Americans: So quick to give to the world, yet so blind to thier own issues

[dandecicco]

I didn't want to hijack the thread "Thanksgiving Comes Early for Afghan Children" so I will start this.

Now this will surely lead to flaming attacks and negative feedback for me but . . . There are so many problems going on in America with the poverty levels, lack of funding in education (I am a college lecturer and high school teacher and see the problems everyday), problems with welfare, and other social issues, why are people so ready to jump on causes for other countries?

In no way am I bashing our troops as I support Bush, our government, and the men and women in the forces. To make it clear, I am not addressing terrorism and our role in the war as that is a different issue. I am addressing America’s social issues that impact all Americans. I just see a greater need for Americans to put down the world issue tunnel vision and look towards are own country for helping with those concerns that are problems with our own society.

Spend more on educating those Americans with out jobs, feed those that need a little more help to get on their feet, and reform the medical insurance problems that plague emergency rooms across the country. Donate time, money, and resources there and then look abroad.

I am open to flame . . .

 

[red91]

:flame:

Got it covered.

 

[Urban Redneck]

Maybe if people looked to themselves for dealing with their problems...
Ask not what you can do for your country...ask what your country can do for you.....

Do we really have to start the political debate, again?

 

[Danno]

It's like the churches collecting money for overseas projects. It's easier to give money than time. Easier to pay somebody to do it for us.
My wife is a teacher and a lot of parents expect the schools to raise their children.But when the schools do attempt to change the kids behavior, then the parents scream.
The only way things will change for the better is for us to give of our time AND money. Or as in the case of our soldiers overseas....their lives. :us:

 

[Eagle]

It may be that those Americans in a position to donate feel that people in poor, third-world countries need help but that Americans don't -- or "shouldn't."

I sort of agree with you, but I submit that education for the struggling poor in this country isn't the answer. Our government (both parties) and financial leaders (the BIG investors and corporate CEOs) are working overtime to send every skilled job they can to third world countries where they don't have to pay American salearies, don't have to pay Social Security and health care benefits, and don't have to worry about environmental and OSHA regulations. You don't need much education to flip burgers, and within a few years there will be only two job descriptions left in this country: CEO, and burger flipper.

 

[DrMoab]

Spend more on educating those Americans with out jobs, feed those that need a little more help to get on their feet, and reform the medical insurance problems that plague emergency rooms across the country. Donate time, money, and resources there and then look abroad.

I am open to flame . . .

Not going to flame you but I have to say this....My wife works for the Department of workforce services....Basicly the welfare department....From what I see with her and her job I know that we spend a ton of money trying to help people out here....Why is the problem not going away if we are spending all this money? Simple problebly 80% of the people on welfare don't just need" a little more help to get on their feet" as you stated...They don't want to get on their feet. They like having you and me and the rest of the world hold their hand...Are there people that do just need that little bit of help? Sure but for them you are talking about a very small amount of money that goes into the welfare department.
In a way I agree with you...I don't think we should be sending any money over seas until we get stuff straightend out here...I just have a different view on what needs to be straightend out...First of all the the medical issue...You want to fix that start by kicking out all the illegals...They are a huge drain on the medical industry...They go in get medical help at the emergency room and leave you and me stuck with the bill....Second....Make it illegal to file lawsuits against doctors unless it can be proven that the doctor acted crimialy. These two things are the main reason that its so expencive for health care in this country.
We do not need a national healthcare program in this country...We as a nation just need to quit being so greedy and trying to make a quick buck by suing an easy target like your doctor.
Just look at the substandard medical care you get in any country that has a national heathcare program and you will see it just doesn't work...Its kind of like you get what you pay for....yeah it sucks to pay for medical bills but at least you know you are getting good care.

As far as educating people that are out of jobs....again they don't want to be educated...they want you and I to pay their way through life....Sorry but its true..

