AW4 Tiptronic Controller

[Fletchs90xj]

Originally Posted by Fletchs90xj
the manual controller still has a max range of 4th even though it can't get there. Fletch.

This was meant in a different context. In that example I was stating that if you had the floor shifter in "3" or "1-2" for that matter you would still be able to "shift" the MCU up to 4th but with the floor shifter in 1-2 or 3 the tranny will stop at 2 in 1-2 and 3 in 3 even though the MCU displays 3 or 4.

[and in actuality if you have the floor shifter in "1-2" and up shift the MCU to 4th it will put the tranny in 1st gear, this is because in "4th" both solenoids are off leaving the tranny to reley on the floor shifter for input.]
I hope this didn't confuse to many ppl

This shift to far now in auto mode feature will not be added.

NEXT :looney:

 

[1bolt]

1bolt, yes you did misunderstand.......

now i'm not beating on you so please don't take this wrong, but you should read the whole thread from page 1 again and pay close attention to the bits where the functions are explained,

and no shifting back to Auto if you shift up again from the top gear or down from the low gear is not IMO intuitive behavior. No commercial triptronic unit available as standard or an OEM option functions like that, a miss shift forcing the unit back into Auto will be an unwanted action if you really wanted to shift to another gear! thats not "fool proof" now is it?????

Of course the same can be said for "unwanted" down shifts at high RPM... if you're going to use that argument, and I think those are 100% more liable to do damage than accidentally letting the TCU take back over. Also something not having been done before is a pretty silly argument for any context. It's definitely not a valid argument in this case. It's kind of like saying computers shouldn't have more than one mouse button because they only had one for many years... (Hell Apple still wont wake up and smell the scroll wheel) "I don't want to do it" is fine, it's yours after all

Anyway don't worry I don't feel beaten on, I'm not even pretending to know how to do what you guys are doing (see the start of this thread I was one of the ones asking if someone would do a write up on making the board) I'm on board for one of these, it doesn't have to be the picture perfect box I would like, there's plenty of things I wont use or don't care for (the segmented display IMHO is super nerdy and right out of Apollo 13 lol) but that wont keep me from experimenting with one...

Speaking of the display how easy will this be to just solder in separate LED's as shift position indicators? I can work those into the stock dash pretty easy without feeling like an astronaut

 

[antonxj]

ok 1bolt,
like i said: any input, into this project is welcome, so i do read what you write but also have to give feedback on your input, that is all so the answer (as fletch also said) is no, that option will not be added!

ok moving on...

...there's plenty of things I wont use or don't care for (the segmented display IMHO is super nerdy and right out of Apollo 13 lol) but that wont keep me from experimenting with one...

Speaking of the display how easy will this be to just solder in separate LED's as shift position indicators? I can work those into the stock dash pretty easy without feeling like an astronaut

yes it can be replaced by 4 LED's but you will need to add at least one more AND gate to the circuit, The LED's will turn on in sequence until all four is on to indicate 4th. IMO i prefer the segmented display as it is crystal clear. I'll draw a circuit diagram to show how you would do it with LED's for all that is interested!

 

[jacked]

Great work everyone!!!

as soon as there is a finalized revision ready to go count me in to purchase one. i would be interested in all the components, PCB, and the enclosure, disassembled, im a DIYer.

I love to see new ideas and hear what others are thinking but i strongly agree on K.I.S.S. This project was tailored around simple operations and does so very well. Adding all the bling not only strays from the original concept but will make it more complex, more or less resulting in lower reliability. Its a Jeep, not a space shuttle. The designers did an excelent job of creating this for all of us to learn from and use for free if we were so inclined, asking them to continually change it to suite your own desires is selfish. Give them a break, they are doing us a favor by doing all of this aside from there real jobs!! They have lives as well. Give them credit where its due and learn from it so maybe in the future another thread can manifest including piggyback traction control and automatic 4wd engagement. As for this product i think its perfect the way it sits. it does what it was designed for, and is realiable as so. :worship:

 

[antonxj]

ibolt this is a diagram of how you would go about to use 4 LED's intead of the 7 Seg display:

the AND gates needed are already on the PCB as U5(4081) has two "spare" gates, the colors are just for identification you can use any color led you want.

any questions?

PS: this is an option as 1bolt requested it, but everybody that is happy to use the 7 seg display should just ignore this part!

 

[1bolt]

ibolt this is a diagram of how you would go about to use 4 LED's intead of the 7 Seg display:

any questions?

