AW4 Tiptronic Controller

[Dingo509]

Ideas is what keep these projects alive..your idea might just lead to another project..so keep it coming!

Well I'm full of ideas, my friends say I'm full of it. at least i think they mean ideas? :dunno:

well it can be done pretty easy, but here is the thing. The XJ is an off-road vehicle and as such you want to have a good amount of engine braking while going down a steep hill in low range (something that the AW4 does with the use of valves when you select 1-2 on the stick) in tiptronic mode you would be in D so the AW4 will not have the added benefit of the Valve adding to the engine braking and to compensate for that you could use the TC lock (it works like a clutch) but then it must not unlock when it receives a brake input,as you would use the brake to help slow things down. On an onroad vehicle this would be no issue and the design could be just like you where used to..or not use tiptronic offroad but then what's the point in having it? Is it more clear now as to why Fletch made it the way it is?

OK yes i do see your point and completely understand the reason Fletch designed it the way he did. And since i haven't done the TC lockup switch at all i don't have an idea exactly how the XJ will react. The more i read what I've wrote i don't think I'm explaining what I'm looking for very clearly, REMEMBER this is what I'M looking for and not everyone else. I agree on needing the brakes on a downhill, So what about ignoring the brake input when in low range only, or just 4wd? granted that requires a separate switch to be mounted to actually determine high and low range but is that possible? That way when in high range or even just 2wd the TC will stay locked IF AND ONLY IF THE SWITCH IS ON. when you come to a stop it unlocks. as soon as the brakes are released the TC locks. Can you kinda see what I'm after? I'm sorry i can't explain it better, maybe i'm too damn excited to get my controller!

Now i don't know about you Fletch, but that is the best damm compliment I received..ever!! SO THANK YOU!...it inspires me to do even more of the same

Your very welcome, this is the kinda tech that makes these owners groups great. People with the same vehicles exchanging ideas and putting together their years of expertise to accomplish a goal. Then sharing that info with others. It's great that you guys are here for the love of the Information, and not the love of money.

have a look here it explains some of the components that this very circuit uses

Thanks i will do that!
Thank you to you too Fletch, i have been confusing myself on the pages you listed too! LOL it'll start to make sense eventually.

PS: I think an addition to this mod would be to install a shift light... just incase you forget what the gear indication is trying to tell you ... lol

Thanks again

Actually i ended up doing this on my Stratus too. I bounced it off the rev limiter a few too many times. I got one from autometer that was very small. about 1/2" to 3/4" of an inch acrossed and about 3" to 3 1/2" long VERY bright amber LED. had a little yellow rubber cap you put over it at night. it would blind you if you forgot it. (LOL Ask me how i know!) and had a very small controller with replaceable chips that triggered it. Nice thing was in the stratus it hooked right to the back on the instrument cluster. It should work the same on the XJ as well.

Dingo

 

[antonxj]

REMEMBER this is what I'M looking for and not everyone else. I agree on needing the brakes on a downhill, So what about ignoring the brake input when in low range only, or just 4wd? granted that requires a separate switch to be mounted to actually determine high and low range but is that possible? That way when in high range or even just 2wd the TC will stay locked IF AND ONLY IF THE SWITCH IS ON. when you come to a stop it unlocks. as soon as the brakes are released the TC locks. Can you kinda see what I'm after?

yes i do, but like fletch said earlier this controller is just a logic gate circuit, and for what it does, it ended up a bit "envolved" ,so adding the features that YOU are after will take it beyond the scope of a K.I.S.S. design.....if we have to do that sort of thing it will be a lot easier using a micro controller and then actually monitoring the signals from the TPS, engine RPM's and road speed sensors, to determine when to lock or unlock the TC just like the TCU does, but we are not building a TCU....

having said that, i do like your ideas and will devote 1 or 2 brain cells in that direction..LOL

on a side note: i know it is possible to shift the tranny with the TC locked, makes for "hard" shifts but it holds together, no idea what it will do to the lifetime of the tranny though!

It's great that you guys are here for the love of the Information, and not the love of money.

hey who said i don't love money?? Problem is it doesn't love me back...always leaves me at the worst possible moments!!