 

[Glenn B]

While I respect your opinion, you are talking about a Socialist state. No thanks. Get a job, pay your bills.... buy what you want.. etc... etc..... That is how it works.

You get sick, pay the doctor, or get insurance.
Your Jeep breaks, pay for the repairs outta your wages.
Welfare? Sorry... no sympathy there. McDonalds is always hiring.

We, as a Country should not be responsible for every single persons welfare. That, IMHO is a local issue. There are plenty of local programs to take care of those in short term need.

One of the things many tend to overlook when I post about the *good* our Armed Forces do, is that many of the supplies are donated. Now, if the local school needed things more that the places we are serving, people would usually give locally first.

Another thing that comes up is Teachers being under paid. I call bull shit on that too. Most are paid well indeed. And that whole "summer off thing" is a nice perk. But again, THAT is a local thing, paid by the local tax payers via Levy, bonds, etc..... NOT a USA wide thing. You want more crayons, get the vote out on the next lid lift or Bond issue. It IS as simple as that, unless you are a socialist, and want ME to pay for YOUR kids education.

Our Armed Forces are doing a hell of a job. They are making good progress, both in the War and in the local poulation concerns. If you want to stop that, vote. If ya lose, realise you are in the minority. BUT.... know that out guys are doing the best they can, with what they got.

Side Note: Manteca heh? I lived there until 1984.... then I joined the Army.

Food for thought.

 

[dandecicco]

Well eagle, those two job descriptions don't work for this behavior correcting, yelled at by parents for correcting those negative behaviors teacher

Then to correct the issue the teachers in my district were given a very clear description of the future of education. The CEO at this in-service said the following:
1) Educators will be second class citizens unless they look abroad for jobs.
2) The day of the laborers, mechanics, and general all around works is over.
3) We must look at getting other countries to have their children educator here.
4) Bend over and shove your head in, inhale deeply, and smell the rot of your own future (this I paraphrased)

Is this following your reasoning?

 

[Glenn B]

Sounds like that CEO needs to go the way of Spreckles Sugar... Boom, gone. Sorry, but a CEO with such a negative outlook? That is crap.

Oppurtunities are out there. It is up to the individual to find it and make it work, not the Gov.

Well eagle, those two job descriptions don't work for this behavior correcting, yelled at by parents for correcting those negative behaviors teacher

Then to correct the issue the teachers in my district were given a very clear description of the future of education. The CEO at this in-service said the following:
1) Educators will be second class citizens unless they look abroad for jobs.
2) The day of the laborers, mechanics, and general all around works is over.
3) We must look at getting other countries to have their children educator here.
4) Bend over and shove your head in, inhale deeply, and smell the rot of your own future (this I paraphrased)

Is this following your reasoning?

 

[dandecicco]

Not going to flame you but I have to say this....My wife works for the Department of workforce services....Basicly the welfare department....From what I see with her and her job I know that we spend a ton of money trying to help people out here....Why is the problem not going away if we are spending all this money? Simple problebly 80% of the people on welfare don't just need" a little more help to get on their feet" as you stated...They don't want to get on their feet. They like having you and me and the rest of the world hold their hand...Are there people that do just need that little bit of help? Sure but for them you are talking about a very small amount of money that goes into the welfare department.
In a way I agree with you...I don't think we should be sending any money over seas until we get stuff straightend out here...I just have a different view on what needs to be straightend out...First of all the the medical issue...You want to fix that start by kicking out all the illegals...They are a huge drain on the medical industry...They go in get medical help at the emergency room and leave you and me stuck with the bill....Second....Make it illegal to file lawsuits against doctors unless it can be proven that the doctor acted crimialy. These two things are the main reason that its so expencive for health care in this country.
We do not need a national healthcare program in this country...We as a nation just need to quit being so greedy and trying to make a quick buck by suing an easy target like your doctor.
Just look at the substandard medical care you get in any country that has a national heathcare program and you will see it just doesn't work...Its kind of like you get what you pay for....yeah it sucks to pay for medical bills but at least you know you are getting good care.