PS: this is an option as 1bolt requested it, but everybody that is happy to use the 7 seg display should just ignore this part!

Is their a way to get an LED to light when in Auto mode? I guess the lack of lit up LED's will tell you it's in Auto mode just fine, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Thanks and sorry for the trouble I guess I figured if you guys were making the board so that it can use whatever the end user wants for inputs (paddles, stick, whatever) that their would be some flexibility in how feedback is displayed. LED's give me a bunch of options for how to make mine fit in with my interior (which is a daily driver with a fairly custom interior) but also it gives some more mounting options... Like the LED's can be lined down my A-pillar gauge pod, by just drilling some holes and flush mounting them. Or put behind the instrument bezel running between the tach and speedo.

Thanks for the diagram I think I can manage that much just fine

 

[Mur145]

Is their a way to get an LED to light when in Auto mode? I guess the lack of lit up LED's will tell you it's in Auto mode just fine, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

Thanks and sorry for the trouble I guess I figured if you guys were making the board so that it can use whatever the end user wants for inputs (paddles, stick, whatever) that their would be some flexibility in how feedback is displayed. LED's give me a bunch of options for how to make mine fit in with my interior (which is a daily driver with a fairly custom interior) but also it gives some more mounting options... Like the LED's can be lined down my A-pillar gauge pod, by just drilling some holes and flush mounting them. Or put behind the instrument bezel running between the tach and speedo.

Thanks for the diagram I think I can manage that much just fine

I think this is something i can help with
just use a change over switch on the on switch for the unit, unless some one can find a much simpler way again....

 

[NXJ]

Question.

From a mechanical standpoint, how would locking/unlocking the lock-up inbetween the "main gears" (assuming the TC switch is placed nearby the shifter) during normal driving, yielding 4 (well, more exact 3) additional "gears"/tranny-to-engine-RPM-relations, work reliability wise?

I mean, is the lock-up function made for such frequent implementation? Would it experience abnormal wear, etc?

 

[antonxj]

Question.

From a mechanical standpoint, how would locking/unlocking the lock-up inbetween the "main gears" (assuming the TC switch is placed nearby the shifter) during normal driving, yielding 4 (well, more exact 3) additional "gears"/tranny-to-engine-RPM-relations, work reliability wise?

I mean, is the lock-up function made for such frequent implementation? Would it experience abnormal wear, etc?

IMHO the jury is still out on that one....here's what i know..and i'm not saying that it is all correct but some of it makes sense to me!

from what i read the TC clutch as fitted to the AW4 is actually small in comparison to "other" TCL's found in different Transmisions, indicating that it was not meant for heavy duty use, but then again, does the size indicatate anything????? for instance high stall race torque converters are also "small" and for racing you don't get more heavy abuse than that...

the OEM TCU will never lock the TC in anything other than 3rd and 4th and there it is used as an O/D function for 2 reasons: 1 it eliminates slipping which reduces HEAT and 2 maintaining high speed at lower engine RPM uses less fuel (have anybody else have the TCU lock the TC in 1st or 2nd?, let me know)

So personally i'll will only use the TCL in 1st for engine braking purposes (tranny is turning the engine and not the engine turning the tranny) If you stomp the Gas with the TC locked in 1st the jeep WILL let you know that it is not to happy with that (bit like dropping the clutch on a manual) if it will do any harm? probbably not to the TCL cause it is doing less work, but the rest of the drivetrain is really gettin hamered! so not something i would do a lot though! and lastly driving with it locked, in the high gears, will reduce slipping which will reduce heat build up which = Good

like i said it is my oppinion so if anyone differs let's hear it!

 

[sjx40250]

I agree witht he last statement. I have the old DIY set up and have locked the TC in 1st to understand the value. Couldn't find one. The difference is nearly inperceptable. Deceleration is the only value I can think of for having the TCL in first.

5 pages of a thread is a lot of evoluion in thoughts and comments. How about a summary?

 

[antonxj]

This is something you all should read, as written by dave kamp back in 1999:
http://wagoneers.com/XJ/tech/xj-tcu.html

some good information there!

 

[1bolt]

So any updates yet? any time table for completed shipping boards?

 

[antonxj]

Hi guys, sorry for the wait, but i've been bussy with my Day Job

allright so for an update.....

1. The board is ready to ship, however to keep costs down shipping will be by small parcel normal air mail.

2. In order not to break the forum rules, the price and ordering information will only be done through PM and e-mail....so if anybody is interested sent me a PM and we will take it from there.