....and had a very small controller with replaceable chips that triggered it. Nice thing was in the stratus it hooked right to the back on the instrument cluster. It should work the same on the XJ as well.
Dingo

those "chips" are nothing more than different value resistors calibrated to turn the light on at different RPM ranges... and yes you could trace the Tach signal from the back of the intrument cluster or from the coil pack in the engine bay if your ride does not have a Tach fitted, allthough you should fit a Tach if you use this(or BrentM's) controller

 

[antonxj]

edit: "BrentM" should read BrettM...sorry!:gag:

 

[Fletchs90xj]

Another reason I made the TC unlock on shift is its a real hard shift if you don't. Didn't want to drop the tranny


Now one thing I do when using this off-road or down a steep hill is drop the floor shifter into the 1-2 setting, the only thing is that the manual controller still has a max range of 4th even though it can't get there. So I'm working on a fix for this that will allow the manual controller to follow the shifter position. Right now its just on paper but should start testing it soon. So Anton... if I make this addition do you want to add it to the PCB design? It does add a bunch more logic chip so it may end up as a piggy back card. What do you think? I'm also looking into having the Display show in both modes so you always know what gear its in and when you switch modes it does so seemless. IE if the auto was in 1st the manual will start in first 3rd start third and so on.
If it gets too much I'm just going to leave it. Right now it works awsome but needs some driver thought. This will get away from the KISS theory greatly and hopfully doesn't open any grey areas in the logic.



Fletch.

 

[antonxj]

Another reason I made the TC unlock on shift is its a real hard shift if you don't. Didn't want to drop the tranny

yep ,thats what i said above...it can be done but can't be very good to the tranny.

Now one thing I do when using this off-road or down a steep hill is drop the floor shifter into the 1-2 setting, the only thing is that the manual controller still has a max range of 4th even though it can't get there.

thats probably the best option when going serious off roading.

So I'm working on a fix for this that will allow the manual controller to follow the shifter position. Right now its just on paper but should start testing it soon. So Anton... if I make this addition do you want to add it to the PCB design? It does add a bunch more logic chip so it may end up as a piggy back card. What do you think? I'm also looking into having the Display show in both modes so you always know what gear its in and when you switch modes it does so seemless. IE if the auto was in 1st the manual will start in first 3rd start third and so on.
If it gets too much I'm just going to leave it. Right now it works awsome but needs some driver thought. This will get away from the KISS theory greatly and hopfully doesn't open any grey areas in the logic.

well intergration will not be easy...even with a piggy back the PCB will need some alteration. so IMO let run the PCB as it is now, it works and is K.I.S.S. call it "Triptronic Standard" and then do a new PCB for the more advance unit and call it errrr maybe "Triptronic Advance" ... its early days so lets see where it goes!

I do however like the seamless shifting idea, its more along the lines of how real Triptronic works, so maybe have good look at that one, the rest is just Bling Bling

Later

Anton

PS: Fletch mail me anything you have, i'll have a look at what it might take to incorporate into the PCB

 

[NXJ]

I might have missed it, but for how much are these going?

I need to get back to electronics class.

 

[antonxj]

I might have missed it, but for how much are these going?

I need to get back to electronics class.

Sorry NXJ i missed you question at the bottom here

this is what i posted before:

So here are some prices, let me know what you think:

Bare PCB - $ 19.00 (ZAR 130.00)
Preassembled PCB - $35.00 (ZAR 250.00)
Extras - Plastic enclosure $ ?????
- Push buttons, toggle switch, 7 seg display, wire splicers $ ????
shipping - $ depends on where it will be shipped to ?

Oh and the prices will fluctuate with the current exchange rate!

that is for some indication but it might still change a little up/down but not by much though!

Thanks

Anton

 

[Dingo509]

ok this might be the major deal breaker for some of us....

Any idea how much these will cost to ship to the States? I' m in Zip 98902 For reference if anybody wants to try and figuere it out. I'd do it but i don't have a clue where to start looking.

So ease the complexity of shipping I would also be willing to recieve a large international shipment then break it up and ship the units sperate to the rest of the US. I may be getting aheadof myslef here, but im anxious to get this and start playing!