As far as educating people that are out of jobs....again they don't want to be educated...they want you and I to pay their way through life....Sorry but its true..

Yes I do agree with you and stand by what you said 100%. I see this everyday and for some reason I keep trying to help a few of those that might fall into that repeating cycle. And I am a Republican educator. Go figure.

I also have to say, I have a 16 month old son and both my wife and I pay a huge portion of our paycheck for healthcare. He had to go to the emergency room for a 105.5 temp. at 3:30 am and we had to wait for 6 hours to get him to be seen. We live in a small town too so image a big city. Those before us didn't have health coverage and were allowed to go before my child. My wife had to sidate me before I did something that I would regret later.

 

[Glenn B]

When I lived in Manteca, the Teachers lived well. Had nice houses and cars etc.... If that is no longer the case, it is the Scool Boards fault and the local Tax Payers fault. Thoes monies come from votes of the people.

MHS Buffalo's

Well eagle, those two job descriptions don't work for this behavior correcting, yelled at by parents for correcting those negative behaviors teacher

Then to correct the issue the teachers in my district were given a very clear description of the future of education. The CEO at this in-service said the following:
1) Educators will be second class citizens unless they look abroad for jobs.
2) The day of the laborers, mechanics, and general all around works is over.
3) We must look at getting other countries to have their children educator here.
4) Bend over and shove your head in, inhale deeply, and smell the rot of your own future (this I paraphrased)

Is this following your reasoning?

 

[DrMoab]

Another thing that comes up is Teachers being under paid. I call bull shit on that too. Most are paid well indeed. And that whole "summer off thing" is a nice perk. But again, THAT is a local thing, paid by the local tax payers via Levy, bonds, etc..... NOT a USA wide thing. You want more crayons, get the vote out on the next lid lift or Bond issue. It IS as simple as that, unless you are a socialist, and want ME to pay for YOUR kids education.

Yeah this ****es me off too. They get paid about the same as I do around here....I bust my butt and work all year. They get paid all year and have three months off and then complain that they aren't making enough money...I would like to see them lug a crude oil hose around for a day making that kind of money just to watch them cry.
If I had the money all my kids would either be home schooled or privatly taught. I really don't like the public school system at all.

 

[red91]

Then to correct the issue the teachers in my district were given a very clear description of the future of education. The CEO at this in-service said the following:
1) Educators will be second class citizens unless they look abroad for jobs.

boo hoo. They signed up for it knowing full well what they were getting into. Blame the NEA or the Teachers Union if they want. It's not our fault. Stop pushing all this touchy-feely crap on MY children and get back to educating.

2) The day of the laborers, mechanics, and general all around works is over.

B.S. more propaganda. There are many more machines now than ever before, and manual laobr will always be necessary in an industrialized nation.

ask all those whinney little bitches when do I get an " in service day?" They take off more time during the school year than I get all year. And they only work a 9.5 hour day at most thanks to their union.

 

[DrMoab]

I also have to say, I have a 16 month old son and both my wife and I pay a huge portion of our paycheck for healthcare. He had to go to the emergency room for a 105.5 temp. at 3:30 am and we had to wait for 6 hours to get him to be seen. We live in a small town too so image a big city. Those before us didn't have health coverage and were allowed to go before my child. My wife had to sidate me before I did something that I would regret later.

Since my wife works for the state we have pretty good healthcare....Even with good insurance you are still going to wait in the ER. Thats just a given.
The area I live in is nothing like LA or Chicago but everytime I go to the ER its still 80% Hispanic...Not crapping on the Hispanic population here but I have to wonder in a area thats Prolly 80% white why that is. I also wonder how many of them are going to pay their bill when its all over.

 

[5-90]

Concur. I often thet so busy playing "Globocop" that we really forget that we've no right to get the rest of the world on its feet until we can prove that we can do it at home...

