Your Oil Recomendation

[xj88superjeep]

The simple answer is that if the bottle has API SM listed anywhere on the label it is probably no good for our engines. IF the SM is no where on the label, and SL is on the label, or CH is on the label if it is diesel oil, then you may be OK.

If it does not have SL, or CJ, but has CH on the label and is a diesel oil it is probably the best you can buy as far as zddp content is concerned.

Actually, SM is the same as SL, as it recently replaced SL as the highest rated oil. Even for formulations that stayed the same. Additionally, the diesel oils are also SL and SM rated for gasoline engines, and CJ-4 is the current best diesel rating.. The biggest factor, however, is NOT found on the label or in the API. That is the level of zddp. it can only be found in the PDS or MSDS online. A higher API rating is just a bonus that higher zddp oils have.

So if you want ZDDP, be careful of the following:

NOT ALL HIGH API RATED OILS HAVE ZDDP

however

All oils with alot of zddp usually have the best API ratings.

 

[Ecomike]

Actually, SM is the same as SL, as it recently replaced SL as the highest rated oil. Even for formulations that stayed the same. Additionally, the diesel oils are also SL and SM rated for gasoline engines, and CJ-4 is the current best diesel rating.. The biggest factor, however, is NOT found on the label or in the API. That is the level of zddp. it can only be found in the PDS or MSDS online. A higher API rating is just a bonus that higher zddp oils have.

So if you want ZDDP, be careful of the following:

NOT ALL HIGH API RATED OILS HAVE ZDDP

however

All oils with alot of zddp usually have the best API ratings.

BS. SM is not the same as SL!

SM rated oils do not have has a much ZDDP as SL only (No SM on the label) rated oils, in fact some SM rated oils have no ZDDP at all! Please read this entire thread.

CJ-4 and SM rated oils are not the best engine oils. Yes they are the newest formulas, but they are not the "best" oils for our engines.

The new oils, SM and CJ-4 are the result of compromises with EPA regarding formulation content limits for ZDDP (to increase Catalytic converter life), no more than x amount of ZDDP, whereas SL & CH-4 oils had a lower limit for ZDDP (no less than 12% and 18% respectively, IIRC). the SM & CJ-4 oils have an upper limit for ZDDP (about 10% and 12% resepectively) and have NO, I repeat NO lower limits for ZDDP, and thoses limits are not the same values. Thus SM is nothing like SL and CH-4 is nothing like the CJ-4, spec wise or formula wise.

API labels that list both SL and SM on the same label, are nothing more than outright legal lies by the oil companies that API permitted and wrote into the new SM label rules, simply because the SL rating had a lower limit for ZDDP that is higher than the new SM rated oil upper limit for ZDDP.

 

[tkjeeper]

I'm sure Mobil is great but it's not too cheap, this is straight from the Rotella desk and since its about 25 clams a gallon up here I'm going to Rotella 5W40 syn from Quaker state Q and am looking forward to the huge increase in zddp's

Dear customer:

Rotella T CJ-4 15W40 has a Zinc level of 1200ppm

Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 has a Zinc level of 1600ppm



Be aware that even though the antiwear level is high for Rotella oils, diesel engine oil formulations are different than engine oils for gasoline performance engines.



Hope this help.

Regards,

Xavier Henry
Technical Help Desk
Fuels & Lubricants
Shell Canada Products

Just wanted to repeat my post, this is a great thread and wanted to update it.

 

[88 Wagonman]

I know that the subject was touched on breifly earlier in the thread, but not much was said about the Crane Cams break in additive being used with SM rated oils. I know that Crane recommends using it at every oil change with flat tappet cams, and it comes out to be much cheaper for me to run it (5.99 a bottle) with my cheapo Chevron oil. My question is: does anyone else use it, and when added to 6 quarts of oil what does the level (PPM) of ZDDP end up to be?

 

[xj88superjeep]

BS. SM is not the same as SL!

SM rated oils do not have has a much ZDDP as SL only (No SM on the label) rated oils, in fact some SM rated oils have no ZDDP at all! Please read this entire thread.

CJ-4 and SM rated oils are not the best engine oils. Yes they are the newest formulas, but they are not the "best" oils for our engines.

The new oils, SM and CJ-4 are the result of compromises with EPA regarding formulation content limits for ZDDP (to increase Catalytic converter life), no more than x amount of ZDDP, whereas SL & CH-4 oils had a lower limit for ZDDP (no less than 12% and 18% respectively, IIRC). the SM & CJ-4 oils have an upper limit for ZDDP (about 10% and 12% resepectively) and have NO, I repeat NO lower limits for ZDDP, and thoses limits are not the same values. Thus SM is nothing like SL and CH-4 is nothing like the CJ-4, spec wise or formula wise.

