.

 

[Roxtar]

There is something to be said for everything, but the average backyard mech CANNOT just fab up brackets and weld em on. This cost cannot be discounted, as it is the BIGGEST factor in the buildup. When someone will post up the cost of a D44 housing from Clayton, and its super affordable, it makes sense. The ONLY reason Id build a D44 is if I was going to use leafs (and I considered this). This would be a simple, affordable cost effective frontend. Otherwise, BS.................. BTW the entry into a bracket set is 400, then this has to be welded on at correct angles and burned in properly (I dont yet trust myself in this department, hence my choice. I dont neccessarily believe it is the correct choice for everyone, but when your fab skills are such that you can build brackets, weld an upper mount to the cast center, or even weld on the RE bracket set, then go for it. 99 out of 100 members here cannot)

There's no way I'm reading this whole thread but I'll tell you what; any time you want to pay me $400 to fab brackets for your axles come on over.
Bring all your friends with money too.

 

[Avanteone]

The RE front bracket kit can be had for like $250. It's worth the money not to have to fawk around with fabbing up custom stuff.

J