Dingo

 

[1bolt]

ok this might be the major deal breaker for some of us....

Any idea how much these will cost to ship to the States? I' m in Zip 98902 For reference if anybody wants to try and figuere it out. I'd do it but i don't have a clue where to start looking.

So ease the complexity of shipping I would also be willing to recieve a large international shipment then break it up and ship the units sperate to the rest of the US. I may be getting aheadof myslef here, but im anxious to get this and start playing!

Dingo

I'm betting that a big shipment will force you to have to deal with importation rules, taxes and more red tape. Shipping it will be painful I bet.

 

[1bolt]

So what sort of behavior does this have when you bump the Joystick or paddle up from 3rd or down from 1st? Reason I wonder is, I think it would be a really neat feature to make it go into "Auto" if you shift up or down from the those gears respectively (up from 3rd or down from 1st)... I'm assuming it just does nothing presently. Doing this This would make it feel like it can shift into 4th, because the TCU would likely shift their moments after you clicked it up from 3rd, unless you have your foot in it pretty deep.

This would be nice street behavior because after you're done rowing through 1st 2nd and 3rd (presumably from a stop light while leaving some Honda in the dust), you bump it up one more time and it's back in Auto mode and no need to remember that you're in 3rd at the next stop.

And it would be even nicer if you're in 1st revving kind of high, but no longer needing manual control, to get the TCU to take back over seamlessly by hitting the down shift button or paddle (or Joystick whatever) obviously you can't shift any lower than 1st so this is very logical and intuitive behavour. and you don't have to look for a separate button to disengage.

The only con side to that would be the possibility of pulling it back unintentionally while engine braking down a hill off road... but that would be just as likely as unintentionally bumping it up a gear so it's not really a "con" in the truest sense. Plus you're not likely to pull anything accidentally when you're going DOWN a hill.

 

[Gojeep]

So what sort of behavior does this have when you bump the Joystick or paddle up from 3rd or down from 1st? Reason I wonder is, I think it would be a really neat feature to make it go into "Auto" if you shift up or down from the those gears respectively (up from 3rd or down from 1st)... I'm assuming it just does nothing presently. Doing this This would make it feel like it can shift into 4th, because the TCU would likely shift their moments after you clicked it up from 3rd, unless you have your foot in it pretty deep.

This would be nice street behavior because after you're done rowing through 1st 2nd and 3rd (presumably from a stop light while leaving some Honda in the dust), you bump it up one more time and it's back in Auto mode and no need to remember that you're in 3rd at the next stop.

And it would be even nicer if you're in 1st revving kind of high, but no longer needing manual control, to get the TCU to take back over seamlessly by hitting the down shift button or paddle (or Joystick whatever) obviously you can't shift any lower than 1st so this is very logical and intuitive behavour. and you don't have to look for a separate button to disengage.

The only con side to that would be the possibility of pulling it back unintentionally while engine braking down a hill off road... but that would be just as likely as unintentionally bumping it up a gear so it's not really a "con" in the truest sense. Plus you're not likely to pull anything accidentally when you're going DOWN a hill.

The AW4 is already a 4 speed hence the name, AW'4'!

 

[antonxj]

So what sort of behavior does this have when you bump the Joystick or paddle up from 3rd or down from 1st? Reason I wonder is, I think it would be a really neat feature to make it go into "Auto" if you shift up or down from the those gears respectively (up from 3rd or down from 1st)... I'm assuming it just does nothing presently. Doing this This would make it feel like it can shift into 4th, because the TCU would likely shift their moments after you clicked it up from 3rd, unless you have your foot in it pretty deep.

This would be nice street behavior because after you're done rowing through 1st 2nd and 3rd (presumably from a stop light while leaving some Honda in the dust), you bump it up one more time and it's back in Auto mode and no need to remember that you're in 3rd at the next stop.

And it would be even nicer if you're in 1st revving kind of high, but no longer needing manual control, to get the TCU to take back over seamlessly by hitting the down shift button or paddle (or Joystick whatever) obviously you can't shift any lower than 1st so this is very logical and intuitive behavour. and you don't have to look for a separate button to disengage.