Issues here I'd like to see fixed... (here in no particular order...)

Public Education (get the Federal government OUT of it - that's half the damn problem! Ever notice how all these Federal "initiatives" aren't working worth a damn? Start by disbanding the NEA - they're largely a political animal with little to no utility in education that I've seen. Teachers here? Prove me wrong...)

Poverty/Economy (Start with a tax holiday and lower the minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage all the time helps no-one but the government - it increases the tax base. Lower the MW, lower the cost of production, things can become more affordable. While we're at it, dissolve the "Federal Reserve" and give economic "ship" back its former anchor of the Gold Standard. We've rampant inflation because there's really nothing to stop it.)

Poverty/Welfare (If we have to maintain some sort of welfare system, I propose the following. 1) If you are able-bodied and out of work, you put in some sort of "community service" like the old Works Progress programme in order to get your cheque. 2) If you are out of work due to education, your "public service" contribution may be minimised or eliminated, but then you MUST go to trade school or college. Also, in either case you get jobs training and placement assistance and have to be back to work within, say, two years unless your education will require more time for a legitimate reason (an apprenticeship, say - but that should be paid by the outfit you are working for at the time. I also say that Medicare and SS require drastic reform - they're just another form of welfare...)

Politics/Term Limits (People are getting FAR too comfortable in Washington, and living in that rarefied air causes trouble with the rest of the country. MAKE them get out and live & work for a while so they can stay in touch. Hell, since most of them are independently wealthy, why not suspend or cut off their pay entirely, and get rid of the legislator's pension programme.)

Economy/Social Security (Here's a touchy issue. The first problem with it is that it was never designed as a long-term programme - it is/was a Depression-era stopgap measure which was only supposed to run for five years and then terminate. Keeping it running this long has required an unending and ineffective series of patches, and has succeeded only in creating a system about to collapse under its own mass an inertia. It's out of money, it's falling apart, and it really is a drain on the working economy - especially with the "baby boomers" approaching SS collection age... I have very mixed feelings about SS...)

Law/Drugs (It's amazing just how much money local and state governments make in the "War on Drugs" - why do you think it's set up to be unwinnable? This is going to really start a flame war, but if we were serious we'd have decriminalised dope a long time ago (which would remove a good deal of the street crime and incidental death due to "bad cuts" and "surprised OD's") and that would have solved a good half of the problem right away. Government doesn't want to win the "War on Drugs" because they'll lose money on it.)

Poverty/Homelessness (More of the same - there's no money to be made in solving the Homeless issue, so it's not happening. Follow the money...)

Economy/Subsidies (Sorry, but this is something else that needs to go away. It is not the job of the Federal government - or any other level - to pay for part or all of someone's success. You pass or fail on your own.)

Economy/Taxation (It's not that I mind paying taxes. But, like anywhere else I spend money, I want to know what I'm getting in return. If the roads aren't getting fixed, children aren't learning anything, and the city is largely falling apart, I'm inclined to not pay taxes anymore, since there's no "Return on Investment" happening. I don't mind paying my share of public works projects, but supporting the people working in a bloated government, subsidizing daily life of a segment that isn't working and WON'T work, and paying fees that provide nothing but a sinecure for the incompetent is not something I - or anyone else - should be paying for. Nor do I want to pay for more useless laws to be passed, or for a legal system that is constantly growing and already in danger of collapse under its own weight. How much longer before "What is not permitted is forbidden?" We already can't keep up with the increase in the body of law, and there are laws passed well over a hundred years ago which are useless but still in effect (and you CAN be prosecuted for them!) Legal trivia - did you know that the first California "Three Strikes" case was Petty Theft with a Prior Offense? I don't remember the item stolen, but there's a man doing 25-to-Life for less than $100. Where's the danger we're being protected from? What's the point of that?)


I could go on, but I've hijacked enough of this and I'll shut up now. Sorry.