API labels that list both SL and SM on the same label, are nothing more than outright legal lies by the oil companies that API permitted and wrote into the new SM label rules, simply because the SL rating had a lower limit for ZDDP that is higher than the new SM rated oil upper limit for ZDDP.

That's what I said!!! LOL just kidding!!! I see exactly what you mean. I'm slow, but I get it eventually...

Ironically, thats why i took the castrol tection diesel back and exchanged it for the GTX deisel, and never put 2 n 2 together.

 

[xj88superjeep]

If Rotella T CJ-4 15W40 has a Zinc level of 1200ppm, that would imply that an oil could be cj-4, but not SM rated, and it would imply that it's the best oil option out there (not necessarily the Rotella, but the cj-4 rating)... I can't believe I'm becoming an oil geek! LMAO

 

[xj88superjeep]

I just received an email back from Shell:

About 1200 ppm. Further info:
The issue around the older engines is the wear protection required by flat-tappets. Diesel engine oils like Rotella T are also rated for gasoline engines and have additional anti-wear additives at a content level that is comparable to the level that passenger car motor oils had in 2000 before the current problems with flat tappet engines began.

See the link below for more information about Rotella.
http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=rotella-en&FC2=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/press_release_2006/zzz_lhn.html&FC3=/rotella-en/html/iwgen/press_release_2006/cj-4_triple_1006.html

"Rotella w/ Triple Protection" meets API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4 for diesel and
API SM, SL, SJ, SH for gasoline engines. A data sheet may be found at the following link: http://www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/RotellaT(CJ-4).pdf

For more information about the API classifications, you may want to take a look the following link to API: http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/EngineOilGuide2006.pdf
If you have any additional questions, please call us at 800-231-6950. Thank you for your interest in Shell products.

Thanks for your email!

Regards,

Keith Perry
Technical Information Center

Customer Service: (800) 840-5737
Technical Support: (800) 231-6950

Shell is not telling the truth in their emails to you guys!

according to their own MSDS:

http://www.shellusserver.com/products/list.php?list=5070719

INGREDIENTS CAS# CONCENTRATION
Heavy Duty Motor Oil
Highly refined petroleum oils Mixture 90 - 99 %volume
Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate 68649-42-3 1 - 5 %volume
Proprietary additives Mixture 1 - 5 %volume

That is ONLY 100-500 ppm!!!!

 

[xj88superjeep]

Take a look through the MSDS's of ALL their Rotella T grades...
http://www.shellusserver.com/Trucking/products.php

NONE are anywhere near 1200 ppm! Shell Rotella is BS!

 

[sprngfldxj]

Can you help me find th MSDS for Wal MArt Super Tech 10-40 High Mileage?
I cant seem to find it anywhere.

 

[MCartwright]

I wont say that's garbage, but I will say that I hope the synthetic you are using has the same heavy duty anti wear properties as my 15w 40 diesel, because I don't care how they market it, the synthetic oils are thinner, and it would be a weaker wall of protection between my older working parts. would they well lubricated, sure, but a 20 year old 4.0 was NOT made to run synth PERIOD!!! besides, my oil pressure is much better, and my truck runs better with thicker oil.

I like 10-40 M1 HM in the summer, 10-30 in the winter. Mine is a late model though 01, and the seals are still good, holding up well with the synthetic. For an older I6, your preference might be the best. It is a lot to consider for each individual! Good info here to help make the decision though.

 

[Ecomike]

Shell is not telling the truth in their emails to you guys!

according to their own MSDS:

http://www.shellusserver.com/products/list.php?list=5070719

INGREDIENTS CAS# CONCENTRATION
Heavy Duty Motor Oil
Highly refined petroleum oils Mixture 90 - 99 %volume
Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate 68649-42-3 1 - 5 %volume
Proprietary additives Mixture 1 - 5 %volume

That is ONLY 100-500 ppm!!!!

1% is actually 10,000 ppm, 5% is 50,000 ppm. ZDDP is only partly zinc, and partly phosphate, the rest of the molecule is sulphur (di-thio) and hydrocarbon (di-alkyl), di meaning two.

IIRC correctly all the newest diesel oils, showing CJ-4 with or with out the SM on the label, are about 1200 ppm of zinc as ZDDP, but if you can find old diesel oil with just CH-4 (and not SM or CJ-4) on the label, it has 1800 ppm of zinc as ZDDP. So far I have been able to find old stocks here in Houston, and even some old API spec oils in new containers of store brand oils like Autozones 15W40 diesel oil with just the CJ-4 spec on it. It is packaged by Coastal Oil for them, who packs and private labels most everyones major brand oils. Also found API SL only oil recently at Autozone.

 

[xj88superjeep]

1% is actually 10,000 ppm, 5% is 50,000 ppm.