The only con side to that would be the possibility of pulling it back unintentionally while engine braking down a hill off road... but that would be just as likely as unintentionally bumping it up a gear so it's not really a "con" in the truest sense. Plus you're not likely to pull anything accidentally when you're going DOWN a hill.

wheew...where to begin!
ok as Gojeep said above the AW4 is a 4 speed tranny so even with this triptronic controller you can use all those gears and on-top of that you can also lock or unlock the TC at will in any gear, adding what i would like to call another set of "half gears" to those 4...ok so not really a half gear but more like a manual clutch to limit the slipping that ocurs in the TC.

if you try to shift down from 1st nothing will happen and the same with if you are trying to shift up from 4th, cannot shift to gears that don't exist, it will only shift within its range 1 - 4 and it will stay in the gear that YOU the driver selects, there is no intervening from the TCU as it is turn OFF! so you must decide in what gear you want to be, and more importantly, should be, at any given moment! just like driving a "stick shift" manual. (revving to 18000 RPM's while still in 1st = BAD, pulling away with a 8 ton u-haul in tow while still in 3rd/4th = BAD)

look at this scenario:
You are in Triptronic mode driving in 4th with the TC locked - now you need to make a stop, so you have different options:
Option 1) this is also the easiest, unlock the TC and use the brake to stop as per normal AUTO mode driving (you must unlock the TC before the vehicle comes to a complete stop though, if you don't the engine will stall, this is not serious but can be a nuisance as now you will need to do a restart by sellecting N or P, and all this while the guy behind you fell asleep on his hooter!) anyway, once stopped you can shift down into 1st for the pull away that will follow (or you could re-engage full auto mode, to calm your nerves and drive as normal). or;
Option 2) start to slow down and do a down shift into 3rd (this will also unlock the TC) then as you slow, shift down thru the gears till 1st, then proceed as in (1) above (however with this option you need to take the vehicle road speed into account in order not to over-rev you engine, make sure you are slow enough before down shifting into the next gear! remember 18000 RPM = BAD)

note that there are different takes on how to do this,but i'm not here to teach you how to drive so to each his own!

hope this makes it more clear!

Anton

PS: we are looking into "seamless swapping between Auto and Triptronic mode that can be done at any road speed, however as it is now swapping should only be done with the vehicle at standstill, for safety reasons!

 

[antonxj]

ok this might be the major deal breaker for some of us....

Any idea how much these will cost to ship to the States? I' m in Zip 98902 For reference if anybody wants to try and figuere it out. I'd do it but i don't have a clue where to start looking.

So ease the complexity of shipping I would also be willing to recieve a large international shipment then break it up and ship the units sperate to the rest of the US. I may be getting aheadof myslef here, but im anxious to get this and start playing!

Dingo

i'll look into it and let you know!

 

[Mur145]

PS: we are looking into "seamless swapping between Auto and Triptronic mode that can be done at any road speed, however as it is now swapping should only be done with the vehicle at standstill, for safety reasons!

If im not mistaken doesnt it defult to 3rd when its turned on?
Whats the worst that can happen if its turned on when moving?
i would have thought the worst that could happen would be go into first?
so say that you are bellow the max speed of 1st......

 

[antonxj]

If im not mistaken doesnt it defult to 3rd when its turned on?
Whats the worst that can happen if its turned on when moving?
i would have thought the worst that could happen would be go into first?
so say that you are bellow the max speed of 1st......

yes Mur145, you are correct! that is a safety feature that is build into the controller, it will default to 3rd when turn on, or incase of accidental activation! (3rd is safe at standstill and also at any "legal" speed)

However when i say "safety reasons" i'm not only thinking of the Drivetrain of the Vehicle, it's also for "road safety" yours and the people around you, you do not need any distractions at 60 MPH so until you are confident in the operation of the controller, only swap while standing still!

That's all i'm saying

Once seamless swapping is sorted it will default to the gear that is currently being used and the swap will not even be noticed, but until then......

 

[Gaius]

I must have missed this, but is this going to be production, or a DIY kit?