5-90

 

[RichP]

I do the chamber of commerce thing, work with the workforce development people, etc. The state pays some big bucks to train and retrain workers on welfare, they pay their bills, medical, provide them transportation to training and home help them find a 'good' job then they 'graduate' and go out into the work force. Guess what, they can't get jobs that allow them to afford healthcare, support transportation, pay for day care, place to live, food. No wonder they don't want to get off welfare.``
There are alot of things wrong here and the corporations and govt are causing it. If they took those BILLIONS they are giving away overseas they could provide bluecross and blue shield to just about every citizen in this country. Instead they throw it away else where... There is something wrong when a country as rich as ours can't meet the basic needs of it's citizens.

 

[Urban Redneck]

Well eagle, those two job descriptions don't work for this behavior correcting, yelled at by parents for correcting those negative behaviors teacher

Then to correct the issue the teachers in my district were given a very clear description of the future of education. The CEO at this in-service said the following:
1) Educators will be second class citizens unless they look abroad for jobs.
2) The day of the laborers, mechanics, and general all around works is over.
3) We must look at getting other countries to have their children educator here.
4) Bend over and shove your head in, inhale deeply, and smell the rot of your own future (this I paraphrased)

Is this following your reasoning?

1. Unless educators figure out what the hell they are doing, ditch the NEA and stop whinning about every little thing, you're right. Holding the students hostage for a 8% increase in pay, which is way out of line with the rest of the country, is rediculous. Take care of your contract things during the summer. The would if they really cared about the students. My wife is a teacher and she flat out told me that the reason the strike happens during the school year is because otherwise no one cares. It's not that no one cares, it's that the pay rate per day worked is so much higher than the average person. A teacher works 180 per year in Illinois. At a wage of $40K for that amount of time that teacher is making $222 per day. In order to make that amount per day a person in the private sector would have to have a salary of $57720 per year. That is assuming that person works 260 days per year. Teachers need to step back into reality once in a while.

2. So the laborers, mechanics and such are going to be leaving the country, also? My father is a wrench for Jeep, don't see his job going away anytime soon. What about carpenters, brick layers, plumbers and such? Seems as though there are plenty of them around and more companies doing such labor springing up daily. Where is this work going to go and who is going to do it?

3. Other countries have sent and will continue to send their children over here for education, unless teachers keep helping the decline of the quality of education to the students.

4. Maybe he was saying that to make all of you educators wake up and smell reality of the private sector compaired to the situation the NEA has laid out for you.

In Chicago there is an outragous sum paid for education, something like $20K per year per student. It may be higher or lower, I don't remember the exact number. The private school I work at has a tuition of $17K per year. That is for class sizes that are 8 students per 1 teacher, college prep courses and a host of other things. For the amount Chicago is paying, they could send each student to class in private limos.

 

[Glenn B]

So you want MY tax dollars to fix your roads, and teach your kids... while supporting those that do not work? Or am I missing the point? I am not up for that.... I pay enough for my schools and public services as is.

Again, what you describe is a LOCAL issue. The Feds have no business in that aspect. In fact, I am sick and tired of seeing Fed money go in to paying for Earthquake repairs and Hurricane and Tornado damage. And people that keep rebuilding in flood plains... get real. DUH!!

But whining that YOUR community does not have enough crayons, while others are donating supplies so that those that are putting their life on the line can attempt to build good relations? Pretty poor excuse.

Concur. I often thet so busy playing "Globocop" that we really forget that we've no right to get the rest of the world on its feet until we can prove that we can do it at home...

Issues here I'd like to see fixed... (here in no particular order...)

Public Education (get the Federal government OUT of it - that's half the damn problem! Ever notice how all these Federal "initiatives" aren't working worth a damn? Start by disbanding the NEA - they're largely a political animal with little to no utility in education that I've seen. Teachers here? Prove me wrong...)