3. Still have to finnish the instruction sheet and installation write up

4. Here is some more pics of my install

The TCU as found under the dash, on the pasenger side..

The wires seperated, cut and the diodes soldered in, ready for the tiptronic wires...however read the bottom of this post for and update on the use of these diodes.

Fitted a 25 Pin D-sub connector to the enclosure, works great! The ribon cable is just to power the 7 Segment display, and note that the other wires used are all MIL spec (very expensive)

Temporary location of the Joy stick shifter, for testing....the small togle switch to the right of the floor shifter is to engage the Tiptronic/Auto mode....Probably will use buttons on the steering for a final install, not sure yet!:dunno:

A small and inexpensive Tach to keep an eye on engine performance in manual mode

A view of the gear indication from the driver's perspective...it's not as bright as on the photo(camera light trick) however it is clear in both day and night use!

After using it a while i noticed a lot of heat generated by the TIP 120's so i fitted a bigger heatsink and then for the hell of it i also fitted a 12V CPU cooler fan that I had laying around...total over kill but it ads to the WOW factor...and really helps to cool it down!:laugh:

Ok so back to the diodes....
as part of a design i'm thinking of for the 97+ guys that trips the CEL when doing this mod (or any of the others available) i droped the use of the diodes and now switch the solonoids from Auto to Triptronic mode by using a small relay board..sorry didn't take any pics of it but will if anyone is interested! this allows me to leave the TCU power on.

added to that i'm gonna build a circuit to "alter" the signal that the NSS sends to the TCU, then use the relay board to cut power to the soloniods, and if i'm right this would allow for any external signal to be send to the tranny without tripping the CEL , just have to find a willing test subject...

will update when i have the circuit done...

Later

 

[Gaius]

Cool, I have a 98 and interested to see the outcome. Keep us posted!

 

[Root Moose]

Cool, I have a 98 and interested to see the outcome. Keep us posted!

x2. I have a 98 and a 01 and have been following this thread closely.

 

[Fletchs90xj]

Hey everybody, I'm Dr.....

anyway, I've thinking for a while about the 97+ CEL issue. And I think that instead of turning off the power to the TCU use a DPDT relay that when the MCU is powered causes the relay to switch the soleniod power from one to the other. That way the PCM still sees the TCU. All this is speculative as I own a 90 and dont' have access to a 97+ for testing. So does a guinypig want to wire up some switchs and see if it works

1dpdt switch and 2 spst (on,off)

wire as follows:
cut TCU output wires for sol1+2 and attch TCU ends to [on] on seprate poles of the DPDT switch. Attach Sol1+2 wires to coresponding pole common pin on DPDT. Attach the SPST switchs to the remaining pins of the DPDT and give the SPST switchs 12VDC.



| Sol1
| TCU |
|------+ +-----+ <-SW3(DPDT)
|xxxxxx|-----------|-* /*-|---------*\________12vdc
|xxxxxx|-----------|-* /*-|----*\________|
|------+ +-----+ ^ ^
| | SW2 SW1|
| Sol2
| SW1 SW2
1st= I O
2nd= I I
3rd= O I
4th= O O

Give it a go old school {apperently the forum like to delete all the spaces in my ASCII drawing}

Fletch

 

[lawsoncl]

...I've thinking for a while about the 97+ CEL issue. And I think that instead of turning off the power to the TCU use a DPDT relay that when the MCU is powered causes the relay to switch the soleniod power from one to the other. That way the PCM still sees the TCU.

This will still generate fault codes. The OBDII setup added a input speed sensor to the AW4 so the TCU can diagnose converter lockup or shift solenoid problems. It will throw codes for bad solenoids or converter lockup if the transmission shaft input/output speeds indicate that the transmission in a different gear than the TCU is commanding.

 

[Fletchs90xj]

then I guess you are SOL and will have to live with the CEL :laugh3:

 

[lawsoncl]

I'm wondering if it's possible to interact with the TCU through the OBD2 link and possibly put it in some sort of test mode. Perhaps using a microcontroller with the joystick or switch inputs and have it send the right commands to the TCU. The designs and parts counts here have escalated to the point where a small microcontroller or PLD to handle everything would be a simpler solution. The downside is that it's not an off-the-shelf solution as it would require programming.

 

[Gojeep]

Funny thing is that it is not all OBDII's that are a problem as it wont throw a CEL on a 96 that does have OBDII? I wonder if you could use a TCU from a 96 in a later XJ and still have it work? Depends if the ECU is looking for the extra inputs as well that the later OBDII's have?