Will it work with OBDII without tripping the CEL?

 

[Fletchs90xj]

Thank you Anton for fielding that question.
If you wanna play hot rod with your jeep instead of 4x then go ahead, when you bang throught the gears and hit 3rd or 4th flip your switch back to auto mode. The TCU will switch back on seamlessly from what ever gear you had selected in manual mode.

I am trying to work on in my spare time seamless transfer from TCU to MCU [manual control unit] also I want to have it track the floor shifter and reset the limits. Please bear with me as this is a side project to my normal job.

Because of all the interest I may start selling D.I.Y kits. The one problem I see with me making finished product is liability. If the unit malfunctions and you die or get injured I want it to be your fault not mine. [like spilling coffee on yourself then sueing cause they sold you hot coffee]

Fletch

 

[1bolt]

The AW4 is already a 4 speed hence the name, AW'4'!

Thank you Dr. Sherlock, :eeks1: It should be pretty obvious that I know it has 4th gear, considering I wrote this in that same post: "make it feel like it can shift into 4th, because the TCU would likely shift their moments after you clicked it up from 3rd" :clap:

And just so everyone is clear I am running under the assumption that you can't manually shift from 3rd to 4th because Fletch said this Just a few posts back:

the manual controller still has a max range of 4th even though it can't get there. Fletch.

I may have misunderstood him but this should make it pretty clear why I thought the shifter can't manually reach 4th.

And this is why I suggested making an up shift go into Auto mode from the last gear that is manually selectable. Even if the tiptronic does do 4th it's still a slick (and potentially more fool proof) way to get back to Auto without extra button pushing.

I shouldn't have to explain why this is intuitive behavior, and would make the shifter they are designing feel and act more sophisticated. Anyway it's just a thought. I'll buy one of these regardless if it has a couple nice slick features like this, or it requires a Computer gaming nerds Flight Simulation 16 button Joy Stick to get into and out of Auto I own one of those suckers and if need be I'll pull it out of the box in the attic and use it as the shifter for mine

Also I don't see this as an "on road versus off road" idea I'm betting this tiptronic box gets used as much by Jeepspeed desert racers and ON road daily drivers as the dedicated rock crawler and trail rig. Intuitive shifter behavior isn't on or off road specific.

Anyway it';s all good. There may well be reasons why my idea wont work, just thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[antonxj]

Because of all the interest I may start selling D.I.Y kits. The one problem I see with me making finished product is liability. If the unit malfunctions and you die or get injured I want it to be your fault not mine. [like spilling coffee on yourself then sueing cause they sold you hot coffee

LOL... the following fine print will ship with anything that i sell

"this is a D.I.Y electronics training KIT with the aim to teach the function of CMOS logic gates, for the sake of the lesson the KIT will mimic an (AW4) Asin Warner 4 speed transmision control unit in both from and function! However if you decide to use this KIT as a controlling device in a vehicle, you do so at your own risk! For safety reasons the designer nor the supplier will condone the use of this KIT for any other purpose than the intended use as a electronics training device!"

the fact that we help,support,inform and did it in our vehicles should be seen as purely coincidental.....


PS: Fletch - Congrads you thread has just reach page 10 (so now you receive a free lift kit from , or was i dreaming?

 

[antonxj]

I may have misunderstood him but this should make it pretty clear why I thought the shifter can't manually reach 4th.

And this is why I suggested making an up shift go into Auto mode from the last gear that is manually selectable. Even if the tiptronic does do 4th it's still a slick (and potentially more fool proof) way to get back to Auto without extra button pushing.

I shouldn't have to explain why this is intuitive behavior, and would make the shifter they are designing feel and act more sophisticated.

1bolt, yes you did misunderstand.......

now i'm not beating on you so please don't take this wrong, but you should read the whole thread from page 1 again and pay close attention to the bits where the functions are explained,

and no shifting back to Auto if you shift up again from the top gear or down from the low gear is not IMO intuitive behavior. No commercial triptronic unit available as standard or an OEM option functions like that, a miss shift forcing the unit back into Auto will be an unwanted action if you really wanted to shift to another gear! thats not "fool proof" now is it?????