DAMN DAMN! Once again, I was a little cornfused... This number crunching/converting stuff is crazy, especially trying to get a STRAIGHT answer. Because even though I got my decimal all bent out of place, Shell is saying their zddp = 1200 ppm.

zddp is short for zinc dialkyldithiophosphate
their MSDS states:

Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate 68649-42-3 = 1 - 5 %volume

SOOO, how does 10,000-50,000ppm of zddp = 1200ppm of zddp???
I am going to take a break from trying to sort out oil formulas and equations for a bit.
I am not using Shell anyway, and I'm satisfied with what I do use, but someone else might want to get to the bottom of it.

 

[MisterFubar]

An MSDS is never going to give you an exact PPM of a proprietary formula. It's not a recipe.

 

[xj88superjeep]

IIRC correctly all the newest diesel oils, showing CJ-4 with or with out the SM on the label, are about 1200 ppm of zinc as ZDDP

FWIW, Castrol Tection deisel is API CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF, SM and has zero zinc or zddp.

Castrol GTX deisel is API CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF, SL, SJ and has 1300ppm zddp
Now I am retiring from the thread... (I think)

 

[xj88superjeep]

An MSDS is never going to give you an exact PPM of a proprietary formula. It's not a recipe.

It is a SAFTY data sheet, and there is an enormous discrepancy between 1200 and 10,000-50,000!

 

[falcon556]

The STP oil treatment in the blue bottle is supposed to contain ZDDP.
Any opinions?

 

[xj88superjeep]

The STP oil treatment in the blue bottle is supposed to contain ZDDP.
Any opinions?

The general consensus on additives is that if you get the right oil, you never need additives. unless your motor is dying, and you are using additives to squeeze a few hundred more miles out of it. The only other time I think they are beneficial is in between an extended oil drain to keep the viscosity up to par, and I would use Lucas oil stabilizer for that. I have searched the FTC website and found no complaints against Lucas for any of their products. Alternatively, DuraLube, Slick50, Restore, even STP, and a few I've probably missed, have had to settle complaints with the FTC. IIRC, Amsoil is another good one. From what I understand, they had a case with the FTC, but I believe they won theirs.

 

[Ecomike]

It is a SAFTY data sheet, and there is an enormous discrepancy between 1200 and 10,000-50,000!

It's all in the english, gotta love the language. They usually say something like 1200 ppm of zinc AS ZDDP. The 1200 ppm refers to the mass (mg) of zinc in the oil (L). PPM (parts per million) is a loose reference to mg/l or mg/kg (miligrams per litter, or miligrams per kilogram) that varies with density of the material (in this case oil).

Based on the 1200 ppm of zinc, and 1% ZDDP, and a rough recollection of molecular weights (I don't have the exact formula of ZDDP handy) The molecular weight of ZDDP is apx 10 times the molecular weight of zinc so the mass ratio of zinc ( in ZDDP ) to the mass (molecular weight) of ZDDP in a single molecule of ZDDP is probably a 12/100 (or 1200/10000) ratio.

falcon556,

Yes the blue STP has ZDDP in it, enough for one bottle to raise the ZDDP concentration in 6 quarts of oil by about 250 ppm as I recall.

 

[Ecomike]

The general consensus on additives is that if you get the right oil, you never need additives. unless your motor is dying, and you are using additives to squeeze a few hundred more miles out of it. The only other time I think they are beneficial is in between an extended oil drain to keep the viscosity up to par, and I would use Lucas oil stabilizer for that. I have searched the FTC website and found no complaints against Lucas for any of their products. Alternatively, DuraLube, Slick50, Restore, even STP, and a few I've probably missed, have had to settle complaints with the FTC. IIRC, Amsoil is another good one. From what I understand, they had a case with the FTC, but I believe they won theirs.

Note that you said "IF you get the right oil"! I have yet find such a product, LOL!:bawl: :laugh3:

Obviously you have not read my threads here on "Snake OIL" products! Try the advanced search in the OEM thread, use Ecomike as the author and "Snake OIL" as the search words. I for one am quite impressed with Restore. Be sure and read about the Ford Taurus I used Restore on 6000 miles ago. It even pasted the EPA gestopo tests last week!

That said, you are right, a good engine with no problems, should not need oil additives except for this ZDDP problem with our older flat tappet engines, and STP blue is mostly ZDDP and some oil carrier.

 

[xjtrailrider]

For those who have a Advance Auto in your area you can order Rotella T 10w-30 even though its not on the shelf. I just ordered a case (3 gallons) for $10.98 a gallon.

I've been a Mobile 1 user for years but wanted to try some high ZDDP oil for a change and so far so good. Getting ready for the first change out of Rotella.