Poverty/Economy (Start with a tax holiday and lower the minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage all the time helps no-one but the government - it increases the tax base. Lower the MW, lower the cost of production, things can become more affordable. While we're at it, dissolve the "Federal Reserve" and give economic "ship" back its former anchor of the Gold Standard. We've rampant inflation because there's really nothing to stop it.)

Poverty/Welfare (If we have to maintain some sort of welfare system, I propose the following. 1) If you are able-bodied and out of work, you put in some sort of "community service" like the old Works Progress programme in order to get your cheque. 2) If you are out of work due to education, your "public service" contribution may be minimised or eliminated, but then you MUST go to trade school or college. Also, in either case you get jobs training and placement assistance and have to be back to work within, say, two years unless your education will require more time for a legitimate reason (an apprenticeship, say - but that should be paid by the outfit you are working for at the time. I also say that Medicare and SS require drastic reform - they're just another form of welfare...)

Politics/Term Limits (People are getting FAR too comfortable in Washington, and living in that rarefied air causes trouble with the rest of the country. MAKE them get out and live & work for a while so they can stay in touch. Hell, since most of them are independently wealthy, why not suspend or cut off their pay entirely, and get rid of the legislator's pension programme.)

Economy/Social Security (Here's a touchy issue. The first problem with it is that it was never designed as a long-term programme - it is/was a Depression-era stopgap measure which was only supposed to run for five years and then terminate. Keeping it running this long has required an unending and ineffective series of patches, and has succeeded only in creating a system about to collapse under its own mass an inertia. It's out of money, it's falling apart, and it really is a drain on the working economy - especially with the "baby boomers" approaching SS collection age... I have very mixed feelings about SS...)

Law/Drugs (It's amazing just how much money local and state governments make in the "War on Drugs" - why do you think it's set up to be unwinnable? This is going to really start a flame war, but if we were serious we'd have decriminalised dope a long time ago (which would remove a good deal of the street crime and incidental death due to "bad cuts" and "surprised OD's") and that would have solved a good half of the problem right away. Government doesn't want to win the "War on Drugs" because they'll lose money on it.)

Poverty/Homelessness (More of the same - there's no money to be made in solving the Homeless issue, so it's not happening. Follow the money...)

Economy/Subsidies (Sorry, but this is something else that needs to go away. It is not the job of the Federal government - or any other level - to pay for part or all of someone's success. You pass or fail on your own.)

Economy/Taxation (It's not that I mind paying taxes. But, like anywhere else I spend money, I want to know what I'm getting in return. If the roads aren't getting fixed, children aren't learning anything, and the city is largely falling apart, I'm inclined to not pay taxes anymore, since there's no "Return on Investment" happening. I don't mind paying my share of public works projects, but supporting the people working in a bloated government, subsidizing daily life of a segment that isn't working and WON'T work, and paying fees that provide nothing but a sinecure for the incompetent is not something I - or anyone else - should be paying for. Nor do I want to pay for more useless laws to be passed, or for a legal system that is constantly growing and already in danger of collapse under its own weight. How much longer before "What is not permitted is forbidden?" We already can't keep up with the increase in the body of law, and there are laws passed well over a hundred years ago which are useless but still in effect (and you CAN be prosecuted for them!) Legal trivia - did you know that the first California "Three Strikes" case was Petty Theft with a Prior Offense? I don't remember the item stolen, but there's a man doing 25-to-Life for less than $100. Where's the danger we're being protected from? What's the point of that?)


I could go on, but I've hijacked enough of this and I'll shut up now. Sorry.

5-90

 

[Urban Redneck]

I do the chamber of commerce thing, work with the workforce development people, etc. The state pays some big bucks to train and retrain workers on welfare, they pay their bills, medical, provide them transportation to training and home help them find a 'good' job then they 'graduate' and go out into the work force. Guess what, they can't get jobs that allow them to afford healthcare, support transportation, pay for day care, place to live, food. No wonder they don't want to get off welfare.``
There are alot of things wrong here and the corporations and govt are causing it. If they took those BILLIONS they are giving away overseas they could provide bluecross and blue shield to just about every citizen in this country. Instead they throw it away else where... There is something wrong when a country as rich as ours can't meet the basic needs of it's citizens.

It's not that the country can't meet the basics needed by the citizens. Soviet Russia couldn't, either. That's where the Left in the country want's to take us. Want to fix the problem? Cheap? Give every citizen $1M when they are born. That's it. They get nothing else. 90% of the citizens will be fine, 10% will be bitching that it isn't enough. Hmmm...sound familiar? "Oh, we wasted it on drugs or booze or gambling..." F*** them! For the money put into the social programs, each and everyone of them should be living in better houses than I am, should be driving a better car than I do, should be living the country club lifestyle. You look at the asshats at welfare offices and they are wearing $200 Air Jordans, $400 Fubu jackets. Where do they get the money? IF they can afford that, they are getting too much money from the government.

 

[5-90]

You may have missed something Glenn - or perhaps I got my own signals crossed between my brain and my fingers...

I don't want to support people who WON'T work - I expect them to do SOMETHING for what they get! If they're in otherwise good condition, and want to collect something, let's bring back WPA and get some jobs done in return! Any money paid out should get some tangible benefit, preferably in proportion to the amount paid (meaning, I'm tired of paying too much for "professional" services due to the courts-based "Get Rich Quick" schemes so popular..)

I'd like to see Federal taxes decreased, precisely because Disaster Response is a local issue - it should go no higher than the State (National Guard Activation) - we don't need the Feds in that one. I simply did not see fit to discuss it, as I felt my soapbox denting under my feet from wear (the problem with being a big guy...)

I do want children to be educated - but I don't think education is the end-all be-all of human existence - there are people who are acutally happy as janitors and such, and should be allowed to be so if they want. There are also highly intelligent people who like working with their hands, and that is fine as well. We can't have a world of CEOs, or there's no-one to do the work. However, if we are going to keep kids in school, I'd rather they be educated than babysat, and that requires that funding for education go into EDUCATION and not ADMINISTRATION. All teeth and no tail - as an Army man I'm sure you've heard that phrase... Buy supplies, pay the teachers, and hire only the MINIMUM NECESSARY adnimistrative staff - all other fuctions can be fulfilled by teachers or volunteers.

I also don't have any trouble with "Winning Hearts and Minds" - we should have done more of that in Vietnam. I hold this opinion irrespective of the one I have that says we shouldn't have gone to Vietnam in the first place, as it was really a French problem (reference "The French Indochina War" and Michelin's problems in the 1940's and 1950's.) I don't have any trouble with supporting the poeple on the sharp end of the spear - I've been there myself. However, if we haven't put the sharp end of the spear into anything, why prop them up? How about the United Christian Children's Fund helping kids out here before helping anywhere else? My main point is that we don't have any business telling peole how to live until we can lead by example.

I don't whine that my community doesn't have enough crayons, but I do feel that I do more to teach the children in my neighbourhood - especially with regards to maths, sciences, trades, and history & politics - then most of the schools do, but it may be something endemic to the SF Bay Area in these times. I went to a public school, but this was in Indiana and was years ago. I find that the problems with education are typically reflected in course catalogues for the community colleges - look at how many courses you see that should be high school material - or worse, middle school material - and you'll see what I mean. Besides, "not enough crayons" is an oversimplification of the problem, and most of the issues in current education seem to be political rather than fiscal. Eliminate the politics, and the fiscal issues will likely sort themselves out.

I suppose what I'm trying to explain in a rather roundabout way is that I want to support "public services" - but my definition of such does NOT rpt NOT include subsidized living, sinecures, and the overcompensation of jobs proven to be as useful as the human vermiform appendix. Did I miss anything?